Tutorial - Submarine Operations (Full Version)

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chops -> Tutorial - Submarine Operations (2/11/2018 2:45:26 AM)

I have run into difficulty with Phase 3 of the Submarine Operations Tutorial (Sub vs. Warship and Helicopter).

My sub is always destroyed by torpedoes launched from the Helicopter.

I have tried staying below the layer and deploying a passive sonar array above the layer, however, I never detect anything. How does one know that the sonar array is actually deployed?

When I go above the layer, I can sometimes detect the ship but never the helicopter, and the next thing I know, my sub is sinking. I always stay at creep speed. Also, I was unable to deploy torpedo decoys when the Helicopter launched torpedoes.

Any suggestion's or techniques in how to destroy the ship/helicopter and spoof incoming torpedoes?




apache85 -> RE: Tutorial - Submarine Operations (2/11/2018 4:16:30 AM)

It's really hard.

I'm working on a set of submarine tutorials to be released with Silent Service (the attack on the Udaloy you're having trouble with will actually be the final test), so hopefully that will introduce you to tactics and theory while building confidence over the set.

In the mean time, try to approach the Udaloy in the layer (not below, it has a VDS and towed array that are better than the hull sonars, stay above the layer) and try to time any attack so that the helicopter is on deck.

Don't be disheartened, it is a really hard task. A more gentle and forgiving set of tutorials should be out soon (weeks, not months) [:)]




Cik -> RE: Tutorial - Submarine Operations (2/11/2018 6:21:41 AM)

often the best you can hope for is a mutual kill. AFAIK the udaloy will hear your launch transient (which i'm pretty sure is modeled) almost no matter what, so even if you fire point-blank to make sure it doesn't survive long enough to fix your position and then drop unlimited torpedoes on you.. your only hope for a total victory is to hit the destroyer while it's helicopter is on the deck- which you have no way of knowing because if you go to periscope depth you'll probably die instantly as soon as you leave the layer let alone pop up your eyeballs which will probably be detected by the udaloy's surface search radar.

tl;dr like apache says, as a "tutorial" it's extremely difficult, and really i would never expect even an expert player to reliably achieve total victories against what is after all a ship designed to hard counter your sub.

note though that it does get a lot easier if you can offboard some sensors. a single AEW/air tracking radar pointed at the udaloy's vicinity will tell you reliably whether the heli is on the deck or not and so you can time your strike correctly. but with only the periscope to tell you whether or not you can attack you are pretty SOL imo.

this may change depending on the weather and depth of the ocean. there are a few situations in which victory would be achievable fairly regularly but the one in the scenario isn't one. even played as efficiently as possible with a fairly thorough knowledge of what the best decision to make at every crossroads is, the weapons and sensors of the enemy are good enough that your approach options are are very limited and so you will often die (often without warning) because after all it's an udaloy at 5 kn with a KA-27(?) pretty much the worst possible scenario you can be in if your mission involves sinking something as a sub.

tl;dr don't worry about failing the final part if you understand the theory. i don't know if i've ever encountered a "real" scenario that requires you to take out an ASW-focused destroyer with a lone sub, because most scenario designers would consider that a suicide mission.




TyphoonFr -> RE: Tutorial - Submarine Operations (2/11/2018 1:30:08 PM)

Hello,

I played the scenario with v1.14. The Udaloy and his 2 helicopters are formidable opponents but not invincible.

The Udaloy also has SS-N-15 which drops torpedoes to 22nm. So even without helicopters avoid dragging in the area. elsewhere, some of you have hit you, that's why you did not see it coming.

Regarding the sensors, its hull sonar (active and passive) has a range of 16nm and allows it to monitor above the layer and has a blind spot of 90 to the rear.
Its towed arrays (passive) and VDS (active) have a range of 8nm and monitor below the layer over 360 .

If the boat goes too fast and cavits (sup 8 or 13kts), the hull sonar's abilities are degraded.

To make simple an active sonar "sees you" (making noise) even if you do not make noise, and passive sonar, "hear you" when you make noise. Imagine that you are out in the dark and that you are looking for someone who is so hiding, you have with you a flashlight (your active sonar). You have the choice be you turn on your flashlight (your active sonar) and you go may be seeing him but he too will see you. Or you make no noise and you listen (your passive sonar), but if it makes no noise you do not hear it. Obviously if you walk or run, the sound of your footsteps will hide the sound of his footsteps.
You can detect active sonar but not passive sonar.

By default in Command, when you create a patrol mission; the radar is active.
So before entering the area goes up to periscope depth to try to capture its radar emission. You can also use the convergence areas to find a ship.
Also think about turning off the radar in mission doctrine if you create a Patrol mission. Otherwise it will automatically activate at periscope depth.

The MK48 is a torpedo that can reach 27nm if you modify "Kinetic range for torpedoes" in the doctrine.
It is wire-guided, once it has left the submarine you can fly it like a submarine. Its range will depend on its speed 27nm at 50kt or 20nm at 65kt.
You can make it travel in or under layer to avoid detection.
Since v1.14, when you guide a torpedo your speed is clamped to 10kt until your torpedo disappears (by destruction or over fuel, about 32 minutes for an MK 48) or if you are under attack weapon.
Impossible to shoot in the axis and to spin full gas, it is necessary to wait for the disappearance of your torpedo to exceed 10kt.
Then, if your torpedo is detected, Command creates a "probable sub contact"
in the direction from which the torpedo comes. The helicopter will investigate the area of "probable sub contact" .It is therefore thought to bring your torpedo from a different direction than your submarine.

In Command, you do not hear the helicopters flying, you detect the sonar sources of their active sonar dipping (HF sonar) when they are hovering. The operation lasts about 4 minutes, then it changes position if you are detected, it will approach you until you identify and attack you.
The helicopter can detect you by flying over you with a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) with a horizontal range of 1nm but a vertical range of over 2500ft.
The helicopters drop buoys, active and passive (according to their ASW loading). You can detect active buoys but not passive ones. A buoy that detects you is returning your position to a helicopter or a plane that is patrolling near the buoy. If the helicopter or airplane is too far away or is not in the air, you will not be detected.
A helicopter has 1 or 2 torpedoes max, after their shooting, the helicopter returns to refuel, the operation lasts 30min (if the option "Quick turnaround" has been activated) or 4 hours.
When a helicopter is in the air and you destroy the boat that serves as a base. The Helico looks for a new base. Depending on his distance, he may abandon his mission and try to join his new base. If there is no base available, he will continue his mission until the breakdown of fuel ... .
I'm going to stop there because I'm running out of fuel too. Try to play the scenario from the editor to see your mistakes and when you are detected.

Do not hesitate to correct me or to complete me.

Good hunt !





chops -> RE: Tutorial - Submarine Operations (2/11/2018 7:56:55 PM)

Wow, thank you guys for the detailed assistance! That helps my understanding.

I was checking out the tutorial to learn more about subs in preparation for the new DLC. I will look forward to the new sub tutorials as well.

Can you please explain how to deploy the sub torpedo decoys? I was unable to do so, and the message said something about WRA. I looked at WRA settings but could not figure it out.

Additionally, I was unsure about deploying passive and active sonar arrays or buoys from the sub. I did not see any confirmation or way to tell if they were deployed.




apache85 -> RE: Tutorial - Submarine Operations (2/11/2018 11:28:35 PM)

Hey chops,

The sub torpedo decoys deploy automatically, like chaff/flares and DECM on aircraft its all handled by the AI as part of the to-hit calculations. One of the differences with torpedoes is the re-attack mechanism, so if a torpedo is decoyed it will likely come around for another pass (although it may also be a dud; see the 1.14 beta release notes).

There's no bouys deployed from subs or surface ships in CMANO, although you may see in some of the Silent Service screen shots theres some options there for streaming antennas etc. These are special actions that are written in on a per-scenario basis and don't form part of the base game.

As for towed arrays, your submarine will automatically deploy a towed array if it has one in deep water, and automatically retract it in shallow water. I'm not sure exactly what the depth is off the top of my head, but it is in the CMANO manual in the section on the sonar model.

Hope that helps!




chops -> RE: Tutorial - Submarine Operations (2/12/2018 3:04:12 PM)

Thank you - I found some information on the Towed Arrays/VDS (Variable Depth Sonar) on Pg. 132 Section 8.7 in the Manual.




thewood1 -> RE: Tutorial - Submarine Operations (2/15/2018 3:18:56 PM)

"By default in Command, when you create a patrol mission; the radar is active."

Are you sure that is true? I only see this when I set EMCOM and patrol parameters that way. I just created an ASW mission with a sub and the radar and sonar were off by default. My sub stayed at patrol depth.

Also...

"In Command, you do not hear the helicopters flying"

I thought subs at shallow depth could get a potential aircraft contact from a low flying helicopter. I'll have to track that down.




TyphoonFr -> RE: Tutorial - Submarine Operations (2/15/2018 4:26:12 PM)

I have just redo the test and, by default, in a mission patrol, the radar is on.
In a submarine, the radar only activates when it is surfacing or is at periscopic depth ...

V1.14 build 998.2

Video attached (Poor quality is due to file limit, sorry)




thewood1 -> RE: Tutorial - Submarine Operations (2/15/2018 6:01:23 PM)

You are correct. I did something wrong somewhere. Radar was listed as active. If I send it to periscope depth, radar comes on. Sorry for the extra work.




apache85 -> RE: Tutorial - Submarine Operations (2/15/2018 6:59:01 PM)

As for the submarines getting a contact on a low flying aircraft, this is not part of the sonar model; you can however get a 'bogey' sonar contact from an aircraft if it uses dipping sonar in active mode which may explain the situation described. Best bet for spotting an aircraft with a sub is ESM, followed distantly by periscope (it seems the periscope has a long 'sweep' time as well as a narrow field of view, which is realistic)

And as mentioned above, here are the first four in a series of twelve submarine tutorials. Hopefully they will be much more informative and accessible than trying to creep up on a Udaloy and sink it [;)]

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4436935




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