RE: Back to Town - Soviets (Full Version)

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MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/2/2019 6:19:34 PM)

Here is the situation when my command cycle ends.


StuccoFresco -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/2/2019 9:56:20 PM)

I totally agree with you, Mike, i've had the same experience in another couple AAR: units can see for 1km inside cities and tanks seems to rule urban warfare.

I'm gonna quote myself from another AAR:


ORIGINAL: StuccoFresco

Tanks ruled it, and it doesn't feel right. They had a LOS of 1000m albeit with low values, and that means they could engage targets at those distances. Other units could too, but tanks have weapons that can effectively engage and hit hard at those distances, so even with low values, the sheer amount of attacks and their power made them absolutely dominating in the combat inside Hameln.

Tanks (T-80s, Leopard 1s, Leopard 2s) racked up the absolute majority of kills, with almost certain impunity unless the enemy was a tank too. Infantry got wrecked and its impact on the urban battle was almost non-existant unless tanks weren't involved.

The ability to shoot at targets 1000m away in dense urban environement is strange: in a city (at least in Italy, but honestly in most of cities i visited abroad too) it's rare to be able to see something 1km away unless it's down a big boulevard-like road or a very big crossroad/plaza, or from elevated points.

Or maybe this particular battle had something special that influenced the combat. I can't be sure so i'm attaching several save files so if someone wants to re-create the urban combat and verify, he can.

CapnDarwin -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/2/2019 10:25:05 PM)

We have had a number of discussions about the range of fire within built-up areas within the group and we will more than likely reduce the sighting range in Southern Storm based on the cover and variability numbers for the hexes. Unlike a board game where everything is center to center, we do assume a unit is dispersed and in a position to sight and shoot at bad guys. This gives infantry an ability to "engage" units in the next hex. Infantry without top-notch anti-tank weapons will, in fact, be speed bumps against modern AFVs as they roll through an area. Even with AT weapons, there may not be enough of them to do much but kill a few of the many tanks in a company or multiple platoons.

It is an area we will devote time and effort to improve and also go back to our discussions from before. There are other considerations we will look at such as IFV/APC use, forward deployed Tank hunter teams, and the reduced vision/fire lines (that will affect both sides of the equation).

So we are interested in hearing your comments and feedback so we can make Southern Storm better at release. [8D]

StuccoFresco -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/3/2019 5:29:52 PM)

Good to hear LOS will be lowered in urban areas, though, that could seriously harm tanks' power there. At Grozny, for example, chechen militia with average AT weapons slaughtered russian tanks; urban warfare must be very dangerous for armored units, as of now it seems they aren't really at a disvantage.

MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/3/2019 10:38:42 PM)


Thanks for the update. I took a look at some street views from Germany and in most of them seeing more than 500m was very difficult even along the main street. In general, I would think that units in urban areas should have more cover - which means harder to see and harder to hit. Thinking back to my recent battle as the Brits, my units in the town got hit more often than I expected from a distance. I also agree with Stucco, urban areas are great for AT teams.

Time to get back to gaming...

Have a good evening,


MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/4/2019 12:17:22 AM)

A quick look at the options for using the TB


MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/4/2019 10:18:29 AM)

With almost 3 hours done and 5 to go, the Germans have entered the town in force.

My command cycle just went up to 35 minutes... not good.


StuccoFresco -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/4/2019 10:43:12 AM)

Have you considered the possibility of "hugging" the hill to maximize cover and then charge out of the westernmost outskirts of Boffzen (attached pic)? That could put you at striking distance from the rear of the armored german forces east of Westerbruck, but admittedly wouldn't give you the possibility to strike at the enemy backfield, where you could hunt for enemy SPAs.

Killing the SPAs would mean big trouble for the Germans and relieve a lot of pressure from your units in the city.


MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/6/2019 9:51:26 AM)


That is going to end up being my plan - sort of. The speed and ferocity of the German attack is killing my MRCs. I need to get my tanks involved...


StuccoFresco -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/6/2019 10:45:06 AM)

Yeah, the infantry looks doomed. Good luck for the flank attack: they are gonna need it if the enemy left some tank to guard the open terrain between Boffzen and Westerbruck...

Are those Recce elements on the far west? Have you considered sending them forward to hunt for germany's SPAs?

MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/8/2019 10:11:50 AM)

The advancing TB starts to come to the rescue


MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/8/2019 10:12:28 AM)

The end of the command cycle. My next one is 50 minutes long....


StuccoFresco -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/8/2019 11:00:36 AM)

Hope the tanks can turn the tide: it looks bad in the city.

MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/9/2019 12:40:23 PM)

I hope they can too. It is going to be a while though. The TB will not start moving for another hour! Damn.

MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/9/2019 1:22:50 PM)

I'm going down fast...


MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/9/2019 6:58:08 PM)

It is all done...


MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/9/2019 6:58:41 PM)

The Germans did not even have to use all their firepower...


MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/9/2019 6:59:23 PM)

I will review and post my concluding remarks in a bit. I enjoyed the battle, but I like winning more than losing.

MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/10/2019 1:24:38 PM)


What did I do right?

Use of the Tank Battalion. I used the initial TC as recce to make sure that the TB did not run into an ambush.

My initial plan was alright. I think the idea of defending inside the city was correct, but I could have done a better job of deploying the initial MRB.

Reaction to the German attack. Overall, I think that my response to the attack was good. I tried everything I could think of to rebuild the defence of the VP locations. The Germans just had too much.

What could I improve on

Initial plan. Couple of things here. I should have grouped the 3 MRC more closely. Also, I blew the wrong bridge for the way I deployed. The Germans were able to take on one MRC at at time because of my deployment.

I need to monitor ammunition levels better. Too often, I had units resupplying at the wrong time. In some cases, I had too many units resupplying at the same time and right beside each other.

Reserves. I had two TCs in WESTERBRUCK and I should have given at least one of them move orders much earlier. The move orders would have been for them to attack/reinforce the lead MRC. Instead, the TC arrived too late.

Final thoughts

This was fun and frustrating at the same time.

It is very challenging working with a command cycle of 30+ minutes. It was hard to watch my units being pounded for so long.

The ability to see and engage in the town was very surprising. I think that this needs to be investigated a bit more. Im not saying it is wrong, but I think that the defender should have more advantage defending in a town/city than they currently do.

The German artillery was devastatingly powerful. They really did a number on me. As a gunner I love that. I found the Soviet artillery to be less effective than I would have suspected my 3 batteries had 10 kills. The command cycle did not help, but even when they hit the mark, they did not cause many casualties.


StuccoFresco -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/10/2019 1:54:20 PM)

There were just way too much Germans to mount a defence anyway, i suspect.

MikeJ19 -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/10/2019 5:32:55 PM)

My feeling too. They did not even use them all... Thanks!

StuccoFresco -> RE: Back to Town - Soviets (3/10/2019 10:08:33 PM)

Thanks to you for your AARs, i'm an avid reader of them [8D]

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