RE: Fall Weiss II (Full Version)

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TheBattlefield -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/16/2017 12:41:27 PM)

No, rather the other way around. The tank/mech image (background) large and the infantry image (foreground) small as a reference to the unit size. For my Mod I had a similar idea. Since I only have two different unit sizes for tank formations (Div/Corps), I have decided for a variant with single and double tank images. [:)]

lowtech -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/18/2017 1:12:04 PM)

Have just downloaded and am giving your mod a try.
Try to do an AAR

lowtech -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/20/2017 12:55:50 PM)

So, events chosen:
German: Yes Molotov, Yes Lithuania/Brest (accepted by AI)
German: Yes aid to Spain
Italy: No aid to Spain
German: No Tirpitz,No Carrier
Italy: No Carrier
Next up invasion of France

lowtech -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/21/2017 11:15:21 AM)

Your notes on the various events are good- actually critical to playing the game, Crispy. Do you have a doc anywhere. I didn't see one here or in the game file. You've done a lot of good work.
I'd note that one can disagree on a particular historical premise but agree that "if" then the execution, in game terms, is well done. Specifically, I disagree with the likelihood of Fascist Spain entering the War but your scripting, especially having Franco demand lots of stuff (Production) up front, is correct. So well done. I do like your "smaller stuff" UBoot versus Tirpitz etc. adds lots of color.
I went the Vichy route this game. It simply takes too long to clear France otherwise and then necessitates Operationally transferring large numbers of Units to the East to be in time for May/June 1941 Barbarossa.

I agree with the critique on the "Turmoil" Mod which I tried out, that more is not better and I believe this game works well with few units and low unit density. I do, however, really like the Turmoil designers modification of the Naval War- Naval War in this and pretty much all games I've ever played is grossly misrepresented. The mechanics of Naval Combat post sail (1880s and onward) are more similar to how designers model Air units than "ground Units". That is that fleets are tied to one home base and "fly" missions returning to (usually) the same base. The more strategic the game scale (time frame) the more similar the function. The Cost in Production Terms for operating fleets is enormous. The Italians had enough oil for 3 sorties for the bulk of their fleet, a sortie being the fleet leaving port to operate for a few day in the Med, for the ENTIRE WAR. The major limiting factor on German Fleet Ops was fuel- they had very little of it. So the Naval War in this game is too deadly and too dynamic; fleets can sail around much too frequently.

Finally, logistics isn't bad in this game but should play more of a role, I do like your distributing the Production sources to more countries and tying it more to politics- so overall an excellent mod.
Thanks for your work here and, with your permission, I'll continue to AAR and post Feedback here.

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/21/2017 12:49:54 PM)

Thanks Lowtech for the feedback! Please feel free to continue posting your results, it will be helpful and interesting to follow your overall success.

I'll also touch on some specific points, the first of which is to answer your question regarding a doc file. There is not one currently, so I do rely on the player to carefully read the notes to the decisions is to anticipate the cause and effect of many decisions, and also to understand the reasoning behind the if/then nature of some of the "what if" events.

Regarding the naval game, the most dramatic change I have made is increasing the cost of operating the surface fleet for some nations i.e. Italy. As the developer has been making changes to the naval game a few times so far, I have opted to see the final product first before diving deeper.

I'm glad you are enjoying the mod and like the changes to production/income/politics of neutral countries. On a final note I agree that the game is best suited with lower unit density, but I will be expanding the overall unit total slightly with aims of improving USSR defense.

One note to keep in mind is that in my next version, USSR will not offer surrender when Stalingrad, Moscow and Leningrad are captured, but rather when all three, plus Grozny are captured. So I would suggest not accepting surrender unless you meet these terms.

lowtech -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/21/2017 1:00:02 PM)

Okay- The British Desert Army is really tough- the AI has moved most of the Brit AF to the Desert (2 Fighter, 2 Tac and 1-2 Strat) and combined with the two level 3 experience Units is a veritable mincing machine; the air alone doing 7-10 hits of ground units and 3-6 hits to the one German DAK fighter unit. Even with the Italian fighters deployed to North Africa, the UK air units alone are doing 100-150 PP of damage to just the German units per turn. This so depleted the German budget, that I'm going to restart the game. I had the Allies at 10% production so I'll default back to no AI advantage. I am a NOOB at this game, to be sure but experienced with similar stuff.

I'd add as a general design thought- at this scale having Anti-aircraft and Anti-Tank units is silly. Any effect is best modeled on the hex AA defense and the unit AA defense- AT should be modeled by giving the Inf an additional AT defense. Artillery as well, these should all be increases to the standard unit strengths capabilities. I understand the design challenge of Modding that stuff away.

The Naval war is far too deadly in this system- so still having to figure out the correct technique in this game on how to use the navy. Right now it's sort of "inch along closer" to the actual target and then "pounce" from a few hexes away. Way too much micro-management.

None of this is a critique of this mod btw, which I only enjoyed.

lowtech -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/21/2017 1:01:32 PM)

Again thanks for your work here- It is a real improvement over the original.

lowtech -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/21/2017 1:36:38 PM)

I completely agree with your version of Soviet surrender. In the context of this kind of game, the Axis should basically have to "advance to the Pacific" to ensure Soviet capitulation.

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/21/2017 2:05:24 PM)

I purposely made North Africa a tough nut to crack, given the tendency for Axis players to just send additional units to overwhelm the historical forces, I felt it necessary. For myself it is justified as an abstraction of just how awful the Italians performed in the initial offensive into Egypt.

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/21/2017 2:12:01 PM)

Also an updated screenshot of German and USSR main ground units for Version 6.0 including:

Garrison, Division, Corps, Army, Mountain Infantry, Calvary Division, Calvary Corps, Mechanized Division, Mechanized Corps, Tank Division, Tank Corps, (Shock Army - USSR), Tank Army

As mentioned earlier I support the Army/Corps strategic level campaign, so divisions will hold a supporting role and will not outnumber Corps or Armies.


lowtech -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/21/2017 5:59:17 PM)

Looks very nice-

I understand and agree with the rationale that a Mussolini Mandated Offensive should end as it did- complete UK victory destroying basically the entire Italian 10th Army. The dynamic element of the NA Campaign is very hard to simulate without very restrictive "idiot rules" . No sane Axis would attempt to advance with the 10th Army, Graziani certainly didn't want to. No sane UK player would yank much of his force away at the very moment the Allies were about to take Tripoli prior to the arrival of the DAK, and send them to Greece. And so on. Again at this scale, there are about 2 Italian Corps versus a Brit Mech Corp and a Commonwealth Inf Corp with the DAK being really only a Mech Corp in it's entirety. Certainly not all the units in the standard game- but NA is FUN- so what the heck.

My issue- and I've saved in Nov 1940 so I'll try both a DAK "Yes" and a "No" - is that the DAK is buzzsawed down before it can do anything. I'm building it up and the UK grinds it down every turn around 100 to 150 PP worth. I'm going to keep it near Tripoli and have the UK come to me- to see if that makes any difference. Two maxed out UK mech armor units are very difficult to deal with, and again with 4-6 air units...

But I'm certainly not complaining. I did a slightly different route with Spain- and your historical analysis is good. Franco was extremely good at getting the maximum out of Hitler without committing much (if anything)in return.

I'm not certain how this would be possible in the current game- the Logistics ain't bad- but huge chunks of the map simply couldn't support much activity given how minimal the infrastructure was. Malta wasn't really much of an issue, the Axis could and did run convoys around it (and the UK spent a great deal of resources keeping it supplied), It was the complete lack of any port or port maintenance and construction forces on the Axis side. If the Axis had the resources to actually turn Benghazi or Tobruk (or even Sidi Barani)into a functioning port, their logistics issues would have been a fraction of what they were. That they had to truck everything from Tripoli, which was easier to interdict from Malta, was due to their, for them typical, sloppy logistics planning.

Compare that to what the US committed in the Pacific for a "relatively" minor campaign, MacArthurs New Guinea Offensive, the ESB
Each Brigade was a behemoth of Amphibious, construction and logistics capability, I think they had over 8000 personnel and 200+ Ships and Small Craft and these monsters were (nominally) provisional!
Anyway- thanks again for the Mod

lowtech -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/22/2017 3:45:21 PM)

During the start I chose, more-or-less inadvertently the Break Pact with Stalin Option right after Poland. The Result is that USSR declared war June 22. I believe this slows down the USA entry (US 45% right now). I'd imagine also alters how the AI scripts the Soviets- I think the AI does have a bit of the historical Soviet forward deployment that, together with Stalin's abysmal leadership, lead to the destruction of the bulk of the Soviet European Forces within the first 3 months of the war. I think I see more Soviet Units but am not certain if that's your scripting or predicated by the event. I'll fight this game out just because it's unusual (for me).

North Africa
So DAK Triggered in Feb and incurred the following losses per turn by UK airstrikes alone: (all losses in Steps)
Note I transferred 1 additional German fighter to NA Aircraft Tech is Axis (1) and UK also (1)- I think
Feb 41: Fighters 6/ PP 78
Mar 41: Fighters 8/ Arty 1 / PP 104 plus Arty Total PP122
Apr 41: Arty 1 PP 18- for some reason the UK air didn't do much this turn
May 41: Fighters 6/ Inf 6 converted Fighters to lvl 2 air this turn PP71 +67 PP138
Jun 41: Fighters 6/ Recce 2 (4 destroyed by ground combat) PP71
Jul 41 Fighters 6/ (Recce 2 destroyed by ground combat) PP71

So the DAK "budget" for the critical Pre-Barbarossa turns from Feb through May was:
DAK 700 PP
Losses just to UK air
PP 420
So a lot. If the UK is prosecuting a good Naval War, in this game it is in the Atlantic and not so great in the Med. The Italians should be spending much of their PP on naval related stuff.
In any event an interesting game- thanks again

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II (5/23/2017 12:45:47 AM)

As the Axis have you invested in Anti-Aircraft Defense? It can be a difference maker especially if the Allies have massed their Air in North Africa. Also I wonder if the AI would split their air capability between Europe & North Africa if their was a Battle for Britain (Air War) as their historically was and you were ordering bomber raids across the channel throughout the fall.

hightower88 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 5.01 - (Ready for Download) (5/26/2017 12:13:41 AM)

Having an issue getting the mod to work properly. Ive saved it in the user/my games folder and the matrix games folder and every time I load the mod it just boots the standard 1939 scenario. Please advise. Also tried opening and saving in editor and both nations are still inactive

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 5.01 - (Ready for Download) (5/26/2017 1:02:58 AM)

Which 2 nations are inactive? Are you referring to Finland and Romania?

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 5.01 - (Ready for Download) (5/28/2017 11:17:08 PM)

Version 6.0 is near ready for release after initial play testing.

I am very happy with the inclusion of Divisions albeit at a limited capacity. Germany and USSR each have the highest capacity to build these new unit types; USSR can field 30 divisions and German can field 20 divisions in total.

There are literally 100's of changes I have made since beginning, too many to mention here. I created the mod to "overlap" the default campaign, so all fixes made by Hubert/Bill are also up to date as I've used the most recent default campaign as a base in this update. The overlapping of the default campaign does allow me to recreate the mod in about 90 minutes after each developer update, hence why I update with so many versions and make such rapid changes.

Anyways here is a list of some changes from the "default" campaign. I am not going to tediously list the 100's of minor changes or new scripts however.

Major Changes:

New Unit Structure and Bitmaps (3-D only)
Reduced Diplomacy Chit Effectiveness
Lowered Effectiveness of Bombing Ground Units
Decreased German Homeland MPP
German Economy more dependent on foreign trade
Research Progression Levels Decreased
Increased Reinforcement Cost of Surface Vessels (except UK/USA)
Increased HQ Air Defense
Reduced strength of French Navy
Strengthen North Africa Opponent (AI)

Summary List of New Yes/No Decisions:

Germany Decision Events
Schwerer Gustav Gun
German Naval Strategy
Civil Aid To Spain
Spanish Blue Division
Hitler Meets With Franco
Portugal German Relations
Swiss Banking System
Purchase Raw Materials From Portugal
Development Of Spanish Mines
Spain Repays Debt From Civil War
Treaty Of Friendship With Turkey
Claudius Agreement
Vichy Collaboration Policy
Fall Blau
An Alliance With Greece
Germany Strengthens DAK
Offensive In The Ardennes
Purchase War Materials From Switzerland
Non Aggression Pact: Lutzow to USSR
Transfer Troops Through Sweden
Coal Exports To Italy
Pursue Greek Axis Relations
Oil Exports to Italy
Recover Gold From Switzerland
Deliver Modern Tanks to Romania
Fortify Romania
Seize Besserabia

UK Decision Events
UK Naval Strategy
Chase Graf Spee
Anglo-Portuguese Alliance
Blockade American Imports To Spain
Reaction To The Blue Division
Send Arms To Portugal
Lend Lease To Turkey
Pressure Switzerland
Pressure Portugal
Switzerland Ends Axis Relations
Turkish Blockade
Training Norwegian And Danish Forces In Sweden
Malta Garrison
Greece Ends Economic Ties With Germany
Support Greece
Irish Neutrality

Italy Decision Events
Civil Aid To Spain
Letter From Franco
Aircraft Delivery To Sweden
Rush Troops To Tripoli
Sale Of Naval Assets
Investment In Aircraft Industry
Offensive Into Egypt
Submarine Base At Bordeaux

USA Decision Events
Lend Lease To Turkey
Commitments To Turkish War Entry
Aircraft Delivery To Sweden
Swedish Convoy
Lend Lease To Saudi Arabia

USSR Decision Events
Stalingrad Workers
Jointly Pressure Turkey
Construction of Petropavlovsk

Erik Rutins -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 5.01 - (Ready for Download) (5/29/2017 3:01:41 AM)

Very impressive mod, Crispy!

Took a look at the latest and played it through 1942. Very impressed with what you've done with the additional events and some of the other changes. Excellent work overall.

The only thing that was a bit of a surprise was the way you changed North Africa. I was playing as the Axis for my test and have to ask if the Allied AI gets additional units or advantages even when set to the non-advantaged game settings? Those 13 Strength British units were a bit of a surprise even for reinforced Italians and the British AI seemed to be able to keep up with losses and expand its forces better than I would have expected.

Keep up the great work!


- Erik

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 5.01 - (Ready for Download) (5/29/2017 2:09:17 PM)

Thanks Erik! I'm glad you liked and thanks for giving it a try.

The Allied AI advantage in North Africa has been brought up a few times, and in response is scaled back in the next version. For example the early Allied counter offensive units will not have such a large experience advantage, and I have replaced the early Tank Corps with a Tank Division. This should have a bit more historical feel, and hopefully will catch less Axis players so off guard.

Erik Rutins -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 5.01 - (Ready for Download) (5/29/2017 2:48:07 PM)

Understood - thanks Crispy. Was this an advantage only if the Allies were played by the AI or would it also show up in a PBEM game?

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 5.01 - (Ready for Download) (5/29/2017 3:03:02 PM)

The AI had these advantages only. The AI advantage will still exist, it will just not be so overwhelming.

tigercub -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 5.01 - (Ready for Download) (5/30/2017 3:07:48 AM)

waiting for the update to give this a try!

looks great!


crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 5.01 - (Ready for Download) (6/1/2017 7:02:12 PM)


ORIGINAL: tigercub

waiting for the update to give this a try!

looks great!


I will try to upload V6.0 tonight. I've really enjoyed it so far! It has a very different feel to it then my previous versions that's for sure.

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 6.02 - (Ready for Download) (6/2/2017 2:06:02 AM)

Version 6.02 uploaded.

tigercub -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 6.02 - (Ready for Download) (6/2/2017 3:45:27 AM)

installed ready for action!

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 6.02 - (Ready for Download) (6/2/2017 8:56:37 PM)


ORIGINAL: tigercub

installed ready for action!

Thanks Tigercub!

I am looking forward to playing my first PBEM of SC3! Take it easy on me [:D]

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 6.02 - (Ready for Download) (6/3/2017 2:08:22 AM)

There is a bug with the 1.03.04 Beta which doesn't read localization scripts (change unit name). This should be fixed by next developer update and unit names corrected. i.e. Brigade = Division

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 6.02 - (Ready for Download) (6/3/2017 5:02:12 PM)

Version 6.03 uploaded.

- Mainly amendments to combat stats of USSR Divisions & Mech. Divisions.

tog34 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 6.02 - (Ready for Download) (6/7/2017 8:19:22 PM)

Are you going to add more events for the united kingdom? because I feel like you could expand and add more events for Canada because we played a pretty big role and we supplied a lot of resources to the uk and we tried a lot of pilots here in Canada from the UK and America. Just thought it would be cool, keep up the great work!

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 6.02 - (Ready for Download) (6/8/2017 12:52:00 AM)



Are you going to add more events for the united kingdom? because I feel like you could expand and add more events for Canada because we played a pretty big role and we supplied a lot of resources to the uk and we tried a lot of pilots here in Canada from the UK and America. Just thought it would be cool, keep up the great work!

Are there any events in particular that you would like to see, or suggestions how they could play out? I agree there is the potential to add more for Canada, their minor status is a bit hindering however as to direction of the Decision Events.

crispy131313 -> RE: Fall Weiss II - Version 6.02 - (Ready for Download) (6/8/2017 12:11:02 PM)

Version 6.04 uploaded.

No fixes necessary, just some balancing tweaks in favor of Axis (Allied AI stomped me last game).

Also is there anyone who would like to make new NATO Counters? [:D]

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