Supply oddity with HQs (Full Version)

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Leadwieght -> Supply oddity with HQs (2/25/2017 8:42:04 PM)

Posted this earlier in the discussion about the Beta 1.01 patch and Bill R. was kind enough to reply, but I'd appreciate some more feedback.

I have noticed that the number of Action Points available to HQs doesn't always seem to fit the Supply Level of the hex they are in, or that the game is for some reason lowering their supply levels (and ONLY their supply levels--units in nearby hexes seem to have the correct supply level and get the expected number of action points.

For example, I have often seen one of my HQs in an occupied town hex. The Unit Infomration Display will say "Supply 5 (8)", which I assume means that the supply would normally be 5, but the HQ is raising it to 8.

AND

When I press the S-key, the map indicates supply of 8.


BUT

The Unit Info window also indicates that the HQ has only 2 out a possible 3 Action Points, as if it were in a hex with supply level of 5.

(And, Bill, thanks again for your suggestion about this possibly being a weather effect, but it's happening in Clear weather hexes.)

So, is this a game mechanic that I'm not understanding, or a bug?

Happy to send a saved game file or screenshots to anyone who wants to take a look.

BTW, I think the game is GREAT!




James Taylor -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (2/25/2017 11:25:06 PM)

I've noticed that the full AP allotment is available only when an HQ has a supply source of 6 or better, ie 6(10), this can also be from another supporting HQ link.




Leadwieght -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (2/25/2017 11:40:26 PM)

Yes, I have noticed that too. Maybe it's supposed to work that way, I dunno. But it is odd that only the HQ seems to be penalized in this way. Nearby units will heavy the same level of supply and AP's as indicated by the S-hotkey.




James Taylor -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (2/26/2017 1:11:29 AM)

But only when they garnish the sought after 6 supply rating or better also.




Leadwieght -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (2/26/2017 3:48:43 PM)

Yeah, I understand that ANY unit type needs to be in a hex with supply 6 or higher to get its full allotment of Action Points. But I have seen frequent instances where an HQ (in enemy territory) is given action points at a LOWER supply level than are units adjacent to it, which are clearly drawing supply from that HQ. That's what I don't understand. Put it another way--why should an HQ in an occupied town be given AP's as if it's in a supply level 5 hex, while an adjacent unit is given an AP allowance as if its in a supply level 7 hex?




James Taylor -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (2/26/2017 7:37:37 PM)

I'm with ya LW, doesn't quite make sense, not sure what the logic is here.

Perhaps the movement of a supply depot(represented by the HQ) is more complicated then moving an army full of people and equipment?[X(]

Maybe Bill or Hubert will weigh in here.




BillRunacre -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (2/26/2017 7:55:53 PM)

Hi

If you look at page 83 of the Manual, sections 7.25.5 and 7.25.6 including the sentence at the top of page 84, do you find that what you're seeing is in line with that?

Essentially, the HQ acts to convert supplies received into supplies to distribute to friendly units, so it is perfectly possible for an HQ to have a higher Supply Distribution Value because it is effectively a logistical hub which in certain circumstances will be less mobile than the units around it.

Of course, if you find something out of line then it might be something else for us to investigate.

Thanks

Bill




James Taylor -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (2/26/2017 8:47:39 PM)

Nothing out of line, Bill. So the explanation is that because the HQ is a distributor of supplies it does not have the freedom of movement the units it supplies do.

I can imagine that as a service unit, the HQ must await the fulfillment of the maneuver units before itself sees the option to exercise its movement.

It (the HQ) is an in between unit and therefor must await and be at the convenience of both the supply source and the combat unit.

How about it LW, are you buying?




Leadwieght -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (2/27/2017 1:42:35 PM)

Thanks, Hubert, for replying so quickly. Re-checking the indicated sections of the manual, what I'm seeing seems consistent with that. [&o]

So, yes, SeaMonkey/James Taylor. I buy that it's not a bug. Or if there is a bug, it's in how the S-hotkey displays supply for hexes actually occupied by HQs. It does seem a little odd that HQs are selflessly distributing more food, fuel, and ammo to nearby units than they are keeping for themselves. Doesn't sound like almost any military brass that I've read about.[:D]

My underlying concern is game balance when we get multi-player. Given the terrain and the fact that Axis-occupied Towns in the USSR never seem to improve beyond supply level 5, this feature slows Axis HQ movement significantly throughout much of Russia. So Barbarossa and subsequent German offensives very quickly run beyond their supplies. I know they did IRL, and they would in the game would even if HQs benefited from their Supply Distribution value instead of the intrinsic supply of the hex, but I think this feature of supply mechanics really penalizes offensives in Russia.

This hasn't been much of a problem against the AI, which is good, but not that smart about using lots of "speedbump" units to delay the Wehrmacht. Slow HQs may prove more of a problem when facing a human playing the USSR. I fully expect to fail to get even to Smolensk by winter of '41 when facing any reasonably competent human, and slow HQs will play a big role in that outcome.

But I'd be happy to be proved wrong!




The Land -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (2/27/2017 7:34:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leadwieght

...

This hasn't been much of a problem against the AI, which is good, but not that smart about using lots of "speedbump" units to delay the Wehrmacht. Slow HQs may prove more of a problem when facing a human playing the USSR. I fully expect to fail to get even to Smolensk by winter of '41 when facing any reasonably competent human, and slow HQs will play a big role in that outcome.


I'm not sure I follow your logic - why would HQs specifically be slower against players?

Also not sure what you mean about "speedbump" units - are you saying the AI uses too many or too few? (Normally I see criticisms that they use too many...)




Leadwieght -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (2/27/2017 10:46:21 PM)

Sorry I was unclear. I didn't mean that HQs would be slower vs. human players, but rather that slowed HQs will overall hurt Axis offensive effectiveness vs human players more than slowed HQs will hurt vs the AI.

Giving HQs the benefit of their own Supply Distribution Value would allow HQs a full extra hex of movement




Rosseau -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (2/28/2017 11:14:58 PM)

The easy way is to mod HQ movement in the editor, as long as both have same modded version. Assuming all you want is another hex of movement out of the HQ.




TheBattlefield -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (3/1/2017 8:58:34 AM)

Or the chief commander simply positions a second HQ, which should also raise the basic supply of the restricted HQ. [:D]




ME262 -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (3/5/2017 3:12:21 AM)

I have encountered some odd behaviors and supply distribution to units as well..i just wish for one thing in the next patch, that generals have a lot more mobility.. able to move more hexes without using the relocate function/transport unit.. which cost $$$ to do so...in my opinion the generals already have support from nearby units... a symbiotic relationship ... get out or into a battle a lot quicker? thoughts?????




Leadwieght -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (3/5/2017 1:49:10 PM)

Hi ME262, I just wish HQs could benefit from their own supply distribution in all circumstances. That way they would generally be able to have their full Action Points allowance. I think HQs SHOULD be slower than combat units, but with the way the rules work now, they are too much slower, at least in Russia, IMO. I can still generally pull off a successful offensive in Russia against the AI, but I think that playing against human opponents, this could be a crippling disadvantage when playing as the Axis.

But I've just issued some open challenges in the MP forum, so I guess I'm about to find out!




freeboy -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (3/5/2017 2:55:07 PM)

well one thing I really find attractive is that supplies get to be a challenge and one needs to link HQs to get better coverage, and in the VAST areas inside the USSR supplies in the game are critical as they where in the war, and really the better the Axis do on the Map the harder supplies are.. and its simple, like interdicting supplies by bombing a rail hub city, not easy often but a simple elegant solution to the combined arms/ supply tug of war.... sorry if this comment is not relevent I think you are looking for a more how the game works technical answer but as an over view I would not want the supply to be easier.. actually harder IMO is better





James Taylor -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (3/5/2017 6:34:05 PM)

Amen, freeboy.

Look guys, it goes without saying[:D], if you want a good supply structure you must make the investment. Buy two HQs to work in unison, invest in Logistics tech to get more HQs and raise your mobility, simple.

Oh, and protect your supply line from interruption.

Its just a matter of priorities, the mechanics are there to make it so.




Leadwieght -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (3/5/2017 8:50:59 PM)

Freeboy, Seamonkey, you both make good points. The Supply Rules are in many ways an elegant system and I'm probably just carping. Playing against the AI, I have in fact always maxed out on Logistics and the purchase of German HQs, but have usually spread them laterally (i.e. roughly parallel with the front line) to ensure that no frontline sector is unsupplied, rather than constructing HQ chains from rear to front. Maybe I'll find more of a use for those Italian and Axis Minor HQs as rearward links in the chains.

Looking forward to some live opponents!




freeboy -> RE: Supply oddity with HQs (3/6/2017 4:28:26 AM)

Leadbuddy bring it on!

multi is such a different animal, also I find myself spliting my attacks about 70/30 while on the aggressor role with 30 going toward interdicting if practical the enemy supplies case by case of course....
Why do I mention this? Keeping a sysply system complex, ok more complex than nothing, but keeping this level of challenge for supplies allows your self or your opponent to make decision on interdiction, plus we all must plan how to push the beans and bullets... forward.. or react to interdiction with other assets...




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