ASW Tactics & Logistics (Full Version)

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jdsrae -> ASW Tactics & Logistics (1/26/2019 3:30:27 AM)

I've just read a few old posts with some info on this topic, but am keen for some feedback on the following to see if anyone has better ideas.
My plan is to form IJN ASW divisions with 1xAG, 4xSC, 1xAV and 1xFP each.

Tactics
For the SC group, I ran a few test and letting them loiter in a base hex doesn't use any fuel, so that suggests they are anchored in port and not actually patrolling. So what works best:
1. set them on a patrol using a single waypoint in a non-base hex to keep them at sea but mostly in a single hex, not burning too much fuel, or
2. set them on a patrol using 2-3 waypoint hexes, using a bit more fuel but moving about the area a bit more, probably all within 3-4 hexes of the base location.
In both instances set react to 6 so if a sub is detected nearby (by the FP group) they have a chance to react?

For the FP group, I will train the pilots up in both Naval Search and ASW. Does low naval or any other skill matter or is ASW the only one used for attacking subs?
The ASW mission seems to be similar to NS in that planes fly even when a sub hasn't yet been detected (so different to Naval Attack), but I've seen other posts that suggest having a mix of NS and ASW missions overlapping is best.
The reason seems to be that ASW missions fly half range, so NS will help detect subs on the surface at longer ranges. The aim being to get some Detection Level on the sub using the NS mission and then try to keep it up to give a chance of the ASW mission or Subchaser TF to react.
I assume night ASW or NS missions are pointless without the plane having radar?
So what works best:
1. have 1 x FP group 50% NS and 50% ASW (or less, with some % rest to manage fatigue/morale/airframes), or
2. run the FP group on NS only until subs start being detected, then change some % to ASW as above?

Logistics
I also ran a few tests in game to see how much fuel and supply each ASW Div will need to keep them hunting, and the answer seems to be "not much".
For example, 3 x SC Ch-1 have 90 fuel/SC when full. They use about 2 fuel when loitering and about 3 per hex of movement, so they can stay on patrol for about 1 month if they don't react to an enemy sub.
3 x ships in the Div means each ASW base needs < 300 fuel/month to keep them moving. That means CS convoys resupplying these locations is a bad idea as they would provide too much fuel, so manual refuelling convoys using small tankers is required.
Supply will be needed to rearm depth charges, but that is likely a very low/month requirement too.
I then tested 1xFP group with 1 x AV at Haha-jima. Even though the FP were flying morning and night they didn't use any supply. I assume that means they only use supply if they drop bombs trying to attack an enemy sub?
That also suggest that re-supply needs are very low/month, so use manual task forces for both local refuel and resupply of the ASW Div locations.

Any comments appreciated, especially if I've got something wrong above, or you have a view on the best tactics for ASW task forces or FP groups.

Cheers
Jim




BBfanboy -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (1/26/2019 6:04:25 AM)

If you set your SCs in a patrol at the base, it is indeed using a small amount of fuel each turn but it usually gets replenished. Set the TF to "do not refuel" and the fuel of the TF should drop slightly each turn.

Until the SCs get some experience they are more likely to be sunk by a sub than to attack one (subs usually have the best skippers with the most aggression).
I set the one-hex patrol until their experience rises above 20, then switch to a longer patrol that puts them at sea overnight. That starts to add some night experience (port patrols do not seem to add much night exp. at all).

ASW patrols only use the ASW skill to find and attack subs. Aircraft on ASW patrol only search half the range you set because it is an intensive search, but the area within four hexes of an active air base is considered searched by the coming and going of various aircraft.

Detection level is the key to beating subs. Nav Search is better at covering area and finding them but not so good at attacking them. The best combo is three teams - a team to Nav Search (usually patrol aircraft), an air team to perform ASW (bombers like the Ventura and Float Planes are good for this) and a ship ASW TF, set on patrol with react 6 to follow up on any air sightings.

The game seems to treat night search and ASW much the same as day missions. I search at 1000 feet at night (with limited range) and find ships just fine. Never really tried ASW though. I assume that a sub running on the surface at night would make a phosphorescent wake that search aircraft would see.

Re: depth charges, one of your problems will be getting replenishment in areas where all the ports are small. In these places AGs and ADs are your friend. AKEs and AEs can also replenish DCs.




mind_messing -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (1/26/2019 11:40:24 AM)

Minor technical point with subchasers. Check the type of depth charges they use. The IJN Type 95 depth charge is of limited effectiveness in deep water. Those sub chasers that never upgrade to the better depth charges should be kept in shallow water or coastal regions.




Lowpe -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (1/26/2019 3:02:08 PM)

What planes can fly ASW at night BBfanboy? I am not aware of any.




witpqs -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (1/26/2019 3:13:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

What planes can fly ASW at night BBfanboy? I am not aware of any.

In reality all the radar equipped ones, but how does AE handle it? There is night air search, but does that include the ability to make ASW attacks? Don't know.




Lowpe -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (1/26/2019 3:17:56 PM)

jdsrae,

Your ASW tactics change as the game tech changes.

But you are on the right track. AG to resupply. Be careful with using the AV out in task forces, keep them in port disbanded, with the float planes off and on the island or base.

Usually three ships hunter killer groups make the most meta gaming as reportedly the fourth doesn't help as much.

Generally speaking you need far more planes that one group of float planes. I usually use the float planes strictly in the night search role, and use Kates and Lillies as my primary daytime ASW search planes. The B5N2 will eventually get radar and MAD and I use it the whole game. The Lilly will transition to something else...the Helen Ia will get MAD, but in I like the Peggy combined with E's by that time.

I have built the Lorna, and in truth she works very well, but has very limited range and takes up a super valuable Navy bombing squadron.

I have used my run silent, run deep tactic to great success...in several flavors, here is one I particularly like:

One small tanker, escorted by SC or E (quite a few say at least 6) and send them into spotted sub concentrations. I also send an Iboat in on patrol, and cover the area with ASW daytime search and nightime naval search. It is a killer tactic.

Also, nothing beats the KB on 60%ASW, 20% naval search for a day or two.

Don't use CVE at sea to hunt subs, they will just get torpedoed, and they have no inherent extra capability. You can dock them and fly ASW missions off them at size 3 or larger ports.

Don't forget mines, a sub hitting a mine raises their dl.

Change your Captains...high naval high aggression.

And as M-M said, check your depth charge type. Although it can make sense to send those 11knot PB out into deep water to keep enemy subs occupied.




GetAssista -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (1/26/2019 4:12:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Also, nothing beats the KB on 60%ASW, 20% naval search for a day or two.

Only if you are OK with revealing its location though.




Lowpe -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (1/26/2019 4:25:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

What planes can fly ASW at night BBfanboy? I am not aware of any.

In reality all the radar equipped ones, but how does AE handle it? There is night air search, but does that include the ability to make ASW attacks? Don't know.


I have heard rumors that an Allied plane type or two can fly ASW at night, but it was just a rumor.




witpqs -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (1/26/2019 4:40:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

What planes can fly ASW at night BBfanboy? I am not aware of any.

In reality all the radar equipped ones, but how does AE handle it? There is night air search, but does that include the ability to make ASW attacks? Don't know.


I have heard rumors that an Allied plane type or two can fly ASW at night, but it was just a rumor.


I would have to look. I have run plenty of Naval Search at night. I use the ASW mission sparingly because of the range reduction, instead using Naval Search even for most 'ASW' purposes. Don't recall even looking to notice if any groups have the option of night ASW.




jdsrae -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (1/26/2019 9:46:33 PM)

Good to know Iím on the right track, but some great extra details and ideas above.

Iím going to figure out where to post the ASW Divs to next, Iíve got 16 Subchaser Divs to find a home port for straight away, growing to 52 as more Subchasers arrive. I donít have many spare PB after planning out my convoys so theyíll go to my main convoy end-points and Iíll send reinforcements to mid then quarter-ish points along the main routes. Iíll keep the small AG that start, plus convert xAKL Daigen to AG just in time to support them (only a 15 day conversion).

I have 42 x FP groups in Dec 41. 21 land based, 14 CA-2 air groups will be posted ashore, 7 x AV air groups will also be posted ashore. CS Chitose and Chiyoda will go on a training cruise to resize all that can to 24. 18 more FP groups arrive as reinforcements for a total of 60. This will need a large Jake factory expansion program to equip them all - I still need to crunch the numbers on that... but the ASW Force can also supplement the IJN pilot training program by churning out pilots with the base NS and ASW skills.

This bit most of you might find crazy, but to keep JNAF base forces to support land based air groups, Iím planning to convert all 34 Kyushu (21 aircraft support each) to AV plus 12 Husimi (16 aircraft support each) plus 9 starting AV gives 55 total. The conversions are 210 and 180 days each so wonít be available until mid 42, should be enough time to expand Jake factories and ramp up production by then. Equipping and training air groups will probably take most of 1942, so when USN torpedoes start working the subs will need to get through more than 1000 FP on patrol across the map first.

Iíll place the JNAF base forces with Nells/Betties etc and the few Mavis / Emily groups to interlock with the FP groups to try and cover as much of the main convoy routes as possible.

I checked a Jake, Val, Mabel and Nell group on 7 Dec 41 and they canít fly ASW at night. Looks like NS missions at night are the go.

I also checked the Subchaser task force again. I hadnít set it to ďdo not refuelĒ so I did that, and had it sit in a base hex undocked, but it still didnít use any fuel... Take 2, you need to set TF routing to the base hex and tell it to loiter for 9 days, let it refuel in game but setting it not to shows it used 1 point of fuel. It will use 2 on a 24 hour turn. That will be the setting I use, 9 day local patrols until they master the basics of ship driving.




Dante Fierro -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/1/2019 3:30:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Aircraft on ASW patrol only search half the range you set because it is an intensive search, but the area within four hexes of an active air base is considered searched by the coming and going of various aircraft.



Quick question. If no missions are flown from an active air base, does this four hex rule still apply? i.e. The 4 hexes is automatic no matter if missions are flown or not??




BBfanboy -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/1/2019 5:06:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dante Fierro


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Aircraft on ASW patrol only search half the range you set because it is an intensive search, but the area within four hexes of an active air base is considered searched by the coming and going of various aircraft.



Quick question. If no missions are flown from an active air base, does this four hex rule still apply? i.e. The 4 hexes is automatic no matter if missions are flown or not??


I don't have access to the game code, so I cannot answer your question definitively.... but .... I cannot see how the designers would include an air search effect around an airbase that is not operating aircraft. Clearly, there should be no search if no aircraft are in the air.




Dante Fierro -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/1/2019 5:48:14 AM)

OK, so then if aircraft are active? I'm still a noob when it comes to this game, so my apologies if the question appears a bit silly. But when you say 4 hexes are searched if various aircraft are coming or going ... does this imply that if aircraft *even if they are not specifically assigned a search mission* - an automatic 4 hex range search still happens ??

I guess the follow up question - would it only include the path aircraft take on their mission?

This all seems odd to me. Perhaps you mean a 4 hex range is default whenever a search mission is assigned??




BBfanboy -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/1/2019 5:03:17 PM)

I only know what I stated because that is the way Alfred (I think it was he) who knows the code described it. I doubt the programmers would get deep enough into the abstraction to plot aircraft paths, and the assumption seems to be that any type of aircraft on any mission can spot a sub (remember that subs were mostly surfaced in that era, to save the batteries for attacks and so the sub could search a wider area).

Also keep in mind that no one is saying the search is 100% effective.




Dante Fierro -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/1/2019 5:17:06 PM)

Alright. Got it. Thx BB




HansBolter -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/1/2019 7:34:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dante Fierro

OK, so then if aircraft are active? I'm still a noob when it comes to this game, so my apologies if the question appears a bit silly. But when you say 4 hexes are searched if various aircraft are coming or going ... does this imply that if aircraft *even if they are not specifically assigned a search mission* - an automatic 4 hex range search still happens ??

I guess the follow up question - would it only include the path aircraft take on their mission?

This all seems odd to me. Perhaps you mean a 4 hex range is default whenever a search mission is assigned??




The clarification that came down from a developer some time ago about air search being 360 degree radius for 4 hexes was addressing the old debate between those who swear by using restricted air search arc and those (myself included) who see no benefit in it and allow the tactical AI to search 360 degrees out to the full range limit.

When restricting air search to distinct and limited arcs the assigned squadron will still be searching a full 360 degrees for the first four hexes.

My understanding of the explanation has always been that a squadron has to be assigned to search for this effect to happen.




Lowpe -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/1/2019 8:17:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dante Fierro

OK, so then if aircraft are active? I'm still a noob when it comes to this game, so my apologies if the question appears a bit silly. But when you say 4 hexes are searched if various aircraft are coming or going ... does this imply that if aircraft *even if they are not specifically assigned a search mission* - an automatic 4 hex range search still happens ??

I guess the follow up question - would it only include the path aircraft take on their mission?

This all seems odd to me. Perhaps you mean a 4 hex range is default whenever a search mission is assigned??




The clarification that came down from a developer some time ago about air search being 360 degree radius for 4 hexes was addressing the old debate between those who swear by using restricted air search arc and those (myself included) who see no benefit in it and allow the tactical AI to search 360 degrees out to the full range limit.

When restricting air search to distinct and limited arcs the assigned squadron will still be searching a full 360 degrees for the first four hexes.

My understanding of the explanation has always been that a squadron has to be assigned to search for this effect to happen.


Hans, I thought it was three hexes. Pretty sure it is...otherwise I would have lost a lot of Naval Search planes recently.





rustysi -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/2/2019 6:31:56 PM)

quote:

I thought it was three hexes.


Its four.




BBfanboy -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/3/2019 3:23:11 AM)

Lowpe, are you sure that it has to have search aircraft up? I recall when this info came up thinking it odd that "any type of mission" was all it took for the four-hex search effect - i.e. I thought it would be more logical to have search aircraft only create the effect. I can't find the original discussion.




Dante Fierro -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/3/2019 3:13:08 PM)

From my notes on Air Recon I came across this. It was written somewhere in the forums but don't ask me where:


"Note that even if search arcs are set, aircraft will still do a full 360į search over a 4 hex range."


So this would apply to aircraft actually on a search mission. But non-search mission aircraft ... seems like it might be different.




Lowpe -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/3/2019 5:54:08 PM)

How do you measure four hexes?



[image]local://upfiles/44178/1E38319B13034B38A84A116D5BF62252.jpg[/image]




Mike Solli -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/3/2019 6:00:15 PM)

I'd say the longer one because you can search 0 hexes out. When you search 1 hex, you can see the arc goes out to the adjacent hexes.




Lowpe -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/3/2019 6:09:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Lowpe, are you sure that it has to have search aircraft up? I recall when this info came up thinking it odd that "any type of mission" was all it took for the four-hex search effect - i.e. I thought it would be more logical to have search aircraft only create the effect. I can't find the original discussion.



No, I am not certain. I know Alfred has said ASW missions get the free circle search, but I think from anecdotal evidence I don't think they do or that it is 2 hexes since ASW search missions are halved (that has never been mentioned by developers according to Alfred). I know I have flown ASW missions near heavy enemy CAP presence and they did not get shredded, and did if their ASW range included the enemy base. But that is anecdotal, so take it with a heavy grain of salt.

I do remember two salient points about naval search in this "free circle." 1. There is a penalty to aircraft spotting naval vessels in an undefined search arc. 2. The search arcs show what is planned...but not what actually happens during the turn. Weather, morale, leadership, ad infinitum... all play roles in whether each individual search arc gets searched. A squadron could actually search the first arc, miss the 2nd arc, and search the 3rd arc of a three arc search pattern. How does that relate to the free circle...well only 2/3rds of the planes actually flew and performed the search.

I will load up a game, and snap some screenies to show some other odd things about naval search arcs if you are interested.




tarkalak -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/6/2019 2:24:18 PM)

If I recall correctly the manual said that no matter the direction of search (either set or random) each plane on Naval Search will always search all hexes withing range threearound its base.

That might have been changed to 4 later on though.




rustysi -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/6/2019 10:05:46 PM)

quote:

If I recall correctly the manual said that no matter the direction of search (either set or random) each plane on Naval Search will always search all hexes withing range threearound its base.


Not saying its not there, but I just don't recall seeing it. Please state where such is said.




Lowpe -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (2/6/2019 10:33:30 PM)

The manual states that 5 hexes is an increased detection zone, because of the many planes flying thru that area to and from the runway.




montesaurus -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (4/16/2019 8:53:46 PM)

Looking over the ASW forum, and just wondering, is 1000 feet considered the best altitude for your ASW planes to operate at to be most effective?




Chickenboy -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (4/16/2019 9:47:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: montesaurus

Looking over the ASW forum, and just wondering, is 1000 feet considered the best altitude for your ASW planes to operate at to be most effective?


I believe that 1000 feet will yield the greatest number of attacks on submarines spotted. It *also* yields higher fatigue and OPS-related damage, so many opt for 2,000 feet or higher to reduce the fatigue.




montesaurus -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (4/16/2019 9:57:26 PM)

Thanks for the information!




montesaurus -> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics (4/16/2019 10:01:05 PM)

Thanks for the information, I appreciate it!




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