OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (Full Version)

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Footslogger -> OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/21/2017 1:08:33 AM)

Will this Captain be canned too?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/uss-john-s-mccain-collides-with-merchant-vessel/ar-AAqrrXu?li=BBnb7Kz&OCID=AVRES007

Is this happening too often?

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JeffroK -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/21/2017 6:35:25 AM)

Time to can an Admiral or 2.




InfiniteMonkey -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/21/2017 6:54:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Time to can an Admiral or 2.

or wonder if something deeper is going on.




Alpha77 -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/21/2017 8:06:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Time to can an Admiral or 2.

or wonder if something deeper is going on.




Perhaps the navy wants to safe on ship personnel and blaming humans errors for such accidents for more computers / automatic system....
Note there is a push overall to get rid of humans, also with driverless cars etc.




JeffroK -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/21/2017 8:26:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Time to can an Admiral or 2.

or wonder if something deeper is going on.


What, 4 aegis equipped vessels damaged in 1 year...





JamesM -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/21/2017 8:39:04 AM)

How good is the US Navy ship handling training?




MakeeLearn -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/21/2017 11:59:43 AM)

Been hearing bad things about the Navy for years,... looking like there is truth.

[image]local://upfiles/55056/5EAC03357723492D8DD520AB789350EB.jpg[/image]




Apollo11 -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/21/2017 12:17:31 PM)

Hi all,

Unfortunately and apparently one word can describe all of this quite good: "complacency" ... [:(]


BTW, this was official USN statement from the previous collision:

quote:


Poor seamanship and flaws in keeping watch contributed to a collision between a Navy destroyer and a commercial container ship that killed seven sailors, Navy officials said, announcing that the warship captain will be relieved of command and more than a dozen other sailors will be punished.

Adm. William Moran, the vice chief of naval operations, said that the top three leaders aboard the USS Fitzgerald, which was badly damaged in the collision off the coast of Japan, will be removed from duty aboard the ship. They are the commanding officer, Cmdr. Bryce Benson; the executive officer, Cmdr. Sean Babbitt; and Master Chief Petty Officer Brice Baldwin, who as the ship's command master chief is its most senior enlisted sailor.

'The collision was avoidable, and both ships demonstrated poor seamanship,' the Navy's 7th Fleet said in a statement, noting that 'flawed' teamwork among those assigned to keep watch contributed to the collision.




wdolson -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/21/2017 7:30:26 PM)

I posted in the other DD collision thread before seeing this. This is the 4th incident with ships based at Yosuka this year. Lesser known incidents include a cruiser running around and another hitting a fishing vessel. What's up with Yosuka?

Bill




Zorch -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/21/2017 8:29:14 PM)

They need a 'Student Driver' sign.




Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 2:13:46 AM)

US Navy orders 'operational pause' after collision

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41002749

they didn't really explain what operational pause means, I can guess it is an order to stop all non critical patrols?




zuluhour -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 1:45:39 PM)

leaders (yes) crews (doubtful) systems (yes yes) I can't stop thinking there is something afoot in the systems area whether electronics related or protocols, I lean on electronics.




Xargun -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 1:48:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I posted in the other DD collision thread before seeing this. This is the 4th incident with ships based at Yosuka this year. Lesser known incidents include a cruiser running around and another hitting a fishing vessel. What's up with Yosuka?

Bill


I saw that the other day reading an article. I find it very suspicious that all 4 recent accidents have been from ships stationed out of Japan. Someone needs to go there and shake things up.




BBfanboy -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 2:11:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

leaders (yes) crews (doubtful) systems (yes yes) I can't stop thinking there is something afoot in the systems area whether electronics related or protocols, I lean on electronics.

News late last night said the ship lost all power just before the collision, and the backup systems also failed. I wonder if the North Koreans have found a way to hack the military telecom systems and get into the ship's computerized command systems. And if the crew had the training and moxie to put up "unnavigable" signals, I wonder if merchant ship sailors had the training and moxie to understand them.

EDIT: PS - if anyone did find a way to hack systems via telecom, the Navy would never admit it as it would give too much feedback to the perpetrators. So they will have to make up something. All this is just speculation of course, but the Admiral interviewed on CNN did say automation would be looked at as a contributing factor. Several civilian air accident investigations have found that over-reliance on automation was a big factor in the chain of events leading to the disaster. The humans have to know when to stop trusting the automation and switch to manual.




Lecivius -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 2:25:27 PM)

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me"

I don't want to get my tin foil hat on. I sure would like to see the investigation review notes .




Xargun -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 5:53:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

EDIT: PS - if anyone did find a way to hack systems via telecom, the Navy would never admit it as it would give too much feedback to the perpetrators. So they will have to make up something. All this is just speculation of course, but the Admiral interviewed on CNN did say automation would be looked at as a contributing factor. Several civilian air accident investigations have found that over-reliance on automation was a big factor in the chain of events leading to the disaster. The humans have to know when to stop trusting the automation and switch to manual.


I wouldn't just say North Korea - China and Russia would do it too. I believe the McCain did just do some South China Sea runs that the Chinese did not like one bit.




Orm -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 8:06:43 PM)

If it was outside interference then why wasn't the second ship alerted to this and on increased watch?




Lecivius -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 8:13:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

If it was outside interference then why wasn't the second ship alerted to this and on increased watch?


Nothing proven. Heck, this is all speculation, it could just be a more laid back Navy that the one I remember...


I still would love to read the un-edited investigation files [:'(]




scout1 -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 8:28:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

If it was outside interference then why wasn't the second ship alerted to this and on increased watch?


Nothing proven. Heck, this is all speculation, it could just be a more laid back Navy that the one I remember...


I still would love to read the un-edited investigation files [:'(]


Perhaps to reliant on their new electronic gizmo's with whatever reliability issues come with them vs traditional eyes on the target




scout1 -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 8:29:57 PM)

Heck, I just saw an article within the last 6 months about the Academy re-instating the Celestial Navigation class for the junior year ..... Really, why would they have stopped it ?




Zorch -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 9:00:11 PM)

Why its not surprising that ship collisions still happen...

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170822-why-its-not-surprising-that-ship-collisions-still-happen




BBfanboy -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 9:18:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Why its not surprising that ship collisions still happen...

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170822-why-its-not-surprising-that-ship-collisions-still-happen

Good article - it mentions many of the things we have been discussing.

One other point about the reliance on automation and instruments - in the air accident docs I have watched failure of the instrumentation or automation tends to focus crew attention on the failed device with no one looking at what else is going on in the real world. Even real world distractions can cause accidents - one Canadian Search and Rescue plane was lost when the crew spotted wreckage of a downed aircraft and did a slow circle to see if there were any survivors present. Everyone was looking at the wreckage and no one noticed the airspeed falling and the plane stalled at low altitude. (There was no "stick shaker" stall warning in the old aircraft being used). So if the news report about loss of power on the JSMcCain is correct, there is a chance the crew were fixed on repairing that problem and not warning other ships of their situation.




rustysi -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/22/2017 11:00:39 PM)

quote:

One other point about the reliance on automation and instruments - in the air accident docs I have watched failure of the instrumentation or automation tends to focus crew attention on the failed device with no one looking at what else is going on in the real world. Even real world distractions can cause accidents - one Canadian Search and Rescue plane was lost when the crew spotted wreckage of a downed aircraft and did a slow circle to see if there were any survivors present. Everyone was looking at the wreckage and no one noticed the airspeed falling and the plane stalled at low altitude. (There was no "stick shaker" stall warning in the old aircraft being used). So if the news report about loss of power on the JSMcCain is correct, there is a chance the crew were fixed on repairing that problem and not warning other ships of their situation.


Exact reason an Air France crashed in the Atlantic some years back. An anomaly of sorts (long story) caused all three pito(sp?) tubes to clog. Loss of inputs from these devices disengaged the auto-pilot. Instead of then flying the plane manually the crew was focused on why the auto-pilot 'failed'. Result, crash, no survivors.




Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/23/2017 11:31:06 AM)

As expected, commander of Seventh Fleet is sacked

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41020729




Apollo11 -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/23/2017 11:38:13 AM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Exact reason an Air France crashed in the Atlantic some years back. An anomaly of sorts (long story) caused all three pito(sp?) tubes to clog. Loss of inputs from these devices disengaged the auto-pilot. Instead of then flying the plane manually the crew was focused on why the auto-pilot 'failed'. Result, crash, no survivors.


This is a bit of oversimplification... [;)]

The AF447 crashed because 3 pilots failed to realize that they were in stall (and kept pulling up the flight stick)... they also didn't realize that after AutoPilot disengaged and 3 pitot tubes clogged that they exited the "Normal Law" of FlyByWire and entered the "Alternate Law" (where there are no protections and all commands entered via flight stick are obeyed by FlyByWire)... it was night... it was sudden... it was extremely disorientating... [:(]


Leo "Apollo11"




rustysi -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/23/2017 11:05:28 PM)

quote:

This is a bit of oversimplification...


I beg to differ, no oversimplification. They simply neglected to fly the A/C. Heck, even I know, if in doubt (and no other indications of fault) 85% thrust, 5 degree up elevator will keep an A/C that's in a correct attitude flying straight and level 'til it runs out of fuel.

quote:

The AF447 crashed because 3 pilots failed to realize that they were in stall (and kept pulling up the flight stick)...


Again, black box indicated they were in a low level descent. Which continued 'til they realized it too late. No one was apparently checking other instruments, like the horizon indicator.





rustysi -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/23/2017 11:06:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

As expected, commander of Seventh Fleet is sacked

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41020729


Happened 'on his watch'.




joey -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/24/2017 1:48:48 PM)

I can remember a time spell when I was in the Navy were we had a similar run of ship collisions. There were the reported and the unreported collisions. But the happened all over the world. These all seem to be happening in the same general location under the same general command.
That in and of itself is interesting. I doubt this particular admiral is any worst or any better than any other admiral. Makes one think....




Lecivius -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/24/2017 2:38:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

These all seem to be happening in the same general location under the same general command.


I noticed that. 4 career ending incidents in the last 6 months. Curious...




wdolson -> RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? (8/25/2017 5:38:40 AM)


My SO said she saw an article yesterday that there is evidence somebody has hacked GPS satellites. If that's the case, the ships might be getting fooled into thinking they are in the wrong place. On a car forum I saw someone complaining that the GPS in his car was intermittently telling him he was several blocks away from where he actually was.

If someone has managed to hack GPS, they might only be testing it out from time to time to see how good their hack is. A consistent GPS error would become obvious pretty quickly.

Bill




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