Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (Full Version)

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bcgames -> Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/17/2018 4:44:51 AM)

I'm working on the requirements document for the next game using the Desert War Engine (DWE) and have a very important question for you to answer--why didn't you buy Desert War? Was it the topic? Was it the scale? Was it the documentation? Was it the AI? Size of the scenarios? The reviews? The use of Old School hex system? Pasta? No Pasta? What? Let me know your views.




Erik2 -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/17/2018 7:27:11 AM)

I did buy the game ([;)]), but if I had not it would be for the following reason:
Most of the scenarios have a very large number of units, looks like 200-300 is the norm (?).
I would think that non-grognard players may have issues with this.
So maybe regimental versions (with the occasional battalion) of the scenarios would help?
It would take a fair bit of editing, but removing stuff is easier than adding.





laska2k8 -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/17/2018 8:22:48 AM)

considering to buy but still not convinced.
my pros:
- the wego system.
- the scale
- the editor (if allows a complete scenario creation, not only dlc based)

my cons
- theatre, not a fan of desert combat. I prefer western front, I look for "bulge" in every game I buy.

a little cosmetic failure, the chit graphic, as the light coming SE the counter seems recessed.




76mm -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/17/2018 12:01:38 PM)

I've been following and supporting this game for a long time, and my only reason for not buying yet is that I've been too busy with moving house and some other things to play any games lately. Plan to pick it up at some point.




Saint Ruth -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/17/2018 12:08:20 PM)

I just moved house too. I feel your pain!
Cheers,
Brian




salazarus -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/17/2018 12:38:14 PM)

I'm not interested in that theatre. I love WEGO system so I will probably grab this game on sale.




Yogi the Great -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/17/2018 2:46:31 PM)

I did buy but as time goes on and others become more aware of the game here are some reasons (you've already heard some of them)

Yes large scenarios take a long time to play

The game mechanics are different and time has to be invested to figure it out (learn game)

Even once you think you have at least the basics enough to play, the game is tedious to play. Takes a lot of time, a lot of attention, a lot of clicks which for some means a loss of interest and going to other games or back to your favorites.

Now with that said, the game system is certainly interesting, innovative and has a lot of potential. It will have a loyal following. The question will be can you get enough interested and willing to take the time to buy. You might want to consider finding ways of streamlining so to speak the system and amount of time and detail it takes to do a turn. Thinking of what it takes to do a small scenario it is really hard to think of a large one. Player potentially takes a look at a large scenario and says, yeah maybe some day I'll try it, but not today.




warspite1 -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/17/2018 6:04:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

I'm working on the requirements document for the next game using the Desert War Engine (DWE) and have a very important question for you to answer--why didn't you buy Desert War? Was it the topic? Was it the scale? Was it the documentation? Was it the AI? Size of the scenarios? The reviews? The use of Old School hex system? Pasta? No Pasta? What? Let me know your views.
warspite1

Not quite answering your question but I bought it because of the topic - I want more game of this massively under-appreciated theatre and so wanted to show support.

That said I wasn't thrilled with the lack of a campaign game. The Desert War 1940-43 featuring land sea and air from Gib to Suez is begging to be wargamed - a game that either side could win, a game that has absolutely everything (except carrier vs carrier battles).




Meteor2 -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/17/2018 6:43:33 PM)

I haven`t bought yet. Main reasons to be reluctant are
- lack of a campaign (see warspite1)
- the feeling (maybe wrong), that the AI is scripted heavily and so the replayability is not great (please convince me otherwise)
- the number of units in a standard scenario (?), but that's only a very minor complaint.

The wego system seems to be an innovation, so I would like that.
The theatre is not wrong either.

By the way and I know, that a comparison is nearly impossible:
A game, that makes a lot of things right, is Strategic command. It is a "only one more turn" game, even in the middle of the night. [:D]
Flexibility, tons of decisions, land/air/sea, appropriate/nice graphics, unlimited replayability, mods and support, ...




Okayrun3254 -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/17/2018 8:04:43 PM)

I bought the game, but it is interesting to hear opinions of people who did not.




Kolbex -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/17/2018 11:09:51 PM)

I have not (yet) bought for the following reasons, in ascending order of importance:

* price (it is what it is and I understand why these kinds of games cost so much, but it's a factor for me personally at this time)
* smallish number of scenarios
* apparent busywork required for many or most of the scenarios included, meaning orders have to be given to each chit individually, including individual allocation of supply level, if I've understood correctly

I've seen a few wargames do it "right," in my opinion, i.e. not forcing the player to attend to every little detail: Command Ops 2 puts the computer in charge of the majority of organizational minutiae, the player largely gives broad orders and lets the machine figure out the details; Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm limits the number of orders you can give in a turn, forcing you to think and plan ahead but most importantly reducing the tedium of individual turns (units continue under previously received, not yet completed orders and act on their own initiative [fighting/retreating] under enemy contact); Campaigns on the Danube 1805 & 1809 likewise gives a great deal of initiative to the subordinate AI and in addition has a stellar fog of war option that really fits the flavor of the period.

All of these are WEGO (well, CO2 is pausable real time). Actually, the overwhelming reason I am interested in Desert War is the WEGO nature of turn resolution. I'll likely never play an IGOUGO wargame ever again.




76mm -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/18/2018 2:19:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
That said I wasn't thrilled with the lack of a campaign game. The Desert War 1940-43 featuring land sea and air from Gib to Suez is begging to be wargamed - a game that either side could win, a game that has absolutely everything (except carrier vs carrier battles).

While I could see why you'd want such a game, that is a totally different animal from this game, which focuses on a totally different scale.




warspite1 -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/18/2018 2:38:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
That said I wasn't thrilled with the lack of a campaign game. The Desert War 1940-43 featuring land sea and air from Gib to Suez is begging to be wargamed - a game that either side could win, a game that has absolutely everything (except carrier vs carrier battles).

While I could see why you'd want such a game, that is a totally different animal from this game, which focuses on a totally different scale.
warspite1

Yes I know, the second part of my post needed to be taken in context with the first. As to whether this game could have featured a larger campaign (though not the total Med War) - I'm sure it could, but can see why it wasn't attempted. From comments in previous threads I think the lack of a campaign of any sort did put people off.




Saint Ruth -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/18/2018 8:56:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kolbex
* apparent busywork required for many or most of the scenarios included, meaning orders have to be given to each chit individually, including individual allocation of supply level, if I've understood correctly

Supply is allocated per HQ and there's an option to include subordinate HQs. So you could set the supply level for the entire army in one go.
You can move all the units in a stack in one go too.
But I get your point. You cannot say move 21st Panzer to a destination hex and have the AI move each individual unit.
Thanks for the feedback,
Brian




Kolbex -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/18/2018 8:52:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saint Ruth
Supply is allocated per HQ and there's an option to include subordinate HQs. So you could set the supply level for the entire army in one go.


That's good to know. Still hoping to pick this one up at some point.




Fred98 -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/18/2018 11:17:03 PM)

The screen shots do not show any shortcut way to gather information.

It looks like "work" instead of enjoyable wargame.

I am a fan of SSG's game series.




Rosseau -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/20/2018 3:52:09 AM)

I bought it on release, got the patch, but still haven't built up the energy to learn the mechanics. In fact, after years away, I'm stuck playing the SSG Battles in Italy "Kharkov" scenario. Had no idea it would hook me again.

I know I'll love DW due to the Editor, mostly. With a new and intermediate/advanced game system, anything to ease the learning curve, and I know there are good AARs, videos and tutorials already. Going East Front and tackling slices of the big battles could be one way to add interest. But I still think the initial North Africa focus was a good first move.




Franklin Nimitz -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/20/2018 9:33:53 AM)

Maybe the larger scenarios would be easier to play if you could order entire formations to move together. Say clicking just on the Bde HQ and moving it, and the subunits all move in formation without needing to move them individually. Sort of like Command Ops for those familiar with that game.




kch -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/20/2018 12:38:09 PM)

I havenít bought due three things mainly. 1) feedback regarding the ai where some of the feedback seems to be that it sometimes is non responsive to player actions. (But I must admit that I donít know whether it was just an isolated case). 2) lack of a campaign 3) lack of detailed oob with equipment and manpower counts. I know it is a bit irrelevant but I like to know that I have 103 matildas, 256 25pdr etc and all served by x number of men.




MrLongleg -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/20/2018 10:30:36 PM)

I bought the game and I think the game engine is excellent, and it really shines in PBEM. The AI needs some work, or we need a more active PBEM community. It is quite hard to find opponents.




bcgames -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/22/2018 4:15:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik2
...So maybe regimental versions (with the occasional battalion) of the scenarios would help?
It would take a fair bit of editing, but removing stuff is easier than adding.

Good idea. Will take a crack at this with 1st Alamein in Mods & Scenarios:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4474692




bcgames -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/22/2018 4:20:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

Maybe the larger scenarios would be easier to play if you could order entire formations to move together. Say clicking just on the Bde HQ and moving it, and the subunits all move in formation without needing to move them individually. Sort of like Command Ops for those familiar with that game.

I like this idea as well--but for all scenarios. Like Take Command: Second Manassas. Organization-based movement plotting...anyone else hold a similar view?




76mm -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/22/2018 12:23:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames
I like this idea as well--but for all scenarios. Like Take Command: Second Manassas. Organization-based movement plotting...anyone else hold a similar view?

sure, but I think it would be very difficult to program so that it worked properly?




johng5155 -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/22/2018 5:47:24 PM)

Really like the North African theater, but there are couple issues that are keeping me from purchasing:
1. Lack of any sort of campaign. It does not have to be 40-43, but a series of linked battles where losses and experience carry over would do the trick.
2. Reviews of AI in the Beda Fomm scenario. This seems like a pretty straightforward situation. How will it do in a more complex scenario?




rsallen64 -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/22/2018 7:03:46 PM)

I beta tested but have not yet bought for the simple reason that at the moment I have about 8 games I have yet to start and I'm feeling a little guilty about that, so I don't want to get another one just yet. I tend to have two types of games I play on an ongoing basis: the deep, really make you think and strain your brain games like this and WITP-AE (a current and long term favorite), and the simple no brainer ones, like Mad Max, etc., that I play after a rough day at work when I don't want to use my brain anymore. [:D]

I love the theatre and the concept and gameplay, though, so it is a definite buy in the near future.




Kolbex -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/22/2018 9:27:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

Maybe the larger scenarios would be easier to play if you could order entire formations to move together. Say clicking just on the Bde HQ and moving it, and the subunits all move in formation without needing to move them individually. Sort of like Command Ops for those familiar with that game.

I like this idea as well--but for all scenarios. Like Take Command: Second Manassas. Organization-based movement plotting...anyone else hold a similar view?



Hell yes.

Edit: to expand a bit, my view is that the more a game can replicate the sorts of challenges that face an actual commander, the better. There are a handful of games that handle aspects of this. Maybe no game does as many as Command Ops, but I have a soft spot for turn-based games.

"High-level" Command, i.e. not having to order every single unit for it to take action: Command Ops and Campaigns on the Danube.

Fog of War: Campaigns on the Danube and Command Ops model this quite well.

Orders Delay/Command Load: Command Ops and Flashpoint Campaigns, as well as a board game called Redvers' Reverse.

The Fact That Sometimes Your Commanders Won't Do What You Tell Them To: the Take Command/Scourge of War games and the aforementioned Redvers' Reverse, as well as Flashpoint Campaigns to a lesser extent.

After I became aware of these games, I realized the vast majority of war games weren't in any way simulating what it's like to command in war, they were simulating what it's like to play a board game. This is a legacy of their tabletop roots, but computers enable a far more granular simulation, and more games should take advantage of that.

Shout out as well to Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa, which marries a truly (and unfortunately) unique political layer to the otherwise fairly pedestrian chit pushing of the "main" game. I wish every wargame had something like this, although the scope in an operational game would have to be somewhat different. Perhaps in a hypothetical campaign mode the HQs/units under you could be "commanded" by actual names which become more or less likely to obey orders or goldbrick depending on battle results and whether they "feel" like you spent them recklessly or used them well, etc., or just based on "personality" numbers. The human factor applies at all levels of war. I understand the upcoming game Burden of Command will have something like this on a tactical level, incorporating King of Dragon Pass-like text events into battles.




Searry -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/24/2018 2:13:23 PM)

I personally just like grand strategy. The GG series of games are so good, I dislike a "lesser" scope.
A full game simulating the entire desert war period would be a dream come true. Even the GGWITE expansion lacks this as it begins in late '42 IIRC.

I don't care about AI personally as I always play against another person.

I think pasta would go too far. [:D]




Rasputitsa -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/24/2018 3:51:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

Maybe the larger scenarios would be easier to play if you could order entire formations to move together. Say clicking just on the Bde HQ and moving it, and the subunits all move in formation without needing to move them individually. Sort of like Command Ops for those familiar with that game.

I like this idea as well--but for all scenarios. Like Take Command: Second Manassas. Organization-based movement plotting...anyone else hold a similar view?



Plotting through an HQ order is good, perhaps with some order options, set road move, tactical move, so not just where they move, but how they move.




jjdenver -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/25/2018 12:31:31 AM)

I love the Atomic Games Stalingrad and V4V including Op Crusader games so this game is up my alley I think. I'm pretty sure I will purchase it eventually. However the things that threw me off were:
1) I prefer East Front or at least West Front over Desert.
2) Unit density seemed insane(!!). I am a monster game player and I like a lot of units on the map but I prefer them to be more spread out rather than dealing with tall stacks of units that I have to fiddle through. This looked really tedious in screenshots. If the scale were bumped up a level (for example to regiment with maybe some auxiliary bns) OR the map scale was spread out to spread the units out then I'd probably really like the game a lot better and be more eager to purchase and dig in. Any time that I see more than 3 units stacked in a hex my brain says "uh-oh" major commitment required. And this from a brain that plays and has played tons of monsters.
3) I read that the interface was tough to pick up. One preview said that one of the game devs actually got angry (on a forum I think) at someone who didn't get the interface or didn't like the interface. This felt a bit weird and made me think the devs aren't really interested in helping customers enjoy the game so that put me off but just a bit.
4) I mainly PBEM (AI's are usually too easy) and didn't know if I'd find enough PBEM opponents or not.




laska2k8 -> RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? (5/26/2018 8:41:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: laska2k8

considering to buy but still not convinced.
my pros:
- the wego system.
- the scale
- the editor (if allows a complete scenario creation, not only dlc based)

my cons
- theatre, not a fan of desert combat. I prefer western front, I look for "bulge" in every game I buy.

a little cosmetic failure, the chit graphic, as the light coming SE the counter seems recessed.


so I bought the game, the tutorial pdf has been convincing, still not much interested in the desert combat but I like engine and the wego system.
I hope for a western dlc and I wanted to support the Devs for future release.




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