Coastal Artillery Question (Full Version)

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Dr. Foo -> Coastal Artillery Question (1/4/2018 5:56:05 PM)

I've noticed when a naval unit is engaged by sea interdiction by coastal artillery the coastal artillery unit is eliminated. Is this working as intended?




larryfulkerson -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (1/4/2018 6:23:30 PM)

I've had that happen too. I'd like to know the answer myself.




Curtis Lemay -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (1/4/2018 6:59:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

I've noticed when a naval unit is engaged by sea interdiction by coastal artillery the coastal artillery unit is eliminated. Is this working as intended?

Counterbattery from the naval unit.




Dr. Foo -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (1/4/2018 7:05:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Counterbattery from the naval unit.


Thank you, but if I take the exact same unit and change it to a regular artillery unit the naval unit is unable to eliminate it through naval bombardment. If it is coastal artillery it's toast, if it's artillery it survives, but will not conduct sea interdiction.

I need to do more testing of different situations.




PatSpe -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (1/4/2018 7:42:55 PM)

I think the coastal artillery units get destroyed when they get a retreat result against them, i.e when the ships fire back. Is all coastal artillery fixed?




Dr. Foo -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (1/4/2018 7:47:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatSpe

I think the coastal artillery units get destroyed when they get a retreat result against them, i.e when the ships fire back. Is all coastal artillery fixed?


Yes, the coastal artillery icon is a fixed unit, so the retreat explanation makes sense. In testing though the same ship firing against the same coastal artillery with the icon changed to regular artillery does not result in a retreat.

A ship has a 100% chance of completely eliminated coastal artillery but a next to nothing chance of eliminating regular artillery.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (1/4/2018 9:14:40 PM)

The regular artillery can displace but the coastal units are fixed and therefore sitting ducks ? Naval units will usually take damage from the coast artillery before they are silenced.




Cabido -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (2/11/2019 4:22:28 PM)

But the retreat explanation makes no sense. You can have a plausible explanation for normal fixed units being treated differently from coastal units, due to the greater exposition of the last, as stated by Lobster. Or based on retreat, as in the post, even if I can't judge it's plausibility. But what would explain the fact that the same coastal unit being fired upon by the same vessel is always eliminated with counter fire (after interdiction) and be able to survive ten rounds with normal bombardment? What would explain the EXTREMELY MORE EFFECTIVE power of counter fire vs simple bombardment from the same vessel with the same guns?

I'm not comparing normal fixed guns with coastal guns anymore. It's just that:

A fires at B with counter fire for one round. B is always eliminated.
A fires at B with normal bombardment order. B can survive ten rounds of bombardment.




Lobster -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (2/11/2019 10:03:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cabido

But the retreat explanation makes no sense.



They should not retreat at all. I can see them retreating when attacked by land but not from ship to shore fire. That makes no sense. These things need to be handled differently. Some changes in the new naval stuff should be done so these guns are either disabled or disorganized (silenced). If silenced they can be reactivated. If disabled they can no longer fire. Also, there needs to be different levels of coastal guns. Casements and open fortifications. I'm kind of curious how so much time could be spent on the naval side and this gets missed. [;)]




cathar1244 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (2/12/2019 6:38:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cabido

But the retreat explanation makes no sense. You can have a plausible explanation for normal fixed units being treated differently from coastal units, due to the greater exposition of the last, as stated by Lobster. Or based on retreat, as in the post, even if I can't judge it's plausibility. But what would explain the fact that the same coastal unit being fired upon by the same vessel is always eliminated with counter fire (after interdiction) and be able to survive ten rounds with normal bombardment? What would explain the EXTREMELY MORE EFFECTIVE power of counter fire vs simple bombardment from the same vessel with the same guns?

I'm not comparing normal fixed guns with coastal guns anymore. It's just that:

A fires at B with counter fire for one round. B is always eliminated.
A fires at B with normal bombardment order. B can survive ten rounds of bombardment.


Cabido, I noted your comment reminded me of similar comments regarding the difference in effectiveness of computer-controlled air interdiction strikes versus player-directed air bombardment. As in,

quote:

My original complaint still stands...why are BOMBARDMENT ATTACKS (especially using airpower) so weak vis a vis computer initiated INTERDICTION ATTACKS (which appear to be quite effective and even dont seem to suffer losses like the Bombardments).

So, once more, for the record...Air power AS A WHOLE seems OK in its effects....this is largely because Interdiction IS effective. Bombardment by air is completely ineffective, even when called in on the SAME target status (ie, mobile and moving along a road or clear area). I contend that the disparity should not be anywhere NEAR this great.


That from this thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1173428&mpage=5&key=

That was from the TOAW III days, not sure if the issue was ever addressed in the form of a change to the code.

Cheers




Lobster -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (2/12/2019 12:21:45 PM)

One thing about interdiction vs bombing troops. Interdiction takes place during movement. That would assume troops are generally exposed. Bombardment takes place while troops are not moving. That would assume troops are dispersed.




cathar1244 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (2/12/2019 12:33:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

One thing about interdiction vs bombing troops. Interdiction takes place during movement. That would assume troops are generally exposed. Bombardment takes place while troops are not moving. That would assume troops are dispersed.


Lobster, I understand what you're saying but non-moving troops get hit by interdiction as well (and MY is it effective!). I've seen this with an immobile SAM battery. SAMs got hammered by interdiction, so somehow they got identified as a "target of opportunity". Player directed air strikes were much less effective, although theoretically the SAM unit's deployment state had not altered.

Cheers




Lobster -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (2/12/2019 2:42:43 PM)

Sorry, only play WW2 and never had a non moving unit interdicted. I can see how an active SAM site would be interdicted simply because it is active and yes, it is VERY effective. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Weasel




cathar1244 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (2/12/2019 4:42:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Sorry, only play WW2 and never had a non moving unit interdicted. I can see how an active SAM site would be interdicted simply because it is active and yes, it is VERY effective. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Weasel


Okay. But is that what the game is simulating, or is this something else in code that happens to look like SAM suppression with anti-radiation missiles? Time to run the lab scenario again.

Cheers




Cabido -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (2/12/2019 5:38:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
One thing about interdiction vs bombing troops. Interdiction takes place during movement. That would assume troops are generally exposed. Bombardment takes place while troops are not moving. That would assume troops are dispersed.


Guys, just to settle down the problem with coastal guns. I've seen the discussion now is about air interdiction of troops. Maybe the game treats interdiction and bombardment differently in that case, yet the manual says nothing about it. But regarding coastal guns, we can fall into the trap of taking the game as an oracle which messages must be interpreted and justified. Even if I don't know anything about naval warfare, there is clearly a bug with counter fire against coastal guns interdiction.

As you can see in the image attached, they can survive bombardments from a naval vessel for 9 rounds, here. They would be eliminated in one round by the counter fire of the same naval vessel after they try to interdict it, as noted in the first post of the parallel thread (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4591514). Notice that here we can't justify it by saying the guns are dispersed or housed when idle, for the simple fact that in both situation they are actively firing. When interdicting, they fire first and suffer counter fire; when bombarded, they counter fire themselves (see the damage caused B(1) in the picture).

Maybe the problem is just with coastal guns. Maybe it is extending to other parts of the game, but it is important to notice that here, the problem isn't that the interdiction fire is more effective, but that the counter fire against interdicting coastal guns is infinitely more effective. The interdicting unit is the one being eliminated.

[image]local://upfiles/58482/78C0FA0601C44A6492C83521A623372B.jpg[/image]




secadegas -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (2/12/2019 5:54:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cabido


Guys, just to settle down the problem with coastal guns. I've seen the discussion now is about air interdiction of troops. Maybe the game treats interdiction and bombardment differently in that case, yet the manual says nothing about it. But regarding coastal guns, we can fall into the trap of taking the game as an oracle which messages must be interpreted and justified. Even if I don't know anything about naval warfare, there is clearly a bug with counter fire against coastal guns interdiction.

As you can see in the image attached, they can survive bombardments from a naval vessel for 9 rounds, here. They would be eliminated in one round by the counter fire of the same naval vessel after they try to interdict it, as noted in the first post of the parallel thread (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4591514). Notice that here we can't justify it by saying the guns are dispersed or housed when idle, for the simple fact that in both situation they are actively firing. When interdicting, they fire first and suffer counter fire; when bombarded, they counter fire themselves (see the damage caused B(1) in the picture).

Maybe the problem is just with coastal guns. Maybe it is extending to other parts of the game, but it is important to notice that here, the problem isn't that the interdiction fire is more effective, but that the counter fire against interdicting coastal guns is infinitely more effective. The interdicting unit is the one being eliminated.




I'd add that this bug reported by Cabido is 100% repeatable using any other scenario.






gliz2 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (2/13/2019 7:00:40 AM)

Lobster,

Defending (dug in) infantry is definitely not "dispersed". Quite opposite, they are quite congested. And the casualties from even a high-level bombardment can be devastating. Especially on a green units.

Interdiction was pretty effective against armour as the tanks many times were clise to a static targets. Plus most of interdictions were taking place when one of the sides enjoyed almost complete domination in air.

As to the naval bombardment. Counterfire on a bunker would have similar effect to a normal bombardment. Usually only light bunkers or boxholds were effected. The shelling was more aimed at the troopers anyhow.




Lobster -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (2/13/2019 11:14:37 AM)

Dug in vs walking in the open. Yeah exactly the same. [8|]




gliz2 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (2/13/2019 1:37:48 PM)

Are you playing or just trolling Sir.
Where have I wrote that the dug in is "exactly the same" as walking?

If you have problems with understanding written text I'd suggest to abstain from commenting.

An example of havoc that interdictions could achieve is the Normandy campaign.
An example of devastating effect of bombing of enemy position are battle of Monte Cassino (not the monastry event) or Crimean campaign 1942.




76mm -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 11:06:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: secadegas
I'd add that this bug reported by Cabido is 100% repeatable using any other scenario.

Yeah, I'd like to confirm this. Sure wish this would be fixed...




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 12:25:35 PM)

It is being worked on, it may be fixed. If one of you guys familiar with this can give me a way to test it, I will do so.




76mm -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 1:07:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
If one of you guys familiar with this can give me a way to test it, I will do so.

I think it is pretty easy to replicate...I just set up a coastal battery with 4 122mm guns in a fortified dense urban hex. I sent a destroyer against it. The coastal battery gets off some shots before the destroyer can fire back (due to range), but the first time the destroyer fires after coming within range, the coastal battery evaporates...every time.

I tried a few things:
1) I added a fixed artillery secondary icon...no change;
2) In addition to the fortified hex, I tried to put the coastal battery in a fortified or at least entrenched deployment. Oddly, the default deployment for (static) coastal guns is "Mobile", and the only other choices were ""Local Reserve" and "Tactical Reserve".




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 3:12:36 PM)

Ok but I don't want to spend time setting stuff up. Somebody give me a scenario that is set up for it followed by step by step instructions on how to get what you see as being wrong, or provide a test scenario also with instructions.

{not being a dick ... I can do a lot but I can't do everything!]




Cabido -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 3:24:22 PM)

I have posted a modified scenario here, which can be used for tests on this:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4592104





sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 3:31:03 PM)

Again, I'm not being a dick, but I've been a beta tester for eight years so I might be a little 'to the point'. Give me a scenario and a 'how to' to reproduce what you are seeing. I shouldn't be expected to figure all of this out when you guys already know it. I'm saying that it may be fixed already and I will find out if you tell me how. Otherwise, wait for the next patch and do it yourself.




Cabido -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 3:41:02 PM)

I have given you the scenario and the instruction is there for how to reproduce it. Want me to tell you how to press the mouse button? I'm not being a dick.




Shadrach -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 4:04:34 PM)

It's easy to reproduce using the Malta 42_Altered scenario provided by Cabido. Just move one of the Axis naval units close to the coast.

But I did found that for some reason the game does not trigger interdiction on every try... I tried a new game and suddenly there was no interdiction at all first turn.
When it does trigger, it destroys the coastal guns on first round every time.

But why do the results state the guns first evaporate, and then they defend?

[image]https://i.imgur.com/odlJoUD.png[/image]




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 4:33:06 PM)

M. You gave me a link to a thread, and that thread had a few other links, so it was going to make me read a whole thread and try and figure out what to do. Thanks though!




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 4:40:57 PM)

quote:

It's easy to reproduce using the Malta 42_Altered scenario provided by Cabido.

Ok so I didn't specify - 'Not an Altered Scenario'. I need a standard scenario that shipped with the game.




Cabido -> RE: Coastal Artillery Question (6/29/2019 5:05:57 PM)

I gave you a link to a specific post on the thread. All you need is in the post.

The malta scenario is shipped with the game an you can do the test with the original scenario. Playing it I have noticed this bug in the first turn of the game. I have only stacked up all coastal guns inside the fortified line hexes to make it easier to test and dimension the effect.




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