Coastal guns easily eliminated (Full Version)

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Cabido -> Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/9/2019 10:13:09 PM)

I have already played some scenarios with naval forces, but for the first time I have noticed, while playing Malta 42, some strange results in fixed artillery vs naval task forces. I know almost nothing about naval warfare, so maybe the results are plausible, but they seem strange to me.

In the first turn, fixed coast gun icon counters delivers interdiction fire. They are always (I mean always) eliminated by counter fire. There is no exception, if they interdict, they will be eliminated. Usually they are constituted of 4 rifle squads and 2 high caliber guns, as you can see in the picture. Fixed guns icon counters along the coast have a similar configuration, but without the high caliber gun. They usually have 4 squads, some mortars and some machine guns. They don't interdict, but when being bombarded by the same naval task force, they suffer no or very little damage (10 % in average). I would just like to know the rationale behind it. For those who understand naval warfare, should coastal guns be so easily eliminated? Ok, I can understand that they will usually be more exposed than the fixed guns, that won't be necessarily on the coast, but, anyway the difference is huge and allow coastal guns only a single shot.

[image]local://upfiles/58482/9E4EC077454D4518AD8B568395E9C006.jpg[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/9/2019 11:00:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cabido
I have already played some scenarios with naval forces, but for the first time I have noticed, while playing Malta 42, some strange results in fixed artillery vs naval task forces. I know almost nothing about naval warfare, so maybe the results are plausible, but they seem strange to me.

In the first turn, fixed coast gun icon counters delivers interdiction fire. They are always (I mean always) eliminated by counter fire. There is no exception, if they interdict, they will be eliminated. Usually they are constituted of 4 rifle squads and 2 high caliber guns, as you can see in the picture. Fixed guns icon counters along the coast have a similar configuration, but without the high caliber gun. They usually have 4 squads, some mortars and some machine guns. They don't interdict, but when being bombarded by the same naval task force, they suffer no or very little damage (10 % in average). I would just like to know the rationale behind it. For those who understand naval warfare, should coastal guns be so easily eliminated? Ok, I can understand that they will usually be more exposed than the fixed guns, that won't be necessarily on the coast, but, anyway the difference is huge and allow coastal guns only a single shot.

I hear you. It's the same thing I experience with other scenarios too. And like you I'm wondering what's going on under the hood that causes this effect. And is it really supposed to happen that way, and I mean always, no matter what is the defender. I'd like to take some time off from playing to do some testing. Who am I trying to kid. I can't do that. But maybe we can find a volunteer to do some tests by comparing the toaw_log that the game engine can produce to what actually happens in the game. Anybody?




Lobster -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/9/2019 11:24:15 PM)

I don't know why the infantry unit has a coastal artillery icon instead of occupying a fortified hex. The shore bombardment on D-Day didn't kill off the German defenders so it's not surprising to see the light casualties in your game vs infantry only units. On the other hand the artillery is fixed and once spotted can be dealt with. Even guns in casements can be silenced. But they can also be reactivated. Check out the duel the Allied naval forces had with the German batteries at Cherbourg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Cherbourg

So yeah, they could be silenced with proper spotters, typically air. But guns in casements are hell to deal with by naval forces if there are no spotters. I have no idea what the Malta defenders had.

Uhm...after doing some reading any large guns should be 9.2" British guns. They had those, 12 pound, 6 pound, 4.7" and 4". No 155mm. https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=199492




larryfulkerson -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 2:42:08 AM)

So you're saying that the CD guns evaporating is okie dokie?




gliz2 -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 7:10:30 AM)

Anything behind a couple of meters of concrete would be hard to destroy just by returning fire.
I have played Normandy'44 scenario and don't recall cases like this.
This looks strange, more like a bug.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 10:28:55 AM)

Malta 42 ? Wow, an old scenario, one of those by James Burns, a very respectable scenario designer from earlier versions. So no wonder it may not perform respectably inside TOAW IV since it was not designed with TOAW IV.
@ Cabido - Try adjusting the Naval Attrition Divider. It may be set at 100, and the default is 10, so maybe try resetting to 50 and work from there until the result is acceptable ?




cathar1244 -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 11:47:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Malta 42 ? Wow, an old scenario, one of those by James Burns, a very respectable scenario designer from earlier versions. So no wonder it may not perform respectably inside TOAW IV since it was not designed with TOAW IV.
@ Cabido - Try adjusting the Naval Attrition Divider. It may be set at 100, and the default is 10, so maybe try resetting to 50 and work from there until the result is acceptable ?


NAD is set at 100, btw.

Cheers




Lobster -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 11:55:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

So you're saying that the CD guns evaporating is okie dokie?


If they are in exposed positions it wouldn't take much to kill the crews. I don't think the 9.2" guns were in casements from what I've found. Again, the problem would be with spotting. But if those are supposed to be the 9.2" guns then making them 155mm they are not big enough anyway.




Cabido -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 12:05:26 PM)

Thanks all of you for the explanations.

Larry, I'm as lost as you are. I know nothing about naval combat (you probably know more than me). I just want to know if we really have to expect coastal guns to be an expendable single shot gun. Why have them build at all then?

sPzAbt653, you were right; it was set to 100. Setting it to 10, as far as I understand, would make things worse, since the smaller the divider the greater the number of shots, as I could infer from the formulas. Anyway, I have tried it with no effect at all. Every interdicting gun is eliminated after the first interdiction shot.

I think the engine uses the naval combat formulas for ships firing at coastal gun and normal bombardment when firing against fixed guns, or we wouldn't have this difference of effectiveness. As I said, I can understand, as lobster said, that fixed guns may be more difficult to spot, but that isn't always the case (some structures on the maginot line don't seem to me as much different from some coastal fortifications). They won't be as exposed to naval fire, though, for the simple fact of not being on the coast. But it seems to me that eliminating a coastal gun with the first hail of naval gun shots would be analogous to eliminating each fixed gun on exposed structures on the first hail of counter artillery fire.




Lobster -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 12:39:44 PM)

This is likely something Bob aka Curtis Lemay would know about since he did all the naval 'stuff' as far as I know.




Curtis Lemay -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 1:43:02 PM)

Naval Attrition Divider is only going to affect the Coastal Guns' impact on the naval vessels - not the naval vessels' impact on the coastal guns. Bombardment of ground targets has not been changed by the new naval rules.

I doubt this scenario worked any differently under III. The coastal defenses appear, in this scenario, to be tiny and unfortified, with little anti-naval power.




Cabido -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 4:47:52 PM)

I changed the scenario and placed all coastal guns in fortified hexes as listed below:

4/RMA TOTAL ANTI-SHIPPING - 16 (2 4.5 INCH GUNS)
6/RMA TOTAL ANTI-SHIPPING - 20 (2 6 INCH GUNS)
A/5/4 TOTAL ANTI-SHIPPING - 22 (2 155MM GUNS)
2/1RMA TOTAL ANTI-SHIPPING - 20 (2 6 INCH GUNS)
4/1RMA TOTAL ANTI-SHIPPING - 20 (2 6 INCH GUNS)
9/RMA TOTAL ANTI-SHIPPING - 22 (2 155MM GUNS)
B/5/5 TOTAL ANTI-SHIPPING - 22 (2 155MM GUNS)
5/RMA TOTAL ANTI-SHIPPING - 12 (2 8 INCH GUNS)
B/4/4 TOTAL ANTI-SHIPPING - 22 (2 155MM GUNS)
3/RMA TOTAL ANTI-SHIPPING - 16 (2 4.5 INCH GUNS)
8/RMA TOTAL ANTI-SHIPPING - 22 (2 155MM GUNS)

All of them have 4 rifle squad. I don't know if the intention was to increase Defense Strength.

I've used a single heavy cruiser to approach the port (2.5km - 5km). In less than one hour (4 or 5 one hex moves interdicted) the heavy cruiser eliminates all of them, all the time. I don't know how ship bombarding coastal guns is resolved (I couldn't find the formula amongst those especially created for naval combat), but it must be different from fixed guns, since there are a lot of fixed guns on position in the game which suffer naval bombardment with very little damage. Most are composed of 4 rifle squads, 4 mortars and 2 medium MG.

It seems consistent when firing, based on anti-naval value and shell weight for number of fire, range for hit and shell weight for damage. The heavy cruiser suffered 10% damage in average.

This was what I thought. So I tried to bombard the coastal guns with the same heavy cruiser with ignore losses settings. The coastal guns were able to defend 10 rounds without one single gun being eliminated and inflicting the same level of damage to the cruiser. There must be something wrong with the counter fire after interdiction. One single round of a heavy cruiser counter fire has eliminated 3 or 4 coastal guns at once on multiple tests. The same heavy cruiser bombarding the guns, can't eliminate them after 10 rounds.




Lobster -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 5:34:44 PM)

You need to upgrade the 155mm to something over 200mm. A 9.2" is something like 233mm and is a naval gun, not a howitzer or army artillery piece.




cathar1244 -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 5:49:41 PM)

quote:

There must be something wrong with the counter fire after interdiction. One single round of a heavy cruiser counter fire has eliminated 3 or 4 coastal guns at once on multiple tests. The same heavy cruiser bombarding the guns, can't eliminate them after 10 rounds.


That sounds curiously similar to older complaints about bombardment via air interdiction being more effective than direct air strikes.

Following on Lobster's comment about the guns, one thing to consider might be to used the "fixed guns" in the equipment database vice regular field pieces. Fixed guns have a higher defense strength, although I don't know if it would help in this instance.

Cheers




Cabido -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 6:00:06 PM)

Lobster, the problem now is that I'm not anymore discussing historical plausibility of these results. As I've said, I can't evaluate them, since I know almost nothing about naval warfare. Others will have to do it. The problem now is that I have detected a very net and intense inconsistency on the engine. This has to be a bug, unless I'm not taking into account some very important factor that would justify the difference seen in results.

It's as simple as that: when firing as counter fire (after interdiction), a heavy cruiser can eliminate all three coastal batteries from an hex in one round. When bombarding the same hex on a direct bombardment (ordered), it could not eliminate one single gun after ten rounds of bombardment. Ok, it may, here and there, in this last case; I didn't carry enough tests, but the difference in effect is so huge that there must be something wrong with counter fire after interdiction.

The results of direct bombardment are consistent with the results we get when bombarding other ground units.
The results of counter fire (after interdiction) is devastating.

EDIT: Cathar1244, I've seen your comment after posting. I don't think it's worth trying to find the best configuration now, without this problem being dealt with. If it was only a subtle difference, ok, but its just mad. The same piece of equipment can devastate all guns on the coast in one round when counter firing, but can see they resist for ten rounds using direct bombardment.

Maybe, if it's a bug, it's affecting other aspects of the game too, as you've said.




Lobster -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 6:29:22 PM)

You would think that the land bombardment of the coastal artillery would be more effective. So yes, something is amiss in the game engine calculations it would seem. Maybe there needs to be separate algorithms for naval vs land and naval vs naval if they are both currently using the same one. [&:]




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 7:31:41 PM)

quote:

when firing as counter fire (after interdiction), a heavy cruiser can eliminate all three coastal batteries from an hex in one round.

I can't replicate this, the cruisers aren't getting any shore fire when they move, and attacking the coast units with ships or embarked troops doesn't get that result. What am I doing different?

Edit: I'm using 4.1.0.4.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/E549099E35414F46A2BB6B9E04730398.jpg[/image]




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 7:35:37 PM)

@Jack, as an addition to what you are saying, and of some historic interest, many of the German coast batteries were ineffective on D-Day and during the fight for Normandy because the crews would lob a shell or two for the sake of honor, then they would hide or run away for fear of drawing the attention of the Allies' ships and planes.




Cabido -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 7:53:35 PM)

sPzAbt653, these seem to be fixed guns, it only happens with coastal guns (the diamond shaped icon). Coastal guns interdict automatically independently of deployment, so we can't even prevent them. Try the Malta 42 scenario and you'll see it happen in the first turn. Just move any italian vessel. Your vessel will be interdicted and counter fire. The gun will be eliminated. Try then doing a direct bombardment. Select the same vessel and bombard an hex with coastal guns with ignore losses, if some is spotted, and you'll see that the gun will, most probably, survive 3 rounds of combat. Most guns will probably survive 10 rounds of combats. But if you move the vessel around, the guns will interdict it and be all eliminated with counter fire.

EDIT: I noticed you are using the malta scenario. Try getting near Valletta, the opposite direction. Even though you should already be fired upon where you are.

I have altered the malta scenario placing all coastal guns inside the fortifications near valletta. Good for tests.




John T_MatrixForum -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 8:37:52 PM)

It was reported a year ago by Dr Foo.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4412901

And from my own experience with the Weserubung scenarios this is a 100% repeatable bug.

If a fixed unit are being overrun it might make sense to eliminate it but the complete and assured destruction of coastal artillery ICONS by naval bombardment does not make sense.

Please just take this for a fact and add it to the bug list that should be fixed.

(clarified that this is about naval bombardment)




Cabido -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/10/2019 9:25:50 PM)

Done




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/11/2019 12:25:46 AM)

quote:

I doubt this scenario worked any differently under III.

But there was no Sea Interdiction in III, so by default it is different. Open Malta 42 with IV and do what you see in Post #17 [move a cruiser up and down the coast] and the Coast Artillery units will eventually be eliminated by the Counter Fire from the cruiser. Not the Fixed Units, they appear to stay silent or are immune. Do the same in III and nothing happens.

We discussed it in Beta years ago. Our 'project leader's' answer is in post #11 above, and in the thread that John T. posted a link for, so you might as well consider it working as desired. I am more surprised that no one since IV's release has mentioned the Sea Interdiction by Air Units. Maybe it has been discussed, I certainly don't read every thread. This new feature seems more out of whack than Coast Battery behaviour. To me, that is.




Cabido -> RE: Coastal guns easily eliminated (2/11/2019 4:38:06 PM)

I have posted what's below on the old version of the same question. But there, they didn't test the same vessel counter firing and conducting normal bombardment against coastal units.

But the retreat explanation makes no sense. You can have a plausible explanation for normal fixed units being treated differently from coastal units, due to the greater exposition of the last, as stated by Lobster. Or based on retreat, as in the post, even if I can't judge it's plausibility. But what would explain the fact that the same coastal unit being fired upon by the same vessel is always eliminated with counter fire (after interdiction) and be able to survive ten rounds with normal bombardment? What would explain the EXTREMELY MORE EFFECTIVE power of counter fire vs simple bombardment from the same vessel with the same guns?

I'm not comparing normal fixed guns with coastal guns anymore. It's just that:

A fires at B with counter fire for one round. B is always eliminated.
A fires at B with normal bombardment order. B can survive ten rounds of bombardment.




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