Interdicting the Magic Highway (Full Version)

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Rusty1961 -> Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/17/2018 4:42:39 PM)

Not sure exactly said Highway works, but if the J player off-loads the fuel at say Bangkok or Cam Rahn Bay, can I destroy some of the stock by bombing Haiphong and/or Hanoi?

Also, does it costs supply to move the oil/fuel along the Highway?




Aurorus -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/17/2018 4:58:31 PM)

It is very difficult to have large quantities of fuel move from Singapore over land permanently. In an attempt to move fuel overland, I think what some Japanese players will do is set the home-port of a large number of xAKs to Camh Ran Bay, Saigon, Haiphong, and Hong Kong. Fuel will flow to these local ports from Singapore in quantities sufficient to provision these ships. Getting the fuel to flow further on, into Hong Kong and points east, is much more difficult, because it tends to return to Singapore rather than move on to Hong Kong as the need lessens in Saigon, Camh Ran Bay, and Haiphong. Manipulating all of the settings necessary to move the fuel to Hong Kong, and rebasing ships from Camh Ran Bay to Hong Kong to keep the fuel flowing is as difficult or more difficult than merely transporting it by TK and AO.

If you suspect that your opponent is trying to make fuel flow overland by setting ships with home-ports at Saigon, Camn Ran Bay, and Haiphong, what I recommend is bombing the ports there. Also naval strikes with sufficient range to reach these ports to catch ships doing nothing more than loitering there in order to draw fuel into the port.

Whatever the case, oil will not flow from Singapore to Korea in any quantity, no matter what measures are taken. (at least nothing that I have been able to do). So, the best and simplest way to interdict materials flowing to Japan is with submarines.




rustysi -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/17/2018 5:29:25 PM)

quote:

can I destroy some of the stock by bombing Haiphong and/or Hanoi?


The short answer is yes. If you target the port and get 'port fuel' hits some will be destroyed.

quote:

Also, does it costs supply to move the oil/fuel along the Highway?


Not 100% sure, but I don't think so.

As Aurorus says I too don't think its easy to get fuel/oil moving overland. I have tried to get that fuel/oil in northern China south with some limited success. I have gotten quite a bit of resources to do it, but generally don't use this method. Reason is simple, had Japan done it I'm sure the Allies would have tried to intercept. The game doesn't accomodate such efforts. You can't destroy resources by bombing a base.




Lowpe -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/17/2018 5:50:38 PM)

The ships don't need to be physically at the port to increase the fuel supply draw there, only their home port needs setting.





Aurorus -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/17/2018 8:19:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The ships don't need to be physically at the port to increase the fuel supply draw there, only their home port needs setting.




They must be active somewhere, however, and not disbanded. So long as they are active, they are burning some fuel, which means that any fuel that moves via the magic highway is not "free" of cost. I believe also that if they are loitering in a port, they will tend to draw fuel to that port in addition to the port they have set as their "home port." So these loitering ships are causing problems in fuel flow somewhere else.

Also, any ships disbanded at Singapore will tend to pull the fuel back to Singapore rather than move it forward to Hong Kong and then Korea. It seems to me to be a crazy strategy not to use the port of Singapore, its repair facilities, its storage facilities for fuel and oil, its central location, and so forth... all to improve the flow of fuel from Singapore overland to China and Korea.

The point is fully "exploiting" the magic highway has hidden costs that probably outweigh the benefits of moving fuel via this route.




geofflambert -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/17/2018 11:14:17 PM)

Singapore is a great place to store oil, for a time. Fuel on the other hand seems to move freely and readily. How would HI operate otherwise? Just bank the oil at Singapore and start moving it when convenient. Now, to Aurorus.
Whatever the case, Halle Berry will not date me to any extent at all, no matter what measures are taken. (at least nothing that I have been able to do). So, the best and simplest way to ... I better stop there.




Lowpe -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/18/2018 2:31:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

They must be active somewhere, however, and not disbanded.


Yeah, docked at some huge unused port on Honshu. Not hard to do. Plus docked is safer than disbanded in port for when the 4E beasts come calling.[;)]




Aurorus -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/18/2018 4:56:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Singapore is a great place to store oil, for a time. Fuel on the other hand seems to move freely and readily. How would HI operate otherwise? Just bank the oil at Singapore and start moving it when convenient. Now, to Aurorus.
Whatever the case, Halle Berry will not date me to any extent at all, no matter what measures are taken. (at least nothing that I have been able to do). So, the best and simplest way to ... I better stop there.


Who is Halle Berry?




Rusty1961 -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/18/2018 5:38:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

They must be active somewhere, however, and not disbanded.


Yeah, docked at some huge unused port on Honshu. Not hard to do. Plus docked is safer than disbanded in port for when the 4E beasts come calling.[;)]



That needs to be fixed. How docked is different from being in Port w/r/t air bombardment is beyond me.




Lowpe -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/18/2018 7:18:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

They must be active somewhere, however, and not disbanded.


Yeah, docked at some huge unused port on Honshu. Not hard to do. Plus docked is safer than disbanded in port for when the 4E beasts come calling.[;)]



That needs to be fixed. How docked is different from being in Port w/r/t air bombardment is beyond me.


Well, the ships docked are super vulnerable to naval attack, but immune from port attack. But often times the the Allied deep air recon is looking at troops, economic assets, ports and runways, not the dock.




GetAssista -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/19/2018 2:51:10 PM)

Fuel overland transport works great if you know what you are doing. At max capacity it is definitely gamey because you don't needing tankers for fuel at all, apart from collecting from DEI to Singers, and shipping from Fusan to HIs. It is tedious and click intensive though.

1. Set all major ports on the highway to stockpile fuel
2. Set stockiple off at Singers. Set home port for your CV/BB TFs to Bangkok. Wait 1 turn (to let the signal reach the fuel distribution algorythm, because TF needs are assessed after the fuel movement)
3. Set stockpile off at Bangkok. Set home port for your CV/BB TFs to Cam Ranh. Wait 1 turn
...repeat 3 for other ports along the highway one step further at a time
n. Goto 1

Each wave transfers around 150k fuel. CV/BB TFs can do their jobs as usual, the only drawback is they would retreat to home base if tasked. So it is adviceable to pause the clicking and stockpile everywhere along the way if combat is expected soon, then continue.

Interdiction with bombing is largely ineffective. Good interdiction would be Chinese blocking the roads in the blind spots along the highway. If there are blind spots or Chinese left that is




Aurorus -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/20/2018 1:05:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Fuel overland transport works great if you know what you are doing. At max capacity it is definitely gamey because you don't needing tankers for fuel at all, apart from collecting from DEI to Singers, and shipping from Fusan to HIs. It is tedious and click intensive though.

1. Set all major ports on the highway to stockpile fuel
2. Set stockiple off at Singers. Set home port for your CV/BB TFs to Bangkok. Wait 1 turn (to let the signal reach the fuel distribution algorythm, because TF needs are assessed after the fuel movement)
3. Set stockpile off at Bangkok. Set home port for your CV/BB TFs to Cam Ranh. Wait 1 turn
...repeat 3 for other ports along the highway one step further at a time
n. Goto 1

Each wave transfers around 150k fuel. CV/BB TFs can do their jobs as usual, the only drawback is they would retreat to home base if tasked. So it is adviceable to pause the clicking and stockpile everywhere along the way if combat is expected soon, then continue.

Interdiction with bombing is largely ineffective. Good interdiction would be Chinese blocking the roads in the blind spots along the highway. If there are blind spots or Chinese left that is



Lol... you are crazy.. setting your CVs to these home ports. Why not just set 100 xAKLs to each port? BBs too. Setting the BBs, not disbanded, in a port, any port, will use more fuel than transporting fuel via TKs, I suspect. Again, why not 100 xAKLs. Of course, this uses fuel too, but not as much as those BBs.

The AI uses the home port of a TF to determine if that TF has enough fuel in each ship to return to port. If a TF does not, the game may automatically transfer fuel between ships in the TF, which uses operations points. Your CVs could lose half their operations points at a crucial moment transferring fuel to DDs so that they have enough to return to Haiphong from SoPac.




PaxMondo -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/20/2018 1:13:14 AM)

GA's technique will work, but you can also get it to work without all that machination in about 87% of the time. I've posted before how, it works. It is easiest to do this to PA or Shanghai, but Fusan is possible. Not only for fuel, but also for oil/resources. It is all about creating a draw at your desired port on Dec 7, 1941 and keeping it going the whole game. The resource (here I mean all of the resources that move) AI has a fair amount of derivative in it, meaning it resists change. So, once it starts moving 'stuff' to a port, it has a tendency for that to continue. So you start it right away, and continue to build upon that initiative.

Once you get it setup, you just increase it as you conquer going west across China until you connect with SE Asia. At that point, if you haven't used Singers/Saigon too much (created draws there), then the suck from Hanoi east will draw from there. I've only gotten draw from Rangoon to work once ... those 2 hexes between Rangoon and Chiang Mai with no road/no RR create a real impediment to anything moving as any IJ player knows.

As noted, bombing any base along the route would clearly have an impact. Taking a base or blocking an RR/road will rapidly degrade the quality of transit to the point of breaking it within a few turns.




Aurorus -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/20/2018 1:21:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

GA's technique will work, but you can also get it to work without all that machination in about 87% of the time. I've posted before how, it works. It is easiest to do this to PA or Shanghai, but Fusan is possible. Not only for fuel, but also for oil/resources. It is all about creating a draw at your desired port on Dec 7, 1941 and keeping it going the whole game. The resource (here I mean all of the resources that move) AI has a fair amount of derivative in it, meaning it resists change. So, once it starts moving 'stuff' to a port, it has a tendency for that to continue. So you start it right away, and continue to build upon that initiative.

Once you get it setup, you just increase it as you conquer going west across China until you connect with SE Asia. At that point, if you haven't used Singers/Saigon too much (created draws there), then the suck from Hanoi east will draw from there. I've only gotten draw from Rangoon to work once ... those 2 hexes between Rangoon and Chiang Mai with no road/no RR create a real impediment to anything moving as any IJ player knows.

As noted, bombing any base along the route would clearly have an impact. Taking a base or blocking an RR/road will rapidly degrade the quality of transit to the point of breaking it within a few turns.



I have no idea how you were able to have oil and resources move along the highway. I have never been able to do that no matter what I have done. I have only tried this a few times against the AI, however. I think it would be gamey in a PBEM if I were able to move oil and resources via rail from Malaysia to Korea. However, what is or is not "gamey" is personal opinion, and my opinions on this matter are not relevant to others.




GetAssista -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/20/2018 10:17:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
Lol... you are crazy.. setting your CVs to these home ports. Why not just set 100 xAKLs to each port? BBs too. Setting the BBs, not disbanded, in a port, any port, will use more fuel than transporting fuel via TKs, I suspect. Again, why not 100 xAKLs. Of course, this uses fuel too, but not as much as those BBs.

That's why I said use it with caution. There are lots of moments when your CV/BB fleets are stationary doing nothing. If not, then you are playing it wrong and will run out of fuel by 44, eh ;) Also, in my experience 100 xAKs do not creat as much demand for fuel as CV/BBs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
I have no idea how you were able to have oil and resources move along the highway. I have never been able to do that no matter what I have done.
This was my experience too. Singers is too strong a magnet to overcome with no constant additional push. In principle you can station a lot of xAKs in major ports and use the same approach as in fuel case, with stepwise demand creation. Now, those AK hordes would be a good target for bombing




Aurorus -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/20/2018 12:44:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
Lol... you are crazy.. setting your CVs to these home ports. Why not just set 100 xAKLs to each port? BBs too. Setting the BBs, not disbanded, in a port, any port, will use more fuel than transporting fuel via TKs, I suspect. Again, why not 100 xAKLs. Of course, this uses fuel too, but not as much as those BBs.

That's why I said use it with caution. There are lots of moments when your CV/BB fleets are stationary doing nothing. If not, then you are playing it wrong and will run out of fuel by 44, eh ;) Also, in my experience 100 xAKs do not creat as much demand for fuel as CV/BBs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
I have no idea how you were able to have oil and resources move along the highway. I have never been able to do that no matter what I have done.
This was my experience too. Singers is too strong a magnet to overcome with no constant additional push. In principle you can station a lot of xAKs in major ports and use the same approach as in fuel case, with stepwise demand creation. Now, those AK hordes would be a good target for bombing



If the BBs and CVs are not disbanded, they still use fuel. I had my old BBs stationed at Akyab in my game against Opilot for a month, not disbanded, and they burned 3/4 of their capacity. This was costly, in terms of fuel, but necessary to prevent British naval bombardments and build up the base. I do not have any hard numbers, but I suspect that using TKs to move the fuel is more efficient. However, if the objective is to avoid submarines, that is a different matter.

As to moving some fuel via the highway, this is unavoidable if the highway is open, because it would be ridiculous for the Japanese to deny themselves the use of the ports at Cam Ranh Bay, Saigon, Haiphong, and Hong Kong to avoid having fuel move from on port to another.

I find the CVs can be at sea much more often than seems to be common wisdom: provided, of course, that the BBs are not. I should note that in my two current games, I took the DEI immediately and prevented any withdrawal of fuel or oil, which provided me about 500,000 additional fuel, or the equivalent of 4 or 5 months of sorties for the original CVs in a scenario 1 game. There are so many advantages to taking the DEI immediately that I have come to believe that it is "the only correct" plan for Japan in a scenario 1 game.




Macclan5 -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/20/2018 1:37:57 PM)

Ser Alfred did a dissertation which can be found amongst the links in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4068928&mpage=1&key=supply%2C101�

Logistics 101.

Movement occurs because of "demand" not because of "supply".


While I am no expert I think I understand it.

Simply the entire purpose of establish fleets of ships in Saigon, CRB, Hong Kong is to create a "high demand sink hole". Those are the terms expressed in the threads above.

High demand will suck oil, fuel, supplies and resources (less so the latter) from Singapore if you nurture it.

The rate of oil, fuel, supply, and resource transfer is dictated by the quality of road. CRB represents a good 'high demand sink hole' location if I recall correctly because it is all railroad and major road connections. No secondary or minor roads.

The problem of trying to establish magic highways further east in China would be the interruption and slow down by secondary road.

If you invest enough time and tankers "sucking oil and fuel" out of CBR or Vihn for example, then toggle the storage on, I am certain you can create the magic highway.

However there must be an opportunity cost as noted by others above. Why not use the tanker time to simply haul from Singapore in the first instance ??

To interdict the magic highway - get a Para Battalion onto a port along the road. Dig in. Hold until relieved.





Rusty1961 -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/20/2018 2:21:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

They must be active somewhere, however, and not disbanded.


Yeah, docked at some huge unused port on Honshu. Not hard to do. Plus docked is safer than disbanded in port for when the 4E beasts come calling.[;)]



That needs to be fixed. How docked is different from being in Port w/r/t air bombardment is beyond me.


Well, the ships docked are super vulnerable to naval attack, but immune from port attack. But often times the the Allied deep air recon is looking at troops, economic assets, ports and runways, not the dock.



Not sure you understand what I'm saying,"What is the physical difference between being "docked" and being in Port"?

I understand the difference in the game, but in real life, how are they different.




BBfanboy -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/20/2018 2:52:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

They must be active somewhere, however, and not disbanded.


Yeah, docked at some huge unused port on Honshu. Not hard to do. Plus docked is safer than disbanded in port for when the 4E beasts come calling.[;)]



That needs to be fixed. How docked is different from being in Port w/r/t air bombardment is beyond me.


Well, the ships docked are super vulnerable to naval attack, but immune from port attack. But often times the the Allied deep air recon is looking at troops, economic assets, ports and runways, not the dock.



Not sure you understand what I'm saying,"What is the physical difference between being "docked" and being in Port"?

I understand the difference in the game, but in real life, how are they different.

Docked is actually tied up along a pier. In Port is disbanded and anchored in the harbour or roadstead. Docked ships still have steam raised, ready to sail as soon as they can cast off. Disbanded ships have cold boilers and cannot move quickly (although if land units take the base the ship can usually raise steam before they get captured).

EDIT: to add the third situation - your ships are in a TF in the port hex, but not docked - these TFs are shown as "At Sea"




GetAssista -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/20/2018 5:36:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
If the BBs and CVs are not disbanded, they still use fuel. I had my old BBs stationed at Akyab in my game against Opilot for a month, not disbanded, and they burned 3/4 of their capacity. This was costly, in terms of fuel, but necessary to prevent British naval bombardments and build up the base. I do not have any hard numbers, but I suspect that using TKs to move the fuel is more efficient. However, if the objective is to avoid submarines, that is a different matter.

As to moving some fuel via the highway, this is unavoidable if the highway is open, because it would be ridiculous for the Japanese to deny themselves the use of the ports at Cam Ranh Bay, Saigon, Haiphong, and Hong Kong to avoid having fuel move from on port to another.

I find the CVs can be at sea much more often than seems to be common wisdom: provided, of course, that the BBs are not...

Aww come on, you are catching at straws there.
- Docked TFs do not consume fuel, undocked stationary ones use 1 hex worth a turn, which is acceptable for all intents and purposes. Both create fuel demand at port designated as home. Not to mention you can always tailor your fuel pushes to safer times during TF voyages, and hit stockpile inbetween.
- Port usage is not blocked in any way, there is still fuel in all the highway ports for regular operations. Also, stockpiling does not prevent refuelling.
- We are talking 43/44 highway usage (when the highway becomes actually open) not first 6 months of running around with CVs.




PaxMondo -> RE: Interdicting the Magic Highway (3/21/2018 2:04:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

Ser Alfred did a dissertation which can be found amongst the links in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4068928&mpage=1&key=supply%2C101�

Logistics 101.

Movement occurs because of "demand" not because of "supply".


Exactly. Back when I wrote this all up (4 years ago? 5?) a fair number of players demonstrated in games that they could replicate it. Is it easy? not the first time. Once you get a few of the nuances, pretty straightforward.

Anyway, if you can it helps with the ASW. If not, you burn ~12% of your fuel moving stuff by sea. Noticeable, but most players are not fuel bound anymore, it is all supply-bound. Against Andy AI in my games, fuel is more of an issue. I have to move my fleets a lot more to respond to all of the 'incursions' ...




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