Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (Full Version)

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Seminole -> Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/23/2019 2:38:59 AM)

Germans open with a clear effort to avoid combat in lieu of concentrating on encirclement.
I presume OKH hoped to avoid routs and the possibility of leaving formations on the map in favor of surrender.

When Stalin convenes with STAVKA he is presented with the first map showing the strategic situation facing the Soviet Union.


German motorized infantry are able to enter Riga while a Pzr Div and Mot Div cross the Daugava south of the Aiviekste river.

German units of Panzer Group 2 and 3 create a loose, but effective cordon just west of Minsk.

STAKVA sends orders to the units of Northwestern and Western Front to seek link up and attempt to cut off the truck convoys feeding the German spearheads.

By the barest of margins Northwest and Western Fronts are able to effectively link up and create a Soviet supply chain from the Pripyat Marshes to the Baltic ports.

The key to enter effort was found in the southeastern edge of the 2nd Panzer Group's advance. A Soviet rifle division holding the edge of a light wood on the rail line to Gomel south of Minsk thwarted a hasty attack by the 4th Pzr Div. Frustrated the Germans called up the 3rd Pzr Div, responsible for the Group's right flank, to force the Russians back from their position. This aggressiveness opens a 10 mile gap in the area patrolled between the 18th Pzr Div and the forwardmost German Panzers.

The resulting exploitation results in the isolation of almost the entirety of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Pzr Group.


Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/23/2019 2:51:20 AM)

Southwestern Front finds itself trapped by 1st Panzer Group's advance. But the cordon is loose, and by marching back into Tarnopol and east of Stanislav supply lines are re-opened and a Pzr Div is isolated.


With the success in restoring lines of communication to most of the units trapped at the opening of hostilities the Soviet High Command decides to set up blocking positions as close to the German spearheads as possible, taking advantage of terrain wherever possible to boost meager combat effectiveness.

Most of the Russian air force is recalled for re-organization while several commanders enter re-education.

Overall strategic picture after Soviet moves are completed:


KGB efforts to access General Halder's diary have failed, but Stalin would have definitely liked to see what the entries looked like as June drew to a close.


chaos45 -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/23/2019 10:47:54 AM)

that's petty much game over for the Axis as all that ground will convert back to soviet control and slow the germans at least 1-2 turns which are extremely critical in the early game.

Bear1888 -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/23/2019 11:18:06 AM)


what a nightmare for the axis player. You literary opened all pockets. He will need few turns to bring order into the chaos.

I downloaded and studied a map from a user here which showed areas one must overrun in the north, so he can attack all soviet units and they rout into manageable pockets. I try to find this map and post it here.

Good work with the first turn.

EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/23/2019 1:46:25 PM)

Game over for the Axis I think.

@Bear: It could be this thread?


Some pinned threads in the war room deal with this too IIRC.

Bear1888 -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/23/2019 1:55:04 PM)

Yes. Post #19 from the user ketza. it really works. the northern soviet units rout into existing pockets and do not escape.

MattFL -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/23/2019 8:00:31 PM)

I wouldn't go as far as to say "game over", but it's not good. It's the hexes flipping back as Chaos said that's the killer.....But really, all he needs to do is reconnect the pockets to his main line and then expand them and make them a lot more air tight and all of those hexes will flip back to his control. In the end it's costs him one turn. Well, assuming he's able to avoid making the same mistake on Turn 2. Lesson for the Axis is to restrict movement between the pockets you make because if you don't, this is what can happen.

On the flip side, Russian Turn 1 placement looks unnecessarily forward to me as well.....

thedoctorking -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/23/2019 10:52:10 PM)

The German armor all starts with an oversupply of fuel so they should still have plenty of movement points on turn 2. But what this will do is reduce their MP for turn 3. All those guys in the Lvov and Bialystok pockets will ultimately die, but the Germans won't be up to the Soviet MLR until turn 6 or 7. That means that probably only one of major objectives is still in play, barring major errors on your part going forward. Busting the Bialystok pocket is a really big deal. Germans got greedy in AGC. Nice job.

Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/24/2019 3:47:35 AM)

Turn 2

Destroyed units remains low for the Soviets, as the Axis try to re-establish their encirclements and wait to compel surrender in favor of routs and shatters.


Air losses are light due to the re-organization efforts.


Stalin reviews the latest strategic map with STAVKA. The Germans have re-established their encirclements and also made minor advances both toward Pskov and Mogilev.
German infantry move up the Baltic coast and seize the Soviet port to ensure isolation.
A solid cordon of panzer and motorized regiments put together a tight containment. The Soviets don't have the strength to dislodge the units yet. Too much is trapped or still frozen.


On the south side the same story, a solid wall of regiments, but Southwestern Front has more available to respond.
3/13th Pzr is the weakest German unit that the Soviets can muster the most strength against.


Further south on the cordon recon identifies Rumanian cavalry. Southwestern Front wastes no time throwing what it can at this formation.
Koroteev commands 55th Rifle Corps' two rifle divisions into a hasty attack. He botches the commitment while the Rumanian cavalry rally impressively.


17th Rifle Corps follows up with a deliberate attack from the 164th Rifle Division whose patriotic fervor carries the day.


Farther south Southern Front is ordered to punish the Romanians for their poor decision making.
Infantry and NKVD troops advances against the Romanians near the Black Sea while north of Kishinev cavalry wheel and reposition themselves astride German infantry's lines of communication.


Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/24/2019 4:04:04 AM)

The Germans have cleared the Southwestern Front units that were pocketed on the southwestern edge of the Pripyat.
1st Panzer Group foregoes any plunging attack for a flanking move against the southern edge of the Pripyat to pin some Soviet armor in their fortifications.

The counter attacks by Southwestern Front have isolated:
14th Pzr Div
11th Pzr Div
1st Rum Arm Div

Southwestern Front units attempt to position themselves to maintain contact between formation when they are again cut off.
New units are brought up to the Dnepr to bolster Kiev. Trenching begins on the high ground on the western edge of the river.


Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/24/2019 4:34:12 AM)

East of Brest-Litovsk the Western Front sees an opportunity. A gap in the German lines allow for Soviet rifle divisions to cut the rail line behind the German FBD
Meanwhile, a Soviet cavalry unit routed from Western Front into the swamps had been slightly withdrawn and re-assigned to Southwestern Front to recover on turn 1.
With new leadership they advance northwest and complete the re-link with beleaguered Western Front.


Without the Baltic port the Russians cannot create a new encirclement, but with a few carefully positioned units they are able to put additional strain, fatigue, and attrition on German units.
Totenkopf SS Mot Div is the unit that forayed northeast, and it is cut off for it's trouble.
On the easternmost edge of the Axis invasion 3rd Pzr Div has crossed the Berezina, but is 97 MP from railhead due to the pressure placed on the thin cordon of supplies trickling through the Baltics.
18th Pzr Div and 29th Mot Div on the northern edge of the Pripyat are both over 100 MP from railhead. The German infantry farther west of them are over 100 MP from rail as well.


AGC is in an absolute furball with Western Front. The cracks in the German cauldrons have made the 'wait and surrender' approach the Axis took a costly one.

Final strategic situation after Soviet moves are complete.


chaos45 -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/24/2019 9:42:59 AM)

stand by my earlier comment, now the German tanks are out of gas for the most part and still don't have the pockets...

Bear1888 -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/24/2019 10:21:04 AM)

it's amazing. Most pockets are open again and like chaos said, this tiny German panzer regimental combat teams have zero fuel remaining and can not build up to divisions again with all that zoc chaos. very good job. If you continue this way, you even may hold him at land bridge and dnjepr up to turn 12 or so.

xhoel -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/24/2019 1:10:40 PM)

Game over for the Axis. Really good hold on your part Seminole but the German Command has made mistakes that they cannot recover from. What is the experience level of your opponent and what is your experience level?

MattFL -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/24/2019 5:32:13 PM)

Man oh man. Again? Should be called "Bitter Beginning"

I think you should be a sport and give him a "mulligan" and start over before you guys waste your time....As much satisfaction as you must feel doing this, the game isn't fun when one sided.....

A21 -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/26/2019 6:12:43 PM)

Did the game continue?

Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/26/2019 6:18:16 PM)

My opponent told me earlier in the week he'd be busy until Friday.
I just sent him turn 8, but want to keep the AAR a bit behind the action so I can publish full info without revealing anything particularly useful.

Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/27/2019 6:13:14 AM)

Turn 3

The Courland pocket is cleared, but overall 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Panzer Armies hold the line.
3rd Pzr Div actually pulls back to the western side of the Berezina when it detects Russian formations on its flanks.
The German infantry still hold off on trying to clear out Western Front. The lines of supply is cut and the cavalry that made it possible find themselves nearly surrounded.

In the South the Germans choose to pinch off the armored formations on their left flank, while settling for just closing the ring again on the Stanislav Pocket.
Further south on the Rumanian border the advancing Soviets find themselves cut off from an advance by German infantry.

Beginning Map


By not pressing the issue against units that were not isolated the destroyed units are misleading.


Ground Losses so far don't reflect the units trapped in Western and Southwestern Front.


Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/27/2019 6:30:01 AM)

Accepting the fate of the encircled units of Southwestern Front STAVKA prepares the defenses of Kiev.
The encircled units move toward the best defensive terrain they can find, to buy time for Southwest Front's efforts to build a new line along the river east of Zhitomir.
Freshly raised formations join those recently released to begin digging in on the Dnepr.


Formantions inside the Stanislav Pocket encircle Hungarian cavalry while Russian cavalry press south in Rumania.


Near the Black Sea coast 51st Rifle Div marches into Galati and Braila. Soviet propaganda seizes on this event to urge all Axis Allies to reconsider their dangerous course. Rumors that the leadership of 51st Rifle Div are in fact looking to defect are bolstered by the fact they have not sought out contact with the enemy.


STAVKA moves the bulk of reinforcements to begin building a line along the Luga river under the command of Northern Front while Northwest Front pulls back to screen the German advance.


Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/27/2019 7:01:01 AM)

Estonia is screened to buy time while a defensive line is anchored on Pskov running south along prepared defenses behind the Sinyaya river.
Unable to link up with forces south of the Daugava river they do manage to isolate a Pzr Div that was trying to regain contact with the Landsers.


While Western Front is unable to break out it is still tying up the advance of the German infantry. In fact, a German rifle division finds itself unable to secure supplies in the furball.
In the swamps the Russian cavalry isolate two more German infantry that move forward too aggressively. Forcing a rescue of these units is another way to try and snatch some initiative. If I can drag a few German units into these swamps for an equal number of Russian formations I'll consider it a win.
To that end another cavalry formation is railed in to help hold the right flank in the swamp, bringing the total of highly mobile formations to four.
STAVKA forms up a new MLR. When the Minsk Pocket is liquidated Western Front will assume command of this line in front of Smolensk.
248th Rifle Div stands alone at the western edge of the swamps on the Ulla river as a tripwire on the way to Smolensk.


Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/27/2019 7:10:39 AM)

Overall seven Axis formations are isolated this turn.
Gomel and Mogilev Arm and HI factories evacuated and Kiev 1 HI evacuated to Chkalov with remaining rail.


Strategic map after moves.


Telemecus -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/27/2019 9:36:39 AM)


ORIGINAL: Seminole
Near the Black Sea coast 51st Rifle Div marches into Galati and Braila.

I have seen this in quite a few games now and had to remind others in team games to defend Galati. Losing Galati means LOSING FACTORIES - and they do not repair they are gone for ever. Even if you do not mind losing manpower centres to marauding, they absolutely should not allow losing factories.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (4/30/2019 4:04:13 PM)

German player should be learning some valuable lessons on ZOC this game.

teun557 -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (5/19/2019 8:05:38 PM)

This is my very first MP game and only my second run in the game itself. I do appear to be very outclassed but I am keen on seeing this game through.

Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (5/20/2019 3:53:33 AM)

We're up to turn 11 now.
Game is in another hiatus until the end of the month, but I'll continue updating the AAR.

Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (5/20/2019 4:38:03 AM)

Turn 4



Overall strategic map at beginning of turn:


Western Front is liquidated almost entirely.


1/3 of a million Soviets are bagged.


Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (5/20/2019 4:47:53 AM)

4th Panzer Group heads north toward Tallinn and east toward Velikiye Luki.
The northern screen is pulled back and a line is created from the northern shores of Lake Peipus to the Baltic, with a division screening from the swamps to the west. Tallinn is also defended.

The advance toward Moscow is more tepid. Reserve Front takes control of the defenses around Vitebsk and Smolensk. The land bridge is filled in.

STAVKA orders additional units to the Pripyat swamps. Operation Honey Pot will be a bid to draw Axis forces into the swamps, and thereby keep them from the front lines farther east. Approximately a dozen German formations are currently embroiled. Goal is to hold them in the swamp as long as possible.

The Stanislav Pocket continues to hold out as 1st Panzer Group overtakes Proskurov and envelops the mechanized forces screening Vinnista.
Southwest and Southern Fronts drop back to screen the Dnepr approaches. This should force his infantry to spend some time marching up before being able to join the fight.

The decision is made to create a fortress in Odessa, and defend it to the last.
The adventurous elements of Southern Front that marched into Romania are isolated, but they'll die heroes of the Soviet Union.


Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (6/23/2019 3:45:39 AM)

Turn 5



Ground Losses


Evac 3 HI from Odessa
Evac 3 HI and 3 Arm from Kiev
Evac 3 Arm from Kirovograd

Strategic overview at beginning of Soviet July 17th, 1941:


Pull back slightly in the north as Estonia has been largely overrun
Forcing him to commit to clear islands and Tallinn by leaving behind overrun formations.
Pskov is threatened on southern flank by a narrow penetration of the river line so we pull all that we can back to the next line of resistance with a soft screen behind them.
One Tank Division can't be saved, lacks fuel to escape after combat with German units trying to hold the line.
Abandon the swamps south of Pskov because of threatened flanks. Anchor on the hills and woods


Bring in reserves to screen in front of MLR blocking the advance on Moscow and Smolensk:


3rd Army (Western Front) takes command of Pripyat Defense on north side.
Relocate 6th and 12th Army HQs (Southwestern Front) to Pripyat from Stanislav Pocket.

Over a dozen enemy divisions are engaged in the Pripyat, trying to avoid move interference with crucial LOCs.
As long as practicable we'll keep a cavalry/infantry force in this area to keep Landsers from reaching the real front lines. When Gomel or Kiev are threatened this effort will need to be reined in.


Kiev defenses are in place when the panzers finally reach the outskirts. Stalin makes it clear that no more retreat will be tolerated.


Odessa will also be made a strongpoint.


Strategic picture after Soviet attacks and re-alignment:


Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (6/24/2019 2:03:44 AM)

Turn 6

Overall strategic picture at beginning of turn:


Pskov is encircled and a new line is formed behind the Plyussa river. The Baltic end of the line, the shortest line to Leningrad, is the most heavily reinforced.


Tallinn holds up against three assaults. Not wanting to leave these men to their fate transport is arranged, but in an attempt to surprise and mystify the Germans the barges of troops head west and south.
The Germans are not fooled. Three separate air attacks find the flotilla and barely more than 10% of each division disembark.


The land bridge is breached on the southern end:


With the fortified line cracked Reserve Front requests to pull back from the prepared defenses to gain space from the German infantry and introduce some missing depth in their defensive line. Stakva sends in additional fresh reserves to backstop any panzer thrusts.


The Germans are trying to reduce their commitment to the swamp with a shift to regimental screens. With the rails we can pull out of this area quickly. For now the trade off of German units in the rear seems worth the price we're paying. Just don't want to get them caught in here.


The Stanislav Pocket is further reduced, but the 44th Mtn Div refuses to surrender.


Southwestern Front continues to move reinforcements from Stavka into the Dnepr line. Further south Southern Front cavalry harass enemy supply lines before falling back to another river line. Axis minors are tagged with the responsibility of conquering Odessa.


Overall strategic picture at the end of the turn:


Seminole -> RE: Teun557 (Axis) vs Seminole (Soviet) - Bitter End (7/4/2019 7:16:26 AM)

Turn 7

Overall Strategic Map at the start of the turn.


First things first - The Lost Division.
44th Mtn Div, last formation remaining on the map from the Stanislav Pocket, holds out against two Hungarian assaults.
Stalin orders supplies flow to the unit, and sufficient numbers arrive to bring them up to beachhead supply status.
The unit is nearing depletion. Even with supplies it simply can't last for over two months behind enemy lines.


German forces are clearly concentrating on Leningrad. The defenders are giving ground slowly, but the Wehrmacht manages to pin several rifle divisions to the Baltic.
STAVKA supplies several fresh rifle brigades which are immediately sent to the front lines to screen the panzer thrusts toward the Luga river.


Northwest Front takes responsibility for defenses from Novgorod to Velikie-Luki. It doesn't appear that the Germans will attempt to hook below Lake Ilmen, but the Russians have to keep the possibility in mind.


Saaremaa Island - Estonia
Germans attack brigade holding crossing. While they compel a retreat under fire they are unable to exploit the moment and make a crossing.
The divisions that escaped from Tallinn and fell under Stuka bombardment at sea were barely cohesive upon arrival:
8th Moscow PM RD - 13% exp rifle squads
2nd Moscow PM RD - 19% exp rifle squads
both restocked to >90% TOE due to port supply.
I had wanted to create a trap for the German infantry division on this island by moving a Rifle Division to the northernmost island while the other held the port and the brigade managed a fighting withdrawal. I was going to cut off the German infantry with the northern division and piss off OKH, but the gamey replacement cycle kills the joy of it. If they hadn't been intercepted and came on the island at their 80%+ TOE I would have liked to try this gambit, but it felt cheap, so I changed plans.

The KGB obtained Fuhrer Directive No.33 is validated by the events in the Smolensk region. German mechanized forces have split north and south, the exact composition of the diversion of forces is not yet clear, but Gomel is threatened, and so the operations in the marshes must be brought to a close. Approximately 8 German infantry division equivalents are currently trying to comb the swamps.


Army Group South has decided to focus its panzer corps on Kiev, but the progress is slow, and provides time to continue building the Dnepr Line farther south.


At Odessa the enemy units draw closer, but haven't yet isolated the ground resupply route.


Overall Strategic Map at the end of the turn.


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