Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (Full Version)

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Icedawg -> Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/25/2019 5:58:14 PM)

If you leave units in mobile mode, they tend to get hammered if attacked. Also, units in defensive deployment are supposed to get a supply bonus. So, it would seem that you would be an idiot to leave units in mobile mode at the end of your turn - no benefit and lots to lose. Can anyone confirm/refute this?




Hellen_slith -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/25/2019 6:07:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

If you leave units in mobile mode, they tend to get hammered if attacked. Also, units in defensive deployment are supposed to get a supply bonus. So, it would seem that you would be an idiot to leave units in mobile mode at the end of your turn - no benefit and lots to lose. Can anyone confirm/refute this?


My understanding is that digging in units not set to tactical or local reserve will boost overall supply percentage thing.

It can be a real chore digging in, thus I wish there were some function button that say, "DIG IN THE UNITS THAT ARE NOT ALREADY DUG?" and you say, "YES!!!" and it digs them in for you. That would be esp. helpful for disorganized units that can still dig in but not move.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/25/2019 7:19:59 PM)

Not Moving a unit will gain it a Supply Boost. Digging in gains no boost [in Supply].

Units in Defend status gain a x2 Defense Bonus over units left in Mobile status. Therefore, always Dig-In if you can, if its feasible. Note that some scenarios have a reduced Entrenchment Rate, so the less Movement you have left, the less likely your chance of getting a Defend Status. And yes, it would be nice to have an Easy Button to 'Dig in All', but that is not really practical as it could create adverse results. To me, it's one of those little things to keep in mind as I phase thru all the units round after round - 'time to dig in, or still some use in this unit?'.

EDIT: To clarify, this is not referring to Artillery units. See Lobster's comment below.




Icedawg -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/25/2019 9:54:38 PM)

Thanks for the input guys (even if you disagree about the supply bonus). I will just trudge through the formation lists and dig in everyone close to the front lines.

No offense Hellen_slith, but I'm going with sPzAbt653 for now on the supply thing. Based on his number of posts, he has been playing this game for a LONG time. I'm not saying I think you're wrong, it just seems that he has a lot of time invested in this game.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/25/2019 10:13:42 PM)

Well, we all can be wrong at times, but since the only reason that I am here is because I found much needed help when I joined this Forum, so I feel it's returning the favor. Therefore, I only try to post what I am fairly surely positive of, otherwise it is of no help. However, sometimes memory does fail [;)]




Lobster -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/25/2019 11:52:43 PM)

There are reasons not to dig in. If you have artillery units that you want to have on high supply the next turn then don't dig them in. Digging them in could cause them to use supply by supporting units. If I'm planning to go on the offensive in an area and I want to be sure my artillery has the highest supply possible I will leave them mobile. If I'm on the defense I will sometimes conduct limited attacks just to use up my opponents artillery supply level.

Also:
Defending The unit is deployed to defend
the location. There are defensive and supply
advantages for this deployment.




demyansk -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 12:32:19 AM)

Good point Lobster, great game




Curtis Lemay -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 12:48:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

There are reasons not to dig in. If you have artillery units that you want to have on high supply the next turn then don't dig them in. Digging them in could cause them to use supply by supporting units. If I'm planning to go on the offensive in an area and I want to be sure my artillery has the highest supply possible I will leave them mobile. If I'm on the defense I will sometimes conduct limited attacks just to use up my opponents artillery supply level.

Also:
Defending The unit is deployed to defend
the location. There are defensive and supply
advantages for this deployment.

My guess is that the supply "advantage" referred to there for digging in is that the unit tends to not move in that deployment.




Lobster -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 1:37:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Also:
Defending The unit is deployed to defend
the location. There are defensive and supply
advantages for this deployment.

My guess is that the supply "advantage" referred to there for digging in is that the unit tends to not move in that deployment.


But movement's use of supply is already mentioned. You are the one who can see the code. All we can see is the manual. [;)]

"Manuel, relay instructions." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxZGYjU1PRc




Hellen_slith -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 2:44:38 PM)

I was simply misremembering "Transport Asset Sharing":

"Units that do not move and are not assigned a Local or Tactical Reserve status will temporarily lend a portion of their transport assets (equipment with a transport capability, such as trucks, horse teams, etc.) to their parent Formation (and possibly to others depending upon the Formation Support Level) to aid in distributing Supply to other units."

I had forgotten that Transport Asset Sharing is not dependent upon digging in.





Curtis Lemay -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 3:43:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Also:
Defending The unit is deployed to defend
the location. There are defensive and supply
advantages for this deployment.

My guess is that the supply "advantage" referred to there for digging in is that the unit tends to not move in that deployment.


But movement's use of supply is already mentioned. You are the one who can see the code. All we can see is the manual. [;)]

"Manuel, relay instructions." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxZGYjU1PRc

That's what I meant: It gets the No Movement advantage.

And you're fully powered to test this out yourself. If you move a unit, then dig it in, does it get a supply boost? Or does it have to wait until next turn to get one?




Lobster -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 5:35:20 PM)

Defending The unit is deployed to defend
the location. There are defensive and supply
advantages for this deployment.

Not Moving The unit is deployed to defend
the location. There are defensive and supply
advantages for this deployment.

So, once again the manual obfuscates things by using explanations that are not explanations at all but smoke to make things more difficult to understand. Why even include the ditty about Defending when the boost for supply when not moving is already explained in another place? It is entirely unnecessary and just makes things more confusing by implying that there is another layer of supply enhancement available by digging in. The manual is full of bull carp like this.

Wanna see how a manual should be written? Look at Simulations Publications manuals. If a rule references an earlier or later rule that earlier or later rule is referenced to reduce ambiguities. Today manuals are just slapped together because, basically, no on cares to make them right.





Lobster -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 5:58:43 PM)

Also, note that movement recovery is done twice
for each side (start of each player-turn).

So, with the new turn rules supply is determined in between each player's phase. Movement is also recovered. Does this mean that if player one digs in during his player turn, when supply is determined in Player twos portion of the turn Player One gets a supply bonus for having not moved even though he moved and used supply in the same time increment Player Two did?




Curtis Lemay -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 5:59:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Defending The unit is deployed to defend
the location. There are defensive and supply
advantages for this deployment.

Not Moving The unit is deployed to defend
the location. There are defensive and supply
advantages for this deployment.

So, once again the manual obfuscates things by using explanations that are not explanations at all but smoke to make things more difficult to understand. Why even include the ditty about Defending when the boost for supply when not moving is already explained in another place? It is entirely unnecessary and just makes things more confusing by implying that there is another layer of supply enhancement available by digging in. The manual is full of bull carp like this.

Wanna see how a manual should be written? Look at Simulations Publications manuals. If a rule references an earlier or later rule that earlier or later rule is referenced to reduce ambiguities. Today manuals are just slapped together because, basically, no on cares to make them right.



Did you do any tests?




Lobster -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 8:47:29 PM)

Tests? Isn't there a manual that tells us how things work? Isn't that what a manual does? There shouldn't have to be any tests. Here's what we do. Throw out the manual. Don't even include one. Let everyone test everything to try and see how it works. [;)]




Curtis Lemay -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 8:57:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Tests? Isn't there a manual that tells us how things work? Isn't that what a manual does? There shouldn't have to be any tests. Here's what we do. Throw out the manual. Don't even include one. Let everyone test everything to try and see how it works. [;)]

OK, I guess we'll just have to wait and see if Ole Norm makes an appearance here. I'm sure he'll remember and explain it to us.




Lobster -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 10:13:32 PM)

Defending The unit is deployed to defend
the location. There are defensive advantages
for this deployment.

Takes away the ambiguities. The manual is full of things that could use a little clarification.

Do you really think all new players are going to bother to test anything? Some of them won't even know there's a Matrix website. They'll just go play something that does a better job of explaining how things work in the game like GG WitE.




Lobster -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 10:16:16 PM)

BTW, when will interdiction's opportunity bombardment be fixed and when will an explanation about it be put in the manual? Doing a search for 'opportunity' in the manual gets about six or seven hits, none of them about interdiction or bombardment.




Curtis Lemay -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/26/2019 11:31:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Do you really think all new players are going to bother to test anything?


How about a member of the Development Team testing a few things?




Lobster -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/27/2019 1:52:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Do you really think all new players are going to bother to test anything?


How about a member of the Development Team testing a few things?


[:D]

All I did was drag the inadequacies of the manual out. I know how it works. You know how it works. But someone reading that portion of the manual would get the idea that somehow being [D] gives a layer of extra supply that just isn't there. And the only thing you can come up with is for people to test it even though they might not have any idea how the game actually functions. The manual is there for a reason and it isn't to sow confusion though sometimes it seems that way. Instead of people testing things why not fix the manual so it's clear. Some of that confusing stuff has been in there since 1998. This is one of them.

Defending The unit is deployed to defend
the location. There are defensive and supply
advantages for this deployment.






Curtis Lemay -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/27/2019 2:06:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Do you really think all new players are going to bother to test anything?


How about a member of the Development Team testing a few things?


[:D]

All I did was drag the inadequacies of the manual out. I know how it works. You know how it works. But someone reading that portion of the manual would get the idea that somehow being [D] gives a layer of extra supply that just isn't there. And the only thing you can come up with is for people to test it even though they might not have any idea how the game actually functions. The manual is there for a reason and it isn't to sow confusion though sometimes it seems that way. Instead of people testing things why not fix the manual so it's clear. Some of that confusing stuff has been in there since 1998. This is one of them.

Defending The unit is deployed to defend
the location. There are defensive and supply
advantages for this deployment.


How do we know the extra layer of supply isn't there until someone does some tests? How can we get the manual right if we don't know that it's wrong? That's why we have a suite of testers on the Development Team.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/27/2019 7:13:05 PM)

quote:

why not fix the manual so it's clear.

We talked about his last month and it generated little response, so I'll re-post what I said here. I'll also clarify that this is something that we the community should do, not something we should expect the developers to do [they maintain a What's New file].

We need to make a new PDF, copy and paste relevant passages from the original manual, add in new rules, add in clarifications, keep the manual graphics where appropriate, eliminate fluff and repetitions where possible. It wouldn't be officially distributed by Matrix [but would need their consent due to use of original parts of the manual and consent from Bob for use of his What's New], that way it wouldn't be necessary for Bob to proof read every passage [he can if he wants and it would be nice, but we don't want to go into anything expecting it]. Someone would need to maintain it, most likely on a thread here. Everyone could suggest clarifications/additions and obviously we would have no problem reaching a consensus on all matters

So, somebody with PDF talents start a thread and let's get to it !




Zovs -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/27/2019 8:05:29 PM)

Manual Issues:

The manual states:

Force Supply Stockpile (16.13.1) for more information.

But there is no 16.13.1 section.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/27/2019 9:22:05 PM)

Thanks Don. I don't really see an applicable section, either. Maybe it should point to '9.1.7. Supply'.




Lobster -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/27/2019 9:30:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Manual Issues:

The manual states:

Force Supply Stockpile (16.13.1) for more information.

But there is no 16.13.1 section.


Likely it's referencing page 56 bottom left column.




Magpius -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/27/2019 11:06:10 PM)

Forget PDF, a multi-authored (peer reviewed) public wiki site, should be a priority.
The PDF is ultimately layout eye candy.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/27/2019 11:08:56 PM)

I like the idea of a Wiki Site just for TOAW stuff. Should we start a new thread and call it the "TOAW Wiki" or something like that. How do we get it set up like the other public Wiki sites?




Curtis Lemay -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/27/2019 11:57:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Manual Issues:

The manual states:

Force Supply Stockpile (16.13.1) for more information.

But there is no 16.13.1 section.

16.24.1

A lot of sections got added to 16.




Zovs -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/28/2019 1:13:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Manual Issues:

The manual states:

Force Supply Stockpile (16.13.1) for more information.

But there is no 16.13.1 section.

16.24.1

A lot of sections got added to 16.


Right, but out of the box the default manual is severely lacking the info. Hence my post.




Magpius -> RE: Is there any point to not digging in all of your units towards the end of your turn? (5/28/2019 8:33:59 AM)

It doesn't need to be as complex as a wiki site. Even a google doc, with a link placed on the forum here would be enough.




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