So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (Full Version)

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Temple -> So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 5:04:09 AM)

OK, this question sounds a bit basic, but looking through the manual, while "proficiency" is mentioned time and again in relationship to all sorts of things, I couldn't find a place where it is actually defined; I'm talking about unit proficiency here. My thinking is this...

Proficiency is a coefficient, ranging from 33% to 100%, that reflects the ability of a unit to carry out what it is trying to do, be that attack, defend, prevent desertion, continuing a combat, etc. Proficiency that is less than 100% will lessen the effectiveness of an action or possibly prevent it occurring, depending on the circumstance.

So, any other interesting definitions of proficiency?




larryfulkerson -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 5:26:10 AM)

I remember a "talk" by Bob Cross when one time a long time ago he went
through the formula that defined the value the variable proficiency gets
and IIRC it had something to do with the national proficiency value for
that nation and something to do with health and supply and I have no
earthly idea what the formula was now of course but it was complicated
and there were several factors that were contingent.




Der Zeitgeist -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 7:44:41 AM)

Yeah, but does anyone really know what proficiency does?
The manual only describes the factors that influence proficiency, not what it actually is.

Basically, with TOAW IV I'm getting the same problem I always had with previous versions, that is, I don't understand core game concepts and don't know where to look for them. We have all these stats, proficiency, readiness, morale, quality, and it's incredibly hard to understand what they mean.




marcdhanna -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 8:01:34 AM)

This question is a perfect example of what is challenging about learning this game... what is proficiency? how important is it? One can read the manual but even so these answers are not so obvious. Have to agree with Zeitgeist on this one.




Cfant -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 8:02:50 AM)

The good thing is - you don't need to know. Simply accept Prof as a mixture of moral, training and material. Professionality. The US Marines will have better Prof then a third world country militia. You only really can influence supply. Keep your units well supplied and look at prof-values to know, what you can expect from your units - and what you cannot expect.

TOAW is - other then Strategic Command for example - a game with very much focus on your sense for your units then any formula.




Lobster -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 8:06:30 AM)

Proficiency is a word and it has a meaning. Degree of skill, ability, and experience. In TOAW it means the same thing as in the real world. The German army had a good deal of all of these qualities. More so than any of the Allies until later in the war. So naturally they were more proficient at waging war. Therefore their proficiency is higher than others. If you have a unit with a proficiency of 50 then they aren't very good. Green is how they might be described. As they wage war they gain experience, skill, ability simply because they are in combat and become better, more proficient, at what they do. If they live long enough they will become as proficient as any unit on the map. If you add more green replacements to the unit it will water down the proficiency because you are adding a lack of experience to the unit making it less proficient. It's a very simple concept. Nations with a high national military heritage or tradition also have a higher proficiency than others.




marcdhanna -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 8:11:54 AM)

And how are we supposed to know that we don't need to know and only supply is important? Why in the world would we ever start there? That's exactly the point, if proficiency is not important, why give us the information in the first place!? And by the way, morale is the mixture of proficiency, supply and readiness, yet I can't find morale as a number on any of the information charts....




Lobster -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 8:13:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marcdhanna

And how are we supposed to know that we don't need to know and only supply is important? Why in the world would we ever start there? That's exactly the point, if proficiency is not important, why give us the information in the first place!? And by the way, morale is the mixture of proficiency, supply and readiness, yet I can't find morale as a number on any of the information charts....


Who said it isn't important? And how can morale be a single number? If my units have a proficiency of 80 because they've been at war for a good amount of time (proficiency), have 100% supply (supply) and are well equipped and rested (readiness) You can bet the farm they are going to have high moral because they have been waging war successfully. On the other hand if I have a unit with a proficiency of 50, 50% supply and a red health indicator they are worn out or green, hungry, low on ammo and tired. Their moral is going to be bad. It's that simple.




marcdhanna -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 8:25:11 AM)

Scroll up, CFant said we don't need to know. Not that I agree ;)

I wrote my response there to CFant in cross-over with yours, Lobster. Yet, even agreeing with you about it, how does knowing that 50 proficiency is bad, help us make decision to attack or not? Your assessment is very interesting but how does it help us make game decisions? That's where we want to go.




marcdhanna -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 8:26:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: marcdhanna

And how are we supposed to know that we don't need to know and only supply is important? Why in the world would we ever start there? That's exactly the point, if proficiency is not important, why give us the information in the first place!? And by the way, morale is the mixture of proficiency, supply and readiness, yet I can't find morale as a number on any of the information charts....


Who said it isn't important? And how can morale be a single number? If my units have a proficiency of 80 because they've been at war for a good amount of time (proficiency), have 100% supply (supply) and are well equipped and rested (readiness) You can bet the farm they are going to have high moral because they have been waging war successfully. On the other hand if I have a unit with a proficiency of 50, 50% supply and a red health indicator they are worn out or green, hungry, low on ammo and tired. Their moral is going to be bad. It's that simple.


The manual refers to morale being a function of those three qualities, that's why I deduced it to be a single number, hardly unreasonable of me.




Cfant -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 8:35:14 AM)

You cannot influence it very much. As a Field Marshall you have to work with the troops you got. If it's '41 and you get Wehrmacht-units, you can plan other things as if you got Red Army recruits [;)] Just keep your units supplied (THIS you can absolutly influence!) and take prof as a sign of the quality of your troops. With time you get a feeling, how prof works out. What prof 90 units can do, where prof 40 units fail [:)]




Der Zeitgeist -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 8:39:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Who said it isn't important? And how can morale be a single number?



For each unit, morale is a value between 10% and 100%, as the manual states:

8.2.4. Unit Morale
This is a weighted average of a unitís Proficiency,
Supply Level, and Readiness. Regardless of actual
Proficiency, Supply Level or Readiness, Morale can
be no lower than 10% and no higher than 100%. This
value is multiplied by the raw equipment Strengths
to calculate the actual effective Strengths of the unit.




Lobster -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 1:55:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Der Zeitgeist


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Who said it isn't important? And how can morale be a single number?



For each unit, morale is a value between 10% and 100%, as the manual states:

8.2.4. Unit Morale
This is a weighted average of a unitís Proficiency,
Supply Level, and Readiness. Regardless of actual
Proficiency, Supply Level or Readiness, Morale can
be no lower than 10% and no higher than 100%. This
value is multiplied by the raw equipment Strengths
to calculate the actual effective Strengths of the unit.


Weighted Average (meaning) Mean in which each item being averaged is multiplied by a number (weight) based on the item's relative importance. The result is summed and the total is divided by the sum of the weights. Weighted averages are used extensively in descriptive statistical analysis such as index numbers. Also called weighted mean.

Okay, that just gave me a headache. [:D]

And therefore is not a single number but is a highly volatile measure. In one turn it is one quantity. In another turn it's another quantity. It can slide up and down drastically because your supply and readiness erode combat round by combat round and by resting a unit recovers to a different level. If your proficiency increased because your unit was involved in combat maybe your maximum moral is something else now. I don't know. I don't need to know the exact moral level of my units combat round by combat round. I can see it by looking at other things readily available to me.

If you really don't have enough numbers to look at maybe a group could petition Ralph to code something that will display a unit's moral combat round by combat round. But looking at proficiency, supply and readiness should give you a good idea if your troops are combat ready or ready to tell you to sod off. [;)]




marcdhanna -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 2:10:15 PM)

Lobster I think you make a valid point, those three values are available for each unit at a glance, no question there.

However, what are the rules of thumb? What's the difference between using your experience to weigh these three ever changing numbers versus having the morale (and also, the modified strength value) computed and provided to the player? It is one number at any instant in time, just as are the other three numbers, albeit changing. But weighted numbers don't vary as much as their component parts might.

I'd rather weigh in on one number, even if it changes every turn. One number to look at that is directly involved in the actual calculation for combat would be of considerable use to us new players.

If I had your experience, I could probably do a decent weigh-up of those three numbers you rely on, but I'm a noob at this game so I'm looking for some concrete and easy to use tips. Cfant's tip is equally useful, just take care of supply, and the other stuff takes care of itself. Maybe, maybe. But it's not as if the supply rules are immediately intuitive at a glance.

The more I get into this game, the more I love it. So I am not complaining, but commenting on some of my learning and understanding process.




Sniper31 -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 3:11:14 PM)

Something else to consider in this discussion is that many of the difficulties being faced by us newer TOAW players are similar to the difficulties of real world commanders everywhere, and throughout history. When a commander orders a given unit into battle, there are so many factors he/she must consider. An efficient commander tries to take as much of the guess work out of the equation as possible,and minimize randomness in battle. However, the best plan never survives first contact, and good commanders know this and plan for that eventuality. The proficiency and morale of real world units are assessed by commanders constantly, and during mission development processes, commanders almost always will pick their most currently proficient unit to be the 'Main Effort' of the operation. Morale is of course factored into this. Then, a commander will order less proficient units into roles that support the 'Main Effort' in some way. Examples of this are feint attacks, blocking positions, tactical reserve status etc. I look at the proficiency and morale of units in TOAW as a tool to decide how I am going to assign my units as described above. That is how many real world commanders operate, and that is how I have been trained to operate. It works in TOAW.




ralphtricky -> RE: So, what exactly *is* Proficiency? (11/23/2017 9:26:58 PM)

The formula for combat strength gives twice as much weight to Proficiency as the other two factors. It also helps determine whether or not your unit divides after a combat. I'm pretty sure it's included in the final numbers on the counters. You should be able to glance at the indicators on the unit panel and get a feel for how your unit is doing.




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