Too low Tank losses ? (Full Version)

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rob89 -> Too low Tank losses ? (6/25/2018 12:03:30 PM)

I played some eastern front scenarios (Directive 21, Directive 41, etc), and I note vey low tank losses,
expecially for the Soviets. Historically the Red Army lost 10,000+ tanks per year but in the scenarios
there are usually battles involving thousands of men and hundreds of T-34s, ending with huge infantry losses
(for both) but less than 10 tanks destroyed (despite TO&E full of PAKs and other AT weapons)
At the end, all infantry units are understrenght, while there are thousands of T-34s in the inventory.

Where is the problem ?


rob89 -> RE: Too low Tank losses ? (6/24/2019 12:12:43 PM)

I propose this problem again (I hope with more luck [:D] )

Also because I noticed the same phenomenon in the scenario I'm playing these days ("Gotterdammerung"): clashes between mixed units (infantry and armoured) of the two sides, with dozens of losses between the infantry teams and almost no tanks destroyed ...

Just a case as an example: a combined attack by a US ID + a US AD (with support artillery), with an entrenched German ID defending, supported by a StuG Bde in reserve ... BUT only a couple of Shermans destroyed against hundreds of KIAs among both the infantry ... although in the German ID there were PaK and tens of AT teams, in addition to the StuGs ... [&:][&:][&:]

thanks in advance for any clarification

PS : it would seem as if the AT fire & fights are considered "residual" compared to the AP ones, and therefore in many cases they don't happen ...

Lobster -> RE: Too low Tank losses ? (6/24/2019 5:42:48 PM)

Maybe something to do with how the game determines a tanks defensive armor?

cathar1244 -> RE: Too low Tank losses ? (6/24/2019 7:11:35 PM)


I've gone through these kinds of exercises before. The best way IMO to determine if there is a problem is to set up a small scenario with a mix of units and have them attack each other. Have the scenarios run only a few turns. Check the TOAW log file at the end of the scenario, and keep records of losses of whatever aspect you are looking at. Maybe do five to ten runs like this.

Then alter the small scenario. Increase or lessen the number of tanks and run five to ten more iterations. Again, keep records after each run terminates.

It is a tiring process that is not much fun but on occasion interesting in terms of what turns up.

At any rate, once you've produced enough data, you may be able to reach tentative conclusions on if there is a problem and have a better idea of what it is, should it truly exist. Then, present your findings in a thread for comments.


My own test scenarios have not looked at armor losses specifically, although I did one in which swarms of SAM vehicles were able to deal hard losses to World War II tanks on the basis of RBC (retreat before combat) actions. I pinned that result down to a too-high defense strength for those vehicles. I've tested armor losses against different kinds of infantry antitank rockets, and better infantry AT rockets killed more tanks. Note all these tests were in good weather and clear terrain. Anything approximating a regular scenario will introduce a fantastic amount of variation in the results because of terrain, weather, supply, etc.


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