Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (Full Version)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/2/2017 5:44:49 PM)




"He who defends everything, defends nothing"
Frederich the Great


Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."
- Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC




The Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (hex 73/30)


This is my Memoir of my strat, based on Frederich the Great qoute and Robert Barrow, which was used in 11 games playing the Soviet with 2 more games still in progress for a total of 13 games. Also my extensive knowledge of the German Army has benefited me greatly when playing the Soviet side :) Once my current 2 games get to a comfortable turn I will start posting pictures & my notes. The pictures may or may not be from the current game but will show overall strat not current game. Not including the current two games neither Leningrad nor Moscow have fallen in the 11 games I played in the last year and half as Soviet, BUT there is always the first time for that to happen and shall see in these two current ongoing games if either one or both of these players can capture one or the other or both Moscow and Leningrad :)





Telemecus -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/2/2017 6:31:33 PM)

Looks like a must read!




EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/2/2017 6:35:36 PM)

Looking forward to learn and to soak up your notes.
I suppose there will be a 2=1 show as well :)




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/2/2017 7:06:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Looking forward to learn and to soak up your notes.
I suppose there will be a 2=1 show as well :)


I just hope I can present something new that all can learn from. If that happens then I have done my job :) The current 2 games in progress does have the +1 Soviet Attack bonus. Of the other games already completed there were 3 others that had the +1 Soviet attack bonus in them. I soon decided that the +1 Soviet attack in the right hands is OP (Overpowered).




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/2/2017 7:19:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Looking forward to learn and to soak up your notes.
I suppose there will be a 2=1 show as well :)


I just hope I can present something new that all can learn from. If that happens then I have done my job :) The current 2 games in progress does have the +1 Soviet Attack bonus. Of the other games already completed there were 3 others that had the +1 Soviet attack bonus in them. I soon decided that the +1 Soviet attack in the right hands is OP (Overpowered).


Just a side note that none of my Strategy relies on the Soviet +1 attack. I really prefer the none Soviet +1 since it makes me pull more of my hair out coming up with avenues of approach that the Germans can take and putting the right amount of strength in key hexes :) Many things that I do goes against conventional wisdom posted in prior AAR's. Such as defending hardcore around Pskov where many just put up a token defense falling back on Leningrad.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/2/2017 7:35:30 PM)

Here is some "Eye Candy" for a few days what I was referencing in my prior post to hold everyone over. Please note that Pskov is the 76 defense factor in the picture & this is turn 5. (NOTE: I still hold the one HEX west of Pskov too where the defense begins) This is from last year and have changed up a few things in this picture, it is a learning experience.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/5598775215634998B7D94EB954A81A6C.jpg[/image]




Stelteck -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/2/2017 7:41:16 PM)

Looks like a very interesting AAR soon !!! Thanks.

Good luck both of you and have fun !!!

I'am already curious how you can have 22 offensive CV with a pile of 3 soviet divisions in 1941.

Is this alternate CV calculation ? it could be the answer.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/2/2017 7:48:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Looks like a very interesting AAR soon !!! Thanks.

Good luck both of you and have fun !!!

I'am already curious how you can have 22 offensive CV with a pile of 3 soviet divisions in 1941.

Is this alternate CV calculation ? it could be the answer.



This is "NOT" an alternate CV calculation :) This is your Standard Bitter End Campaign or Sudden Death Campaign. By the way there is a way to get high CV values and I will show how, some probably already know how, it is easy :)




EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/2/2017 8:09:40 PM)

There are some very nice Panzer/Mot Divisions in the South. With some clever managed refit to focus all tanks into say 6-8 elite divisions, you can create 7-9CV monsters. The only downside of them is that they take enormous tank losses in combat, maybe thats the reason why HLYA stacked them with infantry, to soak up some of the losses. Curious whether there are some micromanagement tips to get many of those guys.




Stelteck -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/2/2017 8:18:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Looks like a very interesting AAR soon !!! Thanks.

Good luck both of you and have fun !!!

I'am already curious how you can have 22 offensive CV with a pile of 3 soviet divisions in 1941.

Is this alternate CV calculation ? it could be the answer.



This is "NOT" an alternate CV calculation :) This is your Standard Bitter End Campaign or Sudden Death Campaign. By the way there is a way to get high CV values and I will show how, some probably already know how, it is easy :)


Hoooo.
I'am really, really curious and very eager to learn this.
The best units i saw for now in early 1941 was some tank divisions of northern front with a CV of 7. They are fixed at start. And some fully trained siberian rifle divisions with morale 55 of CV 4/5, but they began to appear in september.





M60A3TTS -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/2/2017 11:07:49 PM)

I can get close in 4.

Zhukov and three 50+ morale divisions can get you there. I'd like to see your opponents Lvov pocket to see what divisions were not pocketed.


What are people using these days for image uploads?

Photobucket is terrible now and I need to get off there ASAP.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/3/2017 12:19:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I can get close in 4.

Zhukov and three 50+ morale divisions can get you there. I'd like to see your opponents Lvov pocket to see what divisions were not pocketed.


What are people using these days for image uploads?

Photobucket is terrible now and I need to get off there ASAP.


Most of the Lvov pockets were of decent quality, some better than others. I didnt have a single game where a Lvov pocket wasn't made. But to be honest you can have the ultimate Lvov pocket in the south and it doesn't matter to me. I can make this work even if that happened too.




glvaca -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/3/2017 6:38:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I can get close in 4.

Zhukov and three 50+ morale divisions can get you there. I'd like to see your opponents Lvov pocket to see what divisions were not pocketed.


What are people using these days for image uploads?

Photobucket is terrible now and I need to get off there ASAP.


Try dropbox.




chaos45 -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/3/2017 2:36:42 PM)

unfortunately a good game in WiTE really depends on how good the German player is at managing logistics and first 5-7 turns of the game.

This is also where the game really breaks down as a good German player can completely overwhelming abuse the issues with unlimited logistics and esp the lack of Soviets ability to dig in.

Soviet play IMO doesnt matter much in the early game until they fix the support unit issues if the German player understands the game well. As the commander and support unit assignments were one of the few things the Soviet player could do in the early game to try and dictate what/where the Germans could go.

Again tho if the German player isnt top notch it doesnt matter as its all how they manage units/logistics in about the first 5-7 turns of the entire game.




Crackaces -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/3/2017 2:41:44 PM)

I think the logistics is getting better in this last release. Not perfect and WITE 2.0 will be even more restrictive but in the terms of this match up I am finding that the Germans cannot drop as much fuel and supplies, and thus have to regroup for a precious turn that makes this Psov defense thing interesting ...




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/3/2017 3:23:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

unfortunately a good game in WiTE really depends on how good the German player is at managing logistics and first 5-7 turns of the game.

This is also where the game really breaks down as a good German player can completely overwhelming abuse the issues with unlimited logistics and esp the lack of Soviets ability to dig in.

Soviet play IMO doesnt matter much in the early game until they fix the support unit issues if the German player understands the game well. As the commander and support unit assignments were one of the few things the Soviet player could do in the early game to try and dictate what/where the Germans could go.

Again tho if the German player isnt top notch it doesnt matter as its all how they manage units/logistics in about the first 5-7 turns of the entire game.


Define your "unlimited logistics" for me please. I believe I understand where you are coming from but want to make sure here.

The "digging in" part of the game has been there for awhile with the sappers. I believe it goes back to 1.85ish patch or something like that that was said by someone smarter than me on the issue. I'm not using this sapper digging in as a crutch since there is always another way to do something and that is what I have done in these games over the last year and half.

Supply to Pskov area never has been an issue for Germans in any game. Thus what the Soviets do in this area "does" matter. I hope to show that by the Soviets putting up a stiff defense around Pskov that the delay allows the saving of Leningrad. I also hope to show that the sapper not helping dig in is not the end all of a viable Soviet Defense. (Please don't forget that recently added rule that units in reserve/refit don't help digging in as much too, which is as it should be. Makes this even more fun!)

In these games as a Soviet I have used this strategy against a few of the best German players on the forums. Its like living on a knife edge but it really is fun :) (I have one hair left on my head after those games, Rogaine is helping to bring some of them back. BUT my alcohol addiction got worse during those games though.)




chaos45 -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/3/2017 4:14:16 PM)

unlimited logistics--supply of the entire panzer ball off one rail head. which allows any soviet position up until 1943 to be crushed by the Germans if they want.

The sapper issue isnt that old....maybe 6 months+ old.....so only the newest forums games have felt the effect of it--considering most games only post 2-3 turns a week...... All the old completed matched on the forums were played with Sappers allowing the dig-in...and its not just sappers this also prevent the engineer BDEs from assisting...and since digging in is the soviets best CV in the early game this is a big handicap. Yes you can spend those AP/armaments on other toys but if a soviet players starting a game now is playing by the rules and wastes effort on units that arent working its helping to strongly slant the game towards the Germans.

As per above...you can see good German players doing absolutely crushingly in more recent games that have started after the Sapper/engineers stopped being allowed to assist in soviet defense.





HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/3/2017 5:09:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

unlimited logistics--supply of the entire panzer ball off one rail head. which allows any soviet position up until 1943 to be crushed by the Germans if they want.

The sapper issue isnt that old....maybe 6 months+ old.....so only the newest forums games have felt the effect of it--considering most games only post 2-3 turns a week...... All the old completed matched on the forums were played with Sappers allowing the dig-in...and its not just sappers this also prevent the engineer BDEs from assisting...and since digging in is the soviets best CV in the early game this is a big handicap. Yes you can spend those AP/armaments on other toys but if a soviet players starting a game now is playing by the rules and wastes effort on units that arent working its helping to strongly slant the game towards the Germans.

As per above...you can see good German players doing absolutely crushingly in more recent games that have started after the Sapper/engineers stopped being allowed to assist in soviet defense.




Ok, that is what I thought you meant on the "unlimited logistics", meaning more than the 2 PZ corps normally associated for that front, correct?





M60A3TTS -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/13/2017 2:03:48 AM)

What's the latest?




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/13/2017 2:46:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

What's the latest?


It is going to be a little bit for the full story :( Sorry. I had a few people send me tells for games and have taken on yet another that just started. Total of 4 at the moment. The other games have progressed fine. But you are right I can't leave everyone hanging forever. Here is some more eye candy. This game is against a PZ baller with great logistics from last year. Thought I throw this picture out there.

Every single German PZ unit & mobile unit went for Moscow except for 8 left in the south. Here is the Turn 17 picture, more PZs on the southern edge but only posting this picture. enjoy. (Moscow was held btw)

This opponent I played last year and have changed up a great deal of my strategy now :) Learned a great deal from this game as Soviet. (note Pskov on the mini map ;-P )

[image]local://upfiles/53556/8F64267D758F4F468978517319A6FB46.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/13/2017 2:54:22 AM)

I hung on by a thread here after he blew away my big defense hexes south of Moscow. There was no +1 Soviet attack




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/29/2017 2:46:54 AM)

Without further ado I present the first turns setup map for the begining Leningrad defense that is imperative to do for this defense to be effective.

But first a few disclaimers.

1. Any defense can be broken when known in advance. As such use this strat at your own pearl in the future.
2. You will need to do a "ton" of clicks & searches for specific units for key places. Be prepared for repetitive brain numbing exercise in clicking, searching, assigning, and other misc nonesense
3. The Strategic synopsis will not be given up front but rather later after all my games pass turn 13-15 for sake of not giving too much information out on key hold & retreat points.
4. I am by all means no expert in this game. I learn by trial and error and sticking a wet finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing ;-) I first and foremost thank all my opponents in the games I have played. Without their contributions none of this would have been possible. I won't name them unless they want to be named or they have written their own AAR in which case I don't mind saying their name. Otherwise I won't give out their names.

Here is the Map for the "1st turn" only for the beginning defense of Leningrad. I will go over each number specifically with its own page. Please note that the numbered hexes are a must to be populated with specific unit types. Other hexes on this map I do populate with units based on what is avail and is not annotated on this map. I will mention those after going over each of the respective numbers.

The first consideration is that of Air. Air will be concentrated in force in the North. You can do the easy way out by sending everything to reserve and then place the air units on the Map the 2nd turn. If you are like me I painfully select units on the map and Air transfer them to my air bases for the north until I run out of good candidates then transfer the rest to reserve. Please note that you must do one or the other of these two items before moving any unit on the map. My normal makeup for a front is 10 air bases, 6 fighter IAD/PVO and 4 bombers bases. All air bases that are not an IAD/PVO/DBD BDBD I disband along with respective Corps Air HQ's over the first few turns AP permitting along with non front Air Army HQ. Please note that the Air HQ's of Urals, Volga, Moscow etc transfer without a cost in AP's to different fronts/Stavka :) I use these HQ's for my VVS for the 3 areas on the map North Center South which begin with 3 VVS per front. Probably not the most optimum but this is what I do. At a minimum you will have 12 Fighter bases and 8 bombers bases guarding the road to Leningrad. (again I disband all the funky named BS that the Soviets have for manpower. You will have 3 fronts worth of Air only for the first 9 turns. Turn 8 start building an IAD AB every turn and Shap AB when needed to fill out a front. Turn 8 you will also build 7 fighters every turn & 1 Tact bomber (this switches later in the year by the way). The Soviets gain Victory through the Air. In this case Quantity has a Quality all its own. These units will be needed to rotate out fighters every turn by Fatiguing Germans and keeping yours fresh. I will go later in detail if needed on this.

2nd consideration is that of AP expenditure. ALL AP points on the first turn is used to get the 27th Army setup correctly with correct HQ load of Units & a great leader. Depending on what I see I on the map I will normally put Zhukov in this HQ since it is imperative to have the best leader here. (I have had many battles with Zhukov and Model in them) If I see a weak effort towards Pskov I either leave the current commander or give one with good Morale/battle rating. If AP points are left over then a good Air leader for the Northwest Air HQ. You must change this out on the 2nd turn if you don't get this changed on the 1st turn. But all AP is spent to normalize the 27th Army which is guarding hex numbers 1, 4, 7, and 9 on the map. (****note that there are a few things that I will use AP on on the first turn. In example an Armor or Mot unit that can't get away encirclement and I can disband it. Then I will disband that armor unit to save the trucks. I don't care about the free unit return since I pretty much disband all the armor reinforcements you start getting on turn 12 to save on trucks for the air war. I save the tank divisions on the map that convert over to brigades. This way I don't have to wait for them to train and have two full armies ready to go full of tanks (which you really don't need until 42 imho)

[image]local://upfiles/53556/61B9F57636F04AFCA549E7D89B9B428A.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/29/2017 4:01:43 AM)

Hex number "1"

This is the most important hex on the map for me for this defense. This hex is where you need 3 division with the following;

1. Construction value over 20+
2. Morale value over 45+
3. Rifle squads Exp value over 45
****Note try to pull units with already full TOE's or units in high 90's******

Please try and choose units with a 4 attack value if at all possible and get these units from anywhere you can. I have yet had a game I couldn't put 3 great units in this hex. On turn 2 you will have a level 1 fort and turn 3 a Level 2 fort in this hex. If you don't..... then you did something wrong ;-}

[image]local://upfiles/53556/6084C6447B72468A961989312412820F.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/29/2017 4:05:35 AM)

Here is an example of 1 of the 3 Divisions I put in hex 1 in one of my games

[image]local://upfiles/53556/A36DD34A64494691B3D2F87252D8045D.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/29/2017 4:01:13 PM)

More to come, just working on my turns on a few games.




mktours -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/29/2017 11:35:20 PM)

Hi, Hardluckyetagain. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and strategy. I have some different ideas with you but I do agree and appreciate some other ideas of you.
I am interested in playing 2 campaigns against you, one as soviet and one as Axis. We could start the two campaign at the same time, same version, same house rules, so it would be fair to both sides. If you are interested, we could discuss it further.




chaos45 -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/29/2017 11:55:25 PM)

man you got a lucky roll on that division, I have never seen a 4 strength on map in the rear area like that.

Every game I start up they almost all seem to be in the south and I have to rail them north if I want any decent divisions aside from tank/mech.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 12:16:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

man you got a lucky roll on that division, I have never seen a 4 strength on map in the rear area like that.

Every game I start up they almost all seem to be in the south and I have to rail them north if I want any decent divisions aside from tank/mech.


I agree on that division, got real lucky. Most of the time I barely have 2 4 str units for that hex since I want Strength and digging strength.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 12:42:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

Hi, Hardluckyetagain. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and strategy. I have some different ideas with you but I do agree and appreciate some other ideas of you.
I am interested in playing 2 campaigns against you, one as soviet and one as Axis. We could start the two campaign at the same time, same version, same house rules, so it would be fair to both sides. If you are interested, we could discuss it further.


Mktours! I have to admit I have always followed your writings the most of anyone on this forum. Heck, I think a game between you and I would be fun as heck. I would love to play but I have 5 current games going and there is no way I can take on any more. My Soviet turns are averaging almost a full 6-8 hours on turns 4-10 in my games. My eyes are bleeding at the end of the day after doing as many games as I can to get them back to my opponents :( When we do play I want to just have our two games going to concentrate fully on them. I know the mettle of your resolve and I do the same thing. Thank you for the offer but I have to decline until I have a manageable game load.




mktours -> RE: Defense of the Soviet Union begins ONE hex west of Pskov (7/30/2017 1:19:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

Hi, Hardluckyetagain. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and strategy. I have some different ideas with you but I do agree and appreciate some other ideas of you.
I am interested in playing 2 campaigns against you, one as soviet and one as Axis. We could start the two campaign at the same time, same version, same house rules, so it would be fair to both sides. If you are interested, we could discuss it further.


Mktours! I have to admit I have always followed your writings the most of anyone on this forum. Heck, I think a game between you and I would be fun as heck. I would love to play but I have 5 current games going and there is no way I can take on any more. My Soviet turns are averaging almost a full 6-8 hours on turns 4-10 in my games. My eyes are bleeding at the end of the day after doing as many games as I can to get them back to my opponents :( When we do play I want to just have our two games going to concentrate fully on them. I know the mettle of your resolve and I do the same thing. Thank you for the offer but I have to decline until I have a manageable game load.

Thanks for the reply!
You could take your time in your games. I have genuine interest in playing against you because I want to check out some different thoughts between us, and the best way to check them out is in playing the game. That said, I am not ready to play as well, I am not quite buying the new Mods of Movael, in deed, my knowledge of the game stay at 1.08.04, and I didn't study the new rules post 1.08.04. But that doesn't matter if I am to play against you, I could study them. My judgement remains that the Mods are not balance and they are unstable, but since we play two sides at the same time, that doesn't matter.
So, if you are interested in playing the two games between us, we could discuss it later when you are ready to play, and if you are to insist on the new version post 1.08.04, I would need to take some time to study and digest the new rules.
Kind regards!




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