How to model submarines? (Full Version)

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mussey -> How to model submarines? (3/14/2019 4:55:42 PM)

As I finalize the beta for The Next War 1979 - Expanded, I am beginning to look ahead to the possible use of attack submarines in the scenario. I have learned quite a bit about creating/editing, but the creation of subs may be over my head. NATO, and especially Soviets had a plethora of them. Soviet naval doctrine used them extensively (not too dissimilar from WWII Germans) to win the Battle of the Atlantic.

Has anyone been successful with this? I see some possibilities but not sure how plausible any of these visions are:
- create them as some type of regular naval unit.
- in some ways they are like guerilla units. Can I create a guerilla sea unit? {edit: no]
- Create them as Naval Air units with extensive range and sea hunting capability.
- Use the Event Editor to somehow create naval attrition in the opposing forces.

I understand that TOAW's focus is on land combat and not naval. I'm OK with this. But without some way of getting some facsimile of them in my scenario, the Soviets are losing quite a bit of naval power.




incbob -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/15/2019 6:22:15 PM)

Hello.

I am still new to the game and have no experience with the editor, so am probably speaking out of turn and perhaps these are things you have considered.

Other than for realism why do you want submarines?

One way I see of modeling submarines is to consider what effects they might have on the battlefield.
1) Limiting supplies to certain areas.
2) The loss of certain naval units to sinking or damage.
3) The slowing of naval units as they must avoid certain areas or go slower in order to detect and defend against submarines.
4) Possible random bombardments against military units reducing their effectiveness.

If you want a unit that the player could move around.
1) It would have to do all of the above.
2) It would have to be able to disappear and not be able to found.
3) It would, in my opinion, have to be a unit with a very high hitting power, but very little defense. Modern submarine warfare is not so much a warfare were units are damaged and return to port, but one where units are destroyed.

In my mind, again with my very limited experience, this sounds like a low defensive air unit, that is not required to base at an airfield, that stays at sea, and is not able to be on land and has a limited range from any coastal hex to land targets.

If that is not possible, I think the low defensive air unit with an very long extensive range might be the way to go. This would also allow the Nato navy a chance to engage and destroy the submarine (air unit) when it attacked. I would however, factor in some high attrition against the Soviet submarine forces to represent those submarines that are at sea and are unable to get away from Nato forces.




larryfulkerson -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/15/2019 9:05:38 PM)

Is there any way to make them invisible to the enemy side? Some kind of partisan unit kind of stealth?




Lobster -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/16/2019 3:40:43 AM)

You can't lay mines either.




mussey -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/17/2019 1:06:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob

Hello.

I am still new to the game and have no experience with the editor, so am probably speaking out of turn and perhaps these are things you have considered.

Other than for realism why do you want submarines?

One way I see of modeling submarines is to consider what effects they might have on the battlefield.
1) Limiting supplies to certain areas.
2) The loss of certain naval units to sinking or damage.
3) The slowing of naval units as they must avoid certain areas or go slower in order to detect and defend against submarines.
4) Possible random bombardments against military units reducing their effectiveness.

If you want a unit that the player could move around.
1) It would have to do all of the above.
2) It would have to be able to disappear and not be able to found.
3) It would, in my opinion, have to be a unit with a very high hitting power, but very little defense. Modern submarine warfare is not so much a warfare were units are damaged and return to port, but one where units are destroyed.

In my mind, again with my very limited experience, this sounds like a low defensive air unit, that is not required to base at an airfield, that stays at sea, and is not able to be on land and has a limited range from any coastal hex to land targets.

If that is not possible, I think the low defensive air unit with an very long extensive range might be the way to go. This would also allow the Nato navy a chance to engage and destroy the submarine (air unit) when it attacked. I would however, factor in some high attrition against the Soviet submarine forces to represent those submarines that are at sea and are unable to get away from Nato forces.



Thanks Incbob for the feedback. Here is a slightly lengthy (sorry) reasoning for the possibility of adding them to my scenario. The Soviets have a disproportionate number of subs to surface vessels. In 1979, the Northern and Baltic Fleets combined have about 156 attack submarines (116 torpedo subs/40 cruise missile subs). This dwarfs NATO numbers. Without them included, NATO surface ships of US, UK, Neth., Belgium, and France would have a clear advantage. Non-US NATO ships that would normally be tied to ASW roles in the English Channel areas, and unavailable for surface action would be able to leave these responsibilities and attack without consequences.

As my scenario stands now, the bulk of naval warfare is conducted off-map thru Events that is called 'The Battle of the Atlantic (BOA)'. The results of this Event may delay US reinforcements and reduce supplies to Europe. Submarines would not have to be added here since it is already modeled thru the Event Editor.
But it is my on-map concern in the Norwegian and North Seas that subs need to be addressed. If I presume that the majority of them are fighting the BOA, let's say 75%, then that leaves 25% or about 40 Soviet subs available for attack roles on-map. Of course NATO subs would need to be added roughly in the same proportion.

It's a mystery to me and I am miffed how to proceed with this. You added some excellent observations that I need to consider if I move forward.

Maybe I could break this down by function:
- Fleet action: subs directly supporting surface ships could be added as a combination of another class of surface unit, and/or generic Naval Air units?
- Anti-convoy: add more events thru the Event Editor to keep NATO ships tied to their patrol areas?

Anyway, thanks for your ideas!




mussey -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/17/2019 1:21:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Is there any way to make them invisible to the enemy side? Some kind of partisan unit kind of stealth?


Thanks Larry. My comprehension of TOAW's battle mechanics is so dismal, it's difficult to wrap my head around this. WWII era warfare is more to my liking, but modern era is more difficult with the advent of missile and electronic warfare.




mussey -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/17/2019 3:23:24 PM)

I found this at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Command_Channel

This may be over-kill and mostly fyi, but it affects how I model some part of naval action in the 1979 scenario. It shows how NATO Naval command was set-up during much of the Cold War. Each had its own command and task. For example:

The Nore Sub-Area Channel Command (NORECHAN) was a command based at HM Dockyard Chatham in Kent. NORECHAN's task was to prevent Soviet Navy ship and submarines passing through the Northern North Sea toward allied shipping routes in the English Channel.

This goes on in a similar fashion for the other naval Command areas as well.





[image]local://upfiles/23116/4E5A9518EA83427A9F2AFC49107202BE.jpg[/image]




mussey -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/17/2019 4:02:28 PM)

If I were to create a special 'Submarine Air Unit' to simulate attack submarines, what would they look like?

- type? (probably create one Air Unit per submarine class?)
- range? (probably based on a submarine's class range)
- weapons? (probably based on torpedoes and/or cruise ship-to-ship missiles)
- (do aircraft in TOAW have ranged Ship-to-ship missiles?? If not, can the equipment editor be used to alter this?)
- how many aircraft would represent 1 submarine? (I haven't a clue?)
- where to base them? (probably at current air bases, but maybe a special box in the north Norwegian Sea?)
- which nations would get them? (all that had subs. For example I read somewhere that Denmark(?) could put up a little fight around the Baltic straights with diesel/quieter subs.)

Ships do not have an ASW function (right?), but they do have an Anti-Air AA function which I do not want to alter for these new Submarine Air Units, so whatever is created above needs to take this into account.

As I mentioned previously, I accept TOAW's limitations on naval warfare, but maybe can accept a crude submarine model that is based on some form of plausible reality. [8|]

The Expanded scenario calls for NATO reinforcements to Norway and Denmark, as well as ship transport of land units to the ports of Netherlands/Belgium. They would need to fight through an extensive Soviet sub force to do this.




mussey -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/17/2019 4:41:28 PM)

Here are Soviet numbers. This is from 'National Intelligence Estimate 1979':



[image]local://upfiles/23116/E5BCAC108E234E4EBA62B046E59799FA.jpg[/image]




cathar1244 -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/17/2019 6:09:15 PM)

quote:

- (do aircraft in TOAW have ranged Ship-to-ship missiles?? If not, can the equipment editor be used to alter this?)
- how many aircraft would represent 1 submarine? (I haven't a clue?)
- where to base them? (probably at current air bases, but maybe a special box in the north Norwegian Sea?) --mussey


Aircraft may have an anti-shipping rating. This appears upon selection of certain parameters for the equipment, and, IIRC, setting the AP rating high enough generates anti-shipping ratings as well. Would have to confirm the last bit.

Suggest 1 "aircraft" per sub. The "aircraft" can be given a defense strength in the editor you think is reasonable.

"Special box" probably best basing solution.

Other: If there is an aircraft equipment icon you are not using (I think there is one that looks like a World War One fighter), the equipment icon could be altered to look like a submarine, although the game message will still announce "Air Strike".

Cheers




mussey -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/17/2019 7:30:16 PM)

Posit: create a new 'Submarine Air unit'.
- It needs to be strong enough to successfully fend of opposing air superiority.
- It needs to be equal to/or susceptible to a new 'ASW Air unit' (to also be created).

Posit: create a new 'ASW Air Unit'.
- It needs to be strong enough or equal to the submarines it is attacking.

Posit: there should be no needed change to existing surface naval units.

Something like this?

PS: ASW Air units would not be a fiction, whereas the Submarine Air Units...will be unique to TOAW...




mussey -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/19/2019 10:41:02 AM)

So moving forward, I think this is how I will model them.

- 75% of Soviet subs will be off-map through Events involved with 'Battle of Atlantic' (no change needed).
- 25% of SSGN's & SSG's ship-to-ship missile subs (x10 in number) will be modeled as pictured below. They will fight as regular surface ships.
- 25% of the torpedo subs (about x32 in number) will be loosely modeled as Naval Air Units, based in a exclusion zone box located in the Norwegian Sea (yet to be done).
- majority of NATO surface ships will be tied to the 'Battle of Atlantic' results that will delay them from entering the game map.
- I will create a NATO sub force in a similar fashion.
- Creation of another class of naval ships carrying either helicopters or air to combat both the new units above.

Here is a Charlie I class sub. I flagged recon, and agile, and greatly reduced its mass/size to try to make it harder to hit, but with my limited knowledge I'm not sure what kind of effect it will have in the game. I tried adding the guerrilla icon in a previous test but there was no benefit. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!:



[image]local://upfiles/23116/EB2C77C861684C29BD56E370830DD7FC.jpg[/image]




josant -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/19/2019 3:26:07 PM)

The optics (in this case optics2), is useless, this is only used in anti armor combat.




mussey -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/19/2019 9:11:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: josant

The optics (in this case optics2), is useless, this is only used in anti armor combat.


Thanks for the feedback Josant. I understand you have some good experience editing much of the stock equipment, so I highly value any suggestions you may have!




mussey -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/28/2019 4:25:24 AM)

I've been getting good feedback on getting subs into my scenario. Guided missile subs (SSG) have been created and will join their respective fleets as naval units with ship-to-ship missiles. I have tried to make them as 'stealthy' as possible. Torpedo attack subs (SS) have been represented by 'submarine/air units'. These will use Sea Interdiction as their mode of attack. A few of these (not many) are on map as naval units too.

This is their chrome look:




[image]local://upfiles/23116/4DD1E9236EF24CB19BB7BF943D75C2D0.jpg[/image]




mussey -> RE: How to model submarines? (3/28/2019 4:26:13 AM)

Here are the 'submarine /air' units:



[image]local://upfiles/23116/9A9F8472E8444A1988EB23A782392720.jpg[/image]




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