Dealing with helicopters... (Full Version)

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ctcharger -> Dealing with helicopters... (4/27/2018 7:41:31 PM)

I am playing the scenario with a regiment of Hinds... they just sit there mocking me like a bunch of crows..

How do I safely move my AA units to deal with them?

Should I concentrate my AA units or leave them spread out?





CapnDarwin -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (4/28/2018 1:37:49 PM)

See Kenneth (Waz) fight in this video against a hoard of Mi-24s. He has a good number of AD assets and they are in good position to engage the Hinds in open ground at max range. ALso supported by less effective fires from a number of Brads via 25mm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTMIc2TdSAw

Kenneth has done many vids on the game and they are worth a look! [8D]




ctcharger -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (4/28/2018 4:58:14 PM)

Wow. He was ripping through those Hinds at the start!! That was some good shooting!

I am the NATO player in a PBEM game using this scenario. Well see how it goes. [&:]

A-10s good for taking out helicopters?

I will be checking out his videos!




CapnDarwin -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (4/28/2018 7:13:56 PM)

A-10s can target helicopters. May be hard to hit if other targets are near by the strike area.




ctcharger -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (4/29/2018 2:10:57 PM)

Ok thanks, I wonder how an A-10 pilot would view a group of Hinds that popped up out of the blue (as targets) while on a strike mission.




KungPao -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (8/9/2018 2:07:53 AM)

In an emergency situation you can even use your Artillery to target helicopters

the combat log below record a 81mm Mtr Plt took out 2 Mi-24

quote:


0628 hrs - 1st Mtr - neutralizing fire (3x) in hex 2307
0628 hrs - 1st Mtr : fires 81mm L1 basic hit chance of (12%) against a Mi-24P Hind at a range of 4500m / 1866m
0628 hrs - 1st Mtr (Unidentified enemy units) in 1411 is engaging a helo unit (1 Helo) in hex 2307 at range 4,360m.
0628 hrs - 1st Mtr - new orders received: Barrage: Neutralizing Fire (3x) on hex 2307 at 0631 hrs.


there were some issue on the combat log, it didn't record the hit. The pic below proves that the crew of 1st Mtr plt have brilliant marksman skill. [:D] [:D]


[image]local://upfiles/54176/3101A1CCD1B54C53A128A810834E77BC.gif[/image]




CapnDarwin -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (8/9/2018 3:05:34 AM)

Hovering helos are a target like anybody else caught in the rain. You want ugly, wait until your helos get hit by ICM.




KungPao -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (8/9/2018 3:14:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CapnDarwin

Hovering helos are a target like anybody else caught in the rain. You want ugly, wait until your helos get hit by ICM.

Good to know, Thanks
I haven't got a chance to try ICM on Helo. But I can image devastating effects [8D]




TarkError -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (1/22/2019 7:45:57 PM)

I was playing the mega scenario "The Bear Attacks" the other day and learnt how bad it was to have Apaches on the enemy's side...it's definitely worth putting your AA guns into pre-selected battle positions that will cover likely air approaches (as long as they're not being shot at by enemy ground forces).




CapnDarwin -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (1/22/2019 8:59:42 PM)

That 8km stick on the AH-64s can hurt. A lot. [8D]




Anthropoid -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (3/8/2019 2:36:05 PM)

I'm curious how many battles you guys looked at the records for to consult the performance of the Hinds? Because, in the video by Waz that you linked, his assessment (based on much more play than me) matches up with mine: the success he had in the first couple of command cycles was exeptional, and seemingly "lucky" as much or perhaps more than a result of his setup.

It is difficult to get a sense for how effective the system actually has proven to be against Western foes based on something so superficial as Wiki.

But I find it hard to believe it would prove to be as impregnable as the game seems to suggest it would be.




Zakalwe101 -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (4/7/2019 9:04:47 PM)

Well fortunately there isn't really any real world evidence of how HIND would have performed in a battle against a first class opponent, what we do know is that in Afghanistan the Mujaheddin feared them until they acquired CIA supplied MANPADS which effectively neutralised them.
In other wars they have been up against insurgent forces. I couldn't find any evidence of their use in the First Chechen war , but if they performed as well as the rest of the Russian Federation forces then I don't think they will have come out of it with any credit.
On paper it carries a formidable weapon load, and is heavily armoured,but as was demonstrated by the Russian federation in the first Chechen war a lot hangs on the training of crew ,training as units, reliability of equipment, and equipment preparation, and competence of planning staff. Did the Russian army deteriorate so quickly after the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989 to it's woeful performance in three short years, I think not, I think it was an army rife with corruption, and the threat it posed in real terms not as great as some wanted it to be, of course we can speculate on that now.

Personally though, if the game exaggerates the threat they posed in the real world, I prefer to have them scaring the hell out of me in terms of how the blazes do I deal with them.

The game is very clever in terms of posing threats and not providing easy tools to deal them. e.g T80U that none will fire at , Helicopters but not enough Air defence units, overwhelming artillery coupled with a flood RECON spotting units, Intelligence that says opposing forces amount to 80 to 120 MBT's but usually amount to 200 plus [;)]




Rusty1961 -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (9/28/2019 1:18:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakalwe101

Well fortunately there isn't really any real world evidence of how HIND would have performed in a battle against a first class opponent, what we do know is that in Afghanistan the Mujaheddin feared them until they acquired CIA supplied MANPADS which effectively neutralised them.
In other wars they have been up against insurgent forces. I couldn't find any evidence of their use in the First Chechen war , but if they performed as well as the rest of the Russian Federation forces then I don't think they will have come out of it with any credit.
On paper it carries a formidable weapon load, and is heavily armoured,but as was demonstrated by the Russian federation in the first Chechen war a lot hangs on the training of crew ,training as units, reliability of equipment, and equipment preparation, and competence of planning staff. Did the Russian army deteriorate so quickly after the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989 to it's woeful performance in three short years, I think not, I think it was an army rife with corruption, and the threat it posed in real terms not as great as some wanted it to be, of course we can speculate on that now.

Personally though, if the game exaggerates the threat they posed in the real world, I prefer to have them scaring the hell out of me in terms of how the blazes do I deal with them.

The game is very clever in terms of posing threats and not providing easy tools to deal them. e.g T80U that none will fire at , Helicopters but not enough Air defence units, overwhelming artillery coupled with a flood RECON spotting units, Intelligence that says opposing forces amount to 80 to 120 MBT's but usually amount to 200 plus [;)]



Yet we know how the Apaches performed against a 2nd-rate, 2nd world AAA system which relied upon cold-war era Russia equipment: the Apaches got their butts handed to them.....


quote:

Engagement
The 31 AH-64 Apaches of the 11th Aviation Group took off from Tactical Assembly Area Vicksburg, which was inside Objective Rams. One Apache crashed immediately after takeoff when its pilot became disoriented. When the Apaches turned north toward Karbala, signals intelligence picked up over 50 Iraqi cell phone calls alerting the Iraqi forward units of their approach. As the helicopters came within range, the Iraqis signaled their troops to open fire by turning off the city's power grid for several seconds. Ground troops then opened up with a barrage of PKM, NSV, 23mm, and 57mm fire.

Lieutenant Jason King, pilot of Apache "Palerider 16", was hit by AKM fire[8] in the neck and suffered a severe hemorrhage, but he never lost consciousness.[3] He was later evacuated to Germany for surgery, but returned to his unit a few weeks later.[8] The Apaches were reluctant to return fire as most enemy fire was coming from houses and the risk of collateral damage was high. The helicopters scattered in search of the Medina Division, but were hampered by poor intelligence.[citation needed]

Apache "Vampire 12", flown by Warrant Officers David S. Williams and Ronald D. Young Jr., was forced down into a marsh after gunfire severed its hydraulics. Its radio was also hit, preventing communication with the other helicopters. Attempting to flee the crash scene, both men swam down a canal, but were captured by armed civilians. The Iraqi government would later show the helicopter on TV and claim that it had been shot down by a farmer with a Brno rifle; however due to the high volume of anti-aircraft fire and the armor of the Apache, it is unlikely that a bolt-action rifle was responsible.[9]

The Apaches turned back for Tactical Assembly Area Vicksburg after a half-hour of combat. Most were without functioning navigation equipment. At least two narrowly avoided a mid-air collision.[3] Post-battle analysis indicated the American gunships were targeted in a deliberately planned ambush[10] with cannon fire, RPGs, and small-arms all emanating from camouflaged fire teams.

Aftermath
Of the 29 returning Apaches, all but one suffered serious damage. On average, each Apache had 15-20 bullet holes. One Apache took 29 hits. Sixteen main rotor blades, six tail blades, six engines, and five drive shafts were damaged beyond repair. In one squadron only a single helicopter was fit to fly. It took a month until the 11th Regiment was ready to fight again. The casualties sustained by the Apaches induced a change of tactics by placing significant restrictions on their use.[11] Attack helicopters would henceforth be used to reveal the location of enemy troops, allowing them to be destroyed by artillery and air strikes.[3]


And for those who don't know, an "AKM" is a modified AK47 round.

FUBAR 100%. The modern battlefield is not conducive to pilots. If that had been a first-rate Russian or Chinese AAA network probably most of those 31 Apaches would have been ghosted.




Zakalwe101 -> RE: Dealing with helicopters... (11/4/2019 9:06:15 PM)

I have just watched the Netflix documentary film "Apache Warriors" which deals in detail with the Operation mentioned in Rusty1961's post. It includes footage and recordings of radio transmissions of the participants, and interviews with them. It's very informative. The challenges the Apaches faced were multiple and the troubles they suffered were more due to the circumstances rather than equipment failure.
ENVIRONMENT
Flat, no hills to hide behind (unlike Germany where the unit was usually based and trained.)
Night time operation - clear skies with a full moon against which they were silhouetted.
Flight path took them over heavily populated unfriendly urban area's.
PLANNING
It was hastily planned , with no clear idea of what threats they faced, or the depth of the threat.
They were unaware that they faced not only the AAA of the target division (Medinah ) but also that of a redeployed Infantry Division, plus anyone else who happened to have an AK47.
The enemy AA threat at medium to high altitudes was perceived to be high enough to force them to low altitude.Attack and egress routes were limited to one, as they could not encroach on the airspace of friendly forces to their left and right.
They were under pressure (self imposed?) to undertake the mission, due to not completing an earlier mission.
They also felt that they were under very close scrutiny in respect of use weapons and pressure to not cause any collateral damage (a euphemism for not killing innocent womem and children).So use of defensve fire was limited.
OPPOSITION
Two Divisions worth of AAA and the fire of anyone with a weapon.
A coordinated ambush, unleashing all the AAA at the best moment. (mobile phones used to pass updates on their location, plus use of he towns electricity network to ensure all AAA fired the same time.
Both divisions were experienced, meaning that they had survived the War with Iran and Desert Storm. They knew what they were doing.

Overall the Iraqi army could be described as greatly inferior to the US forces deployed but this was not a second rate air defence.

Given the intensity of the air defence with which they were confronted with - twice - given that their egress route was the same as their entry route, they had no deaths amongst the aircrew, and the loss of only one aircraft, this is a positive testament to both the resilience of the aircrew and the strength of the aircraft.(some aircraft had engine shafts shot through, rotor blades with 20mm hits, avionics shot up).

It is worth considering that these Apaches suffered the same fate aa many British Tornado's did in Desert storm - that the greatest threat to them was AAA, once the British swapped over to high altitude bombing loses dropped to zero, far from being at a greater risk when faced with a Russian or chinese staffed and equipped air defence network I don't think the Apaches would have been at any greater risk - the threat posed by such an air defence network would only increase due to a prevalence of SAM at medium /high altitude which was where Apaches don't operate. A prevalence of low altitude SAM threat (IR or RADAR was recognised and planned for in Germany-had such a threat existed in Iraq then that would have been planned for) US forces worked very hard at elimnating the medium and high altitude SAM threat to their aircraft both in Iraqi Freedom and Desert Storm.

The fact that the Iraqi's appearred to have been armed with Cold war era Soviet designed equipment does not make them 2nd rate air defence weapons. The M2 .50cal machine gun has been in service with the US army since 1933, and is used by most "western powers".





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