Morale and Land Combat Units (Full Version)

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Lowpe -> Morale and Land Combat Units (4/6/2017 9:54:03 PM)

I think everyone has seen poor morale effects on land combat units in combat. The lower the morale the more likely they surrender, rather than retreat. Poor morale also impacts the adjusted assault value.

Fair Enough.

But how about these:

Does poor morale impact engineers ability ability to build?

Does poor morale impact a HQ ability to pass a check?

Does poor morale impact Aviation Support ability to repair/service planes?

Does poor morale impact a units ability to train experience? Gain prep? Take reinforcements?

Does poor morale impact AA gunners firing at planes? CD guns firing? The effectiveness of radar?

Many thanks for any insights!





BBfanboy -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/6/2017 10:25:40 PM)

Engineers - yup! I had some engineers with morale in the low teens and no building progress was recorded. I let them rest until the morale was above thirty and tried them, they made some slow progress. Rested them some more - morale at 50, decent progress. I also checked the disruption/disablement at each of these times and they were comparable at each of the times I checked - meaning they were not responsible for the differences in progress on construction.

Air Support - yup! I did not realize the Aden Base Force could suffer from fatigue and left a lot of arriving British air units there to train. A couple of months later I noticed that the first few air units in the stack had a full complement of aircraft in operation but as you went down the stack the number of unserviceable aircraft went up. Some units had no serviceable aircraft. So I looked at the base force and found that the troops were fatigued in the high 90s and morale was, of course, in the toilet. So I rested it and morale came back faster than fatigue decrease. I put the unit back on duty when morale was over 30 (IIRC fatigue was still around 85) and some aircraft got repaired. More rest, morale over 50, and aircraft repair again improved a lot. Fatigue was around 65.
I solved the problem by shipping out most of the aircraft to train in India.

Don't know for sure about the rest, but if morale affects troops ability to fight, it should also affect other activities.




witpqs -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/6/2017 10:35:11 PM)

I think it was Michael who made changes for morale (and probably other transient stats) to affect things like building functions. Just try to build or repair a base after a nasty naval bombardment comes in - the support units take forever to recover (compared to combat units) and get little done in the meantime.




Insano -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/6/2017 11:53:32 PM)

Similar to BB I have also observed engineers working more slowly with lower morale.

Also recovering disabled devices slower.

Also shedding disruption slower as witpqs alluded to.

I'm not sure on this one - I think lower morale units move slower as well. This could just be a side effect of them accumulating and retaining fatigue faster than high morale units so indirect relation there.




GetAssista -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/7/2017 7:44:05 AM)

Did some quick testing with morale 30 vs 99 for a bunch of units for your non-combat questions. Combat is a lot harder to test

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Does poor morale impact engineers ability ability to build?
No, it does not
Does poor morale impact a HQ ability to pass a check?

Does poor morale impact Aviation Support ability to repair/service planes?
No, it does not
Does poor morale impact a units ability to train experience? Gain prep? Take reinforcements?
No, it does not for xp train. I did not get conclusive results for prep for my 5-turn sets, 99 moral seemed to get slightly more bonus points (additional to +1 guaranteed each turn) compared to 30, and I c.b.a. to run a lot of turns to get statistically significant results for such insignificant a matter
Does poor morale impact AA gunners firing at planes? CD guns firing? The effectiveness of radar?


Also, No, it does not for movement speed and fatigue/disruption recovery




Lokasenna -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/7/2017 12:55:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Did some quick testing with morale 30 vs 99 for a bunch of units for your non-combat questions. Combat is a lot harder to test

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Does poor morale impact engineers ability ability to build?
No, it does not
Does poor morale impact a HQ ability to pass a check?

Does poor morale impact Aviation Support ability to repair/service planes?
No, it does not
Does poor morale impact a units ability to train experience? Gain prep? Take reinforcements?
No, it does not for xp train. I did not get conclusive results for prep for my 5-turn sets, 99 moral seemed to get slightly more bonus points (additional to +1 guaranteed each turn) compared to 30, and I c.b.a. to run a lot of turns to get statistically significant results for such insignificant a matter
Does poor morale impact AA gunners firing at planes? CD guns firing? The effectiveness of radar?


Also, No, it does not for movement speed and fatigue/disruption recovery


Actually...

There is definitely a morale component to movement, but it is minor. There is a potential penalty to the distance moved in a turn if a unit fails a morale check.




GetAssista -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/7/2017 2:08:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Actually...

There is definitely a morale component to movement, but it is minor. There is a potential penalty to the distance moved in a turn if a unit fails a morale check.

My tests were brief in this regard: two dozens of assorted LCUs marched down hard road for one turn with morale 30. All of them except armor made 30 miles, which is the maximum. I did not see LCUs making less, so whatever this check it might fire up quite rarely

Edit: redid some tests for different terrains and presense/absence of roads. Still zero effect of morale on how many miles were covered




Lowpe -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/7/2017 2:13:43 PM)

Conflicting results....hm.

I think I will pay much closer attention to this, especially in Malaria zones.




Lokasenna -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/7/2017 2:18:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Actually...

There is definitely a morale component to movement, but it is minor. There is a potential penalty to the distance moved in a turn if a unit fails a morale check.

My tests were brief in this regard: two dozens of assorted LCUs marched down hard road for one turn with morale 30. All of them except armor made 30 miles, which is the maximum. I did not see LCUs making less, so whatever this check it might fire up quite rarely


I've noticed variance in movement rates in off-road situations. Setting multiple infantry units to move from one rough hex to another and they could end up as many as 4-5 miles apart. I wasn't watching closely enough to know what the morale situation was, but I know that movement is not guaranteed to be the maximum amount.




HansBolter -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/7/2017 2:21:28 PM)

This would be very hard to gauge and test because fatigue is also having an impact.

When I see my LCUs making less than the prescribed distance over any given terrain I usually attribute it to fatigue and sure enough I can find a relatively high fatigue in any unit like this that I check.

Never thought to take a close look at the morale levels.




GetAssista -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/7/2017 2:24:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I've noticed variance in movement rates in off-road situations. Setting multiple infantry units to move from one rough hex to another and they could end up as many as 4-5 miles apart. I wasn't watching closely enough to know what the morale situation was, but I know that movement is not guaranteed to be the maximum amount.

I'm certain it is other factors not morale. I redid some tests for different terrains and presense/absence of roads. Still zero effect of morale on how many miles were covered




Lokasenna -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/7/2017 7:34:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I've noticed variance in movement rates in off-road situations. Setting multiple infantry units to move from one rough hex to another and they could end up as many as 4-5 miles apart. I wasn't watching closely enough to know what the morale situation was, but I know that movement is not guaranteed to be the maximum amount.

I'm certain it is other factors not morale. I redid some tests for different terrains and presense/absence of roads. Still zero effect of morale on how many miles were covered


It couldn't have been anything but morale. No combat (for a very long time, so no high fatigue), same unit type, same hex, same orders ("order all to march").

In addition, we have this that Alfred posted almost a decade ago, so admittedly it might be legacy code.
http://www.matrixgames.com/Forums/tm.asp?m=1801492


Fatigue can also be a factor.




rustysi -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/7/2017 9:52:59 PM)

quote:

When I see my LCUs making less than the prescribed distance over any given terrain I usually attribute it to fatigue and sure enough I can find a relatively high fatigue in any unit like this that I check.


This has been my experience as well.




BBfanboy -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/7/2017 11:45:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Did some quick testing with morale 30 vs 99 for a bunch of units for your non-combat questions. Combat is a lot harder to test

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Does poor morale impact engineers ability ability to build?
No, it does not
Does poor morale impact a HQ ability to pass a check?

Does poor morale impact Aviation Support ability to repair/service planes?
No, it does not
Does poor morale impact a units ability to train experience? Gain prep? Take reinforcements?
No, it does not for xp train. I did not get conclusive results for prep for my 5-turn sets, 99 moral seemed to get slightly more bonus points (additional to +1 guaranteed each turn) compared to 30, and I c.b.a. to run a lot of turns to get statistically significant results for such insignificant a matter
Does poor morale impact AA gunners firing at planes? CD guns firing? The effectiveness of radar?


Also, No, it does not for movement speed and fatigue/disruption recovery

30 is a bit of a threshold from what I have seen. Try it with morale set at 9 or 10. Also, you say you got positive results but do not quantify it. From what I have seen 30 morale allows some functionality but not as much as morale over 50 and less than morale over 80. Is it possible for your test to have more data points and to record the actual amount of progress achieved at each?




witpqs -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/8/2017 12:05:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Did some quick testing with morale 30 vs 99 for a bunch of units for your non-combat questions. Combat is a lot harder to test

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Does poor morale impact engineers ability ability to build?
No, it does not
Does poor morale impact a HQ ability to pass a check?

Does poor morale impact Aviation Support ability to repair/service planes?
No, it does not
Does poor morale impact a units ability to train experience? Gain prep? Take reinforcements?
No, it does not for xp train. I did not get conclusive results for prep for my 5-turn sets, 99 moral seemed to get slightly more bonus points (additional to +1 guaranteed each turn) compared to 30, and I c.b.a. to run a lot of turns to get statistically significant results for such insignificant a matter
Does poor morale impact AA gunners firing at planes? CD guns firing? The effectiveness of radar?


Also, No, it does not for movement speed and fatigue/disruption recovery

I do not agree with your answers, as already mentioned in my own post.




GetAssista -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/8/2017 9:00:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
30 is a bit of a threshold from what I have seen. Try it with morale set at 9 or 10. Also, you say you got positive results but do not quantify it. From what I have seen 30 morale allows some functionality but not as much as morale over 50 and less than morale over 80. Is it possible for your test to have more data points and to record the actual amount of progress achieved at each?

20 LCUs with 350 engineers working on forts 2 and port 4(6). Changed morale in the editor to either 99/30/5 for all and run several turns. Skipped 1st turn as it occured to me it might have some checks omitted like with airgroups. Yet, building proceeded almost identically for all morales. There were some +-1% discrepancies due to probably weather, but nothing regular. Morale 5 was often able to achieve maximum building speed (same as morale 99). This is enough quantification for me to close the case. In other hex, marching speed remained exactly the same for LCUs with different morale.

Also there was a byproduct of the testing, and boy will this rattle some feathers [:D]
I did not see any effect of fatigue/disruption on marching speed. Set fatigue 99 for some in the editor. At start this turned into 99/0 fatugue disruption, which then became ~84/45 and ~73/35 on subsequent turns. Couple dozen infantry IDs started marching on turn 2 and covered exactly the same distance no matter fatigue or road/crosscountry route. It was my belief that fatugue should impact marching speed yet the test does not show it. Will do some more tinkering later, preconceived beliefs are hard to let go of [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I do not agree with your answers, as already mentioned in my own post.

Care to share were the tests might've gone wrong? I'm really interested in as rigorous testing as possible. As long as it is not too labor intensive ofc.




Yaab -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/8/2017 1:46:18 PM)

From an October, 2014 test:

Marching experiment - one turn, main road:

British BF from Tavoy
Exp 40
Morale 10
Disruption 6
Fatigue 27
Miles covered : 24 (there was Jap air attack on the hex, the Tenasserim Batallion was attacked but not the BF)

6th Chinese Corps from Tuyun
Exp 30
Morale 30
Disruption 15
Fatigue 48
Miles covered: 30 (same as stated in the manual)






GetAssista -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/8/2017 3:10:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
Marching experiment - one turn, main road:
...

Sorry, it obviously hardly qualifies as good experiment. Lots of parameters so you can't isolate one. plus enemy involvement, e.g. firing of AA guns




witpqs -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/8/2017 3:33:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
30 is a bit of a threshold from what I have seen. Try it with morale set at 9 or 10. Also, you say you got positive results but do not quantify it. From what I have seen 30 morale allows some functionality but not as much as morale over 50 and less than morale over 80. Is it possible for your test to have more data points and to record the actual amount of progress achieved at each?

20 LCUs with 350 engineers working on forts 2 and port 4(6). Changed morale in the editor to either 99/30/5 for all and run several turns. Skipped 1st turn as it occured to me it might have some checks omitted like with airgroups. Yet, building proceeded almost identically for all morales. There were some +-1% discrepancies due to probably weather, but nothing regular. Morale 5 was often able to achieve maximum building speed (same as morale 99). This is enough quantification for me to close the case. In other hex, marching speed remained exactly the same for LCUs with different morale.

Also there was a byproduct of the testing, and boy will this rattle some feathers [:D]
I did not see any effect of fatigue/disruption on marching speed. Set fatigue 99 for some in the editor. At start this turned into 99/0 fatugue disruption, which then became ~84/45 and ~73/35 on subsequent turns. Couple dozen infantry IDs started marching on turn 2 and covered exactly the same distance no matter fatigue or road/crosscountry route. It was my belief that fatugue should impact marching speed yet the test does not show it. Will do some more tinkering later, preconceived beliefs are hard to let go of [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I do not agree with your answers, as already mentioned in my own post.

Care to share were the tests might've gone wrong? I'm really interested in as rigorous testing as possible. As long as it is not too labor intensive ofc.


No tests, experience coupled with Michael's comments on what he changed. Those related mostly to disruption but I think fatigue was involved, and morale is known to affect recovery of both of those AFAIK.




Lokasenna -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/8/2017 3:38:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
30 is a bit of a threshold from what I have seen. Try it with morale set at 9 or 10. Also, you say you got positive results but do not quantify it. From what I have seen 30 morale allows some functionality but not as much as morale over 50 and less than morale over 80. Is it possible for your test to have more data points and to record the actual amount of progress achieved at each?

20 LCUs with 350 engineers working on forts 2 and port 4(6). Changed morale in the editor to either 99/30/5 for all and run several turns. Skipped 1st turn as it occured to me it might have some checks omitted like with airgroups. Yet, building proceeded almost identically for all morales. There were some +-1% discrepancies due to probably weather, but nothing regular. Morale 5 was often able to achieve maximum building speed (same as morale 99). This is enough quantification for me to close the case. In other hex, marching speed remained exactly the same for LCUs with different morale.

Also there was a byproduct of the testing, and boy will this rattle some feathers [:D]
I did not see any effect of fatigue/disruption on marching speed. Set fatigue 99 for some in the editor. At start this turned into 99/0 fatugue disruption, which then became ~84/45 and ~73/35 on subsequent turns. Couple dozen infantry IDs started marching on turn 2 and covered exactly the same distance no matter fatigue or road/crosscountry route. It was my belief that fatugue should impact marching speed yet the test does not show it. Will do some more tinkering later, preconceived beliefs are hard to let go of [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I do not agree with your answers, as already mentioned in my own post.

Care to share were the tests might've gone wrong? I'm really interested in as rigorous testing as possible. As long as it is not too labor intensive ofc.



AFAIK, weather (aside from winter conditions) does not impact building.




BBfanboy -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/9/2017 1:00:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

AFAIK, weather (aside from winter conditions) does not impact building.

I thought the Monsoon had the same effects of slowing down ops (including building) as the Winter months in the cold zone?




Lokasenna -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/9/2017 2:39:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

AFAIK, weather (aside from winter conditions) does not impact building.

I thought the Monsoon had the same effects of slowing down ops (including building) as the Winter months in the cold zone?


Oh, yes this could be correct. I honestly haven't paid attention - neither monsoon nor winter factor into my decision of when to build or my decision of where to send engineers. I just meant to say that I don't think your bog standard daily weather variations affect building at all.




PaxMondo -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/9/2017 5:55:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

...Those related mostly to disruption but I think fatigue was involved, and morale is known to affect recovery of both of those AFAIK.

Correct as I know it ... and in game, it is hard to separate morale and fatigue. Meaning, things that cause low morale also cause low fatigue and so for most players, we see a correlation between morale and actions. It may actually be fatigue causing the action loss ....




witpqs -> RE: Morale and Land Combat Units (4/9/2017 11:11:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

AFAIK, weather (aside from winter conditions) does not impact building.

I thought the Monsoon had the same effects of slowing down ops (including building) as the Winter months in the cold zone?


Oh, yes this could be correct. I honestly haven't paid attention - neither monsoon nor winter factor into my decision of when to build or my decision of where to send engineers. I just meant to say that I don't think your bog standard daily weather variations affect building at all.

I don't know about building, but remember that the monsoon affects bases with the monsoon switch (I forget what it is called, might be a different name) set to yes/true so that their supply taken in from other bases is capped at the amount defined in the editor as modified by the base size (in this case meaning port + airfield + fortifications). The purpose AFAIK is to restrict supply movement more greatly during the monsoon season.

If a base has a supply cap set in the editor but does *not* have the monsoon switch = yes/true it has that supply cap all year round (again as modified by base size). I think various bases in the hinterlands of Australia are set up this way.




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