RE: Four Seasons with Models (Full Version)

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Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/11/2019 6:19:33 AM)

You will rapidly get tired of me. I find bugs like mad Ernie has gotten a little peeved at me at times too )




ernieschwitz -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/11/2019 6:47:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

You will rapidly get tired of me. I find bugs like mad Ernie has gotten a little peeved at me at times too )


Yeah, but all is forgiven and forgotten. :)




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/11/2019 11:21:05 PM)

It will be hard to be tired of you, just exasperated in myself for not catching so many of those nasty little bugs.

I am almost there. I am not sure how the issue with the officers' descriptions popped up. And, the only real way to fix it was to go back to 3.2, as it seems to have crept in at 3.3. Unfortunately, 3.3 is when I did a lot of cleanup on the research tech descriptions! So, that is all done, the bicycle and motorcycle infantry issue is fixed as is carrier fighters. The rest should be tomorrow as well as, I hope, a way for you to edit the production, etc., without my either overriding you or things getting broken.

As for the infantry, this was a holdover from when bicycle and motorcycles were a transport, so they had zero attacks, and they were absurdly cheap, which means you would have been inundated by them. I made the switch because of the 8 SFType limit in units. There just wasn't enough space to have light infantry and a transport. So, now they will be like a light infantry and just a tad cheaper than regular infantry. The motivation is more of a recon unit. Up to 1941 or so, the Germans used cavalry as recon in infantry divisions, but then started switching to bicycle infantry. And motorcycles were used for recon with motorized units. To some degree I would also like to look at and fine-tune recon.




Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/12/2019 12:18:18 AM)

Ya that was why I wanted to buy them. On a southern map so wanted Bicycle to see if they worked in paddies and motorcycle for armor formations.




Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/12/2019 2:04:10 AM)

There is a recon Infantry in the list of types but I have not seen anyway to research them or build them.




Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/12/2019 8:17:44 PM)

Were is my fix? I am jonesing




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/12/2019 10:55:01 PM)

Here it is! FourSeasons-at2-v3.7.atzip

Those things should be fixed. As usual, a simple mistake in each case.

I also fixed an error with Indian general portraits.

I also made a variant for you for more production. Currently, it is set at +30%. This was slightly harder than I wanted. It turns out that I can't find out what the current production of the LocType is, I can just reset it. Thus, I couldn't get data from the data set in the scenario file. Thus, I made a stringlist. This is the last string, and ID=190. If you want to change the base production, it must be done there. As for one-week turns, the production is set to 66% normal.

Bicycle and motorcycle infantry cost 90 production points, as opposed to 100 for regular rifle. They are fairly weak. Bicycle can move an extra hex in plains and fields, and are faster on roads. They have the same recon as cavalry. Motorcycle infantry move at the 110% the off-road rate, so they can really move. In addition, they have twice the recon of cavalry.

Sorry it took so long. This compounded by the problem that I introduced in the leaders.




Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/13/2019 1:22:24 AM)

Hehe no problem now I gotta start over I like oceans so no carrier fighters was a problem.




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/13/2019 4:36:27 AM)

Me too!

Hopefully, you find anything for awhile, but I am sure that there are probably few small issues. Almost impossible for there not to be. I thought I was doing great when the three playtesters stopped finding them, but that is the way it goes.

As for the recon tech. This is leftover from when I had rifle infantry as a model. There were various techs that would allow you to make an infantry model, SMG, Airborne, Mountain, Marine, Combat Engineer, Light, Recon, Jungle Fighter, Desert Fighter, etc. The idea being to research those techs and then create the infantry model based on that. These techs are still listed, but are not available in case I modify it and go back. This is a cute idea, but it had a few problems, although somewhat workable. One was that I would also have to have an MG and mortar model as well. At the end of the day, I decided to hard code the various types.




Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/16/2019 1:39:38 AM)

Using the stone age selection you can never build tanks because light tank one is not available in the research fields.




Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/16/2019 3:54:31 PM)

Ok couple things one is something I noticed at the fix but wasn't to concerned with, The motorcycle and Bicycle troops have no weight they do not count against stack points and have no strength points in stack either, also just as a side note Motorcycles are HARD to kill LOL they mostly retreat from battle rather then die fighting ).

Now for new one motorcycle and Bicycle troops have land strategic movement for headquarters.




LarryBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/17/2019 1:56:23 PM)

Got an unusual problem. EDIT>>Version 3.7 with my mods<<

Get invisible enemy deep in my territory. Only found when moving troops thru hex on way to nearby city. Discovery combat took place showing armored and infantry units in combat results chart...but they were not visible on the map...if I destroy them all when I try to move into hex it is already occupied by new invisible enemy troops. The new troops seem to be fully supplied even tho completely surrounded the hex in question. However after a few turns they appear to be unsupplied and become vulnerable. Don't know if there are other such hexes as the hex shows as controlled by me. And there are lots of areas that I don't send troops thru.




Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/17/2019 8:19:56 PM)

Airborne 60 MM mortars upgrade to...... airborne 60 MM Mortars. LOL




Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/17/2019 8:23:34 PM)

Don't know if this is intentional but there is no airborne Machine gun I they only appear as airborne Machine gun II after Machine gun II is researched.




ernieschwitz -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/17/2019 8:59:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Airborne 60 MM mortars upgrade to...... airborne 60 MM Mortars. LOL



Well there is a reason not to upgrade all now ;)




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/17/2019 10:33:38 PM)

Sorry, been busy with travel (conference and a meeting tomorrow - back late Friday night).

I understand some of things you point out. And fixed them. Still working on Stone Age and weight. The weight shouldn't be an issue as they have a weight. Perhaps this was the zero stack points? There were some other errors in the reinforcement type, which is annoying. I probably moved an SFType in the list which screws up the order for the reinforcement type.

At worst an ETA of Saturday.




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/17/2019 10:35:33 PM)

quote:

Don't know if this is intentional but there is no airborne Machine gun I they only appear as airborne Machine gun II after Machine gun II is researched.



Yes, this is intentional, but perhaps not explained as well as I could in the descriptions. This is because MG I is meant to represent those heavy water cooled machine guns, which I don't think would be terribly practical for airborne operations.




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/17/2019 10:38:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryBurstyn

Got an unusual problem. EDIT>>Version 3.7 with my mods<<

Get invisible enemy deep in my territory. Only found when moving troops thru hex on way to nearby city. Discovery combat took place showing armored and infantry units in combat results chart...but they were not visible on the map...if I destroy them all when I try to move into hex it is already occupied by new invisible enemy troops. The new troops seem to be fully supplied even tho completely surrounded the hex in question. However after a few turns they appear to be unsupplied and become vulnerable. Don't know if there are other such hexes as the hex shows as controlled by me. And there are lots of areas that I don't send troops thru.



Interesting. Are you playing with "Partisans"? But, if so, they should be noticeable as they convert your territory. You should send it to me, but it would be best if it had been saved as loadable so that I could look at it.




Twotribes -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/17/2019 10:40:02 PM)

Thought so that's why I waited so long to bring it up, I figured since airborne Machine gun II actually appears in the list of units for making units it was intentional.




ernieschwitz -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/17/2019 11:05:23 PM)

quote:

This is because MG I is meant to represent those heavy water cooled machine guns, which I don't think would be terribly practical for airborne operations.


Well there's an image to make you smile a bit :)




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/18/2019 12:31:46 PM)

OK, I have pushed out FourSeasons-at2-v3.8.atzip

This should address all those issues plus a few that would have cropped up with other special infantry. Let me know. I will have more time tomorrow.




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/22/2019 4:07:36 AM)

I should report a bug in 4Seasons-v3.8-EU.at2, which you can easily fix in the editor. Rulevar 429 in the "Random Map Instructions" section should be 17 and not 12. This determines the British Regime names, which when set to 12 would be German regimes. Sorry. This cropped up because I had to again rebuild the EU and SH versions off of the US version. I had too many fixes to the special SFTypes to do it to all three files (although in the end, there are numerous things I have to do to make the files).

I will push out a 3.9 version, but I am looking at reckon and hide values, which I want to work on a bit. Then, I'll get another official version. And, I hope that other bugs haven't been found.




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/27/2019 3:44:32 PM)

I just pushed out an update FourSeasons-at2-v3.10.atzip. This fixes that little bug in the EU file and there are a few mods on recon and hide. But, I won't do much else on them for a bit. As I pointed out, the recon - hide doesn't work the way it is described, but it does work in a functional way. I have set things up so that it is advantageous to have some recon units in your formations. You will find that they aren't really necessary on the front line because all the cumulative recon gives you enough information. They are very useful for breakthrough units though as stumble through enemy territory one unit at a time. Just three recon units can make a difference. The recon units are cavalry, bicycle infantry, motorcycle infantry, armored cars, and jeep. Also, guerilla and commando units have high recon, but they are for something else (and more expensive), and not readily available.

Basically, with the infantry formations at the start, if you bump into an infantry division in plains, all you will get is that there is a unit there until you bring up more units with recon. But, if you have three cavalry or three bicycle units you will get partial info on its size and unit type.


Note that heavy and super-heavy tanks have no recon points.




mattpilot -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/30/2019 5:19:51 AM)

I've never played so much ATG before. Your mod is exactly what i was looking for. I really mean the praise i've given you in my other thread. I can't seem to stop playing, and yet i feel like i've barely scratched the surface.

I do have a few comments:

- SMG compare ability is missing - i see no way to select them in the compare menu.

- Some Cities have their texture missing. Not sure why - some cities have it, some don't.

- Why are mortars so good? Cheaper and basically better in every way to infantry guns. Higher attack values, higher attack numbers, cheaper to produce. Good on offense and defense. No tradeoff/downside? Only downside i see is they are "infantry" over "artillery" and they can only be produced at city centers... ? Infantry guns have higher initiative, but is that the only reason to produce infantry guns?

- Why are Levelbombers so 'weak' compared to divebombers? Seems all they got going is longer range, but hardly ever comes in play for me. Diverbombers are cheaper and better in every way. Why not limit dive bombers to 'hard' targets, and levelbombers have bonus against infantry & soft targets?


Thanks :-)


**Edit: One other thing - Ships are mighty expensive. I usually play with higher production cost to cut down the overall number of units on the map, but that kinda screws ships. 52 turns from a shipyard to build a battleship or carrier.

**Edit2: Also on the subject of Ships -> There is no ship with any significant (beyond 5/5) Anti-Air capability. I would of assumed at least the Light Cruiser would have some significant anti air - at least hat would be its logical role, no?




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/30/2019 2:43:31 PM)

Thanks, you have some points. This a good conversation, i.e., how to normalize things and make them integrate into a game. I have been rather busy of late, but will take a look at things tonight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mattpilot

- SMG compare ability is missing - i see no way to select them in the compare menu.


Found this. Left over from when it was a model and the SFType was just for the TOE. It wasn't getting into the list

quote:


- Some Cities have their texture missing. Not sure why - some cities have it, some don't.


I could use a little better description for what to look for.

quote:


- Why are mortars so good? Cheaper and basically better in every way to infantry guns. Higher attack values, higher attack numbers, cheaper to produce. Good on offense and defense. No tradeoff/downside? Only downside i see is they are "infantry" over "artillery" and they can only be produced at city centers... ? Infantry guns have higher initiative, but is that the only reason to produce infantry guns?


Good point. These are somewhat based on Decisive Campaigns, and the issues are similar. Overall, the mortars are little better on ATT, and Inf Guns are equal in ATT and DEF. These should be tweaked slightly. Inf Guns should be a bit better. To some degree, these SFTypes serve the same purpose in real life, except that one is shorter range and more mobile. Being more mobile it shouldn't be quite as powerful. Unfortunately the slightly longer range doesn't factor here as 16 mi hexes are too large to model that.

quote:


- Why are Levelbombers so 'weak' compared to divebombers? Seems all they got going is longer range, but hardly ever comes in play for me. Diverbombers are cheaper and better in every way. Why not limit dive bombers to 'hard' targets, and levelbombers have bonus against infantry & soft targets?


Level bombers are a bit better than dive bombers against infantry, but also have no favorites. They also have more anti-structural points. I will look at tweaking these a bit.

quote:


**Edit: One other thing - Ships are mighty expensive. I usually play with higher production cost to cut down the overall number of units on the map, but that kinda screws ships. 52 turns from a shipyard to build a battleship or carrier.


Yes, they are. This fairly difficult to see how to model. We are talking about 2 week turns, and most ships do take a LONG time to build: at least a year, and for capital ships 2-3 years. They are a significant investment in real life. So, how best to do this in a game like this. It just seemed odd that I could build a battleship in a few turns. I would also say that naval doesn't work so well, so I haven't spent a lot of time tweaking these. For one, it is extremely frustrating to have a picket out, and the opposing player can go right past it to do an amphibious landing.

quote:


**Edit2: Also on the subject of Ships -> There is no ship with any significant (beyond 5/5) Anti-Air capability. I would of assumed at least the Light Cruiser would have some significant anti air - at least hat would be its logical role, no?


Light cruisers have 10/10. I tried to balance this slightly in a test with several ships. Basically, an attack with dive bombers, etc., and not have the AAA drive off the attack completely. Also, it used to be that ships multiple attacks (I seemed to have changed this). So, I will revisit this.

Thanks for the feedback. It helps me make this better.




mattpilot -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/30/2019 5:28:42 PM)

I feel like killing someone right now. Had a long reply typed up, submitted it... only to have it rejected and all deleted because i was not allowed to post a link. Unggghhhhh


I'll retype it later ;-)








mattpilot -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/30/2019 6:43:27 PM)

quote:

I could use a little better description for what to look for.


Not sure what to describe - here is a screenshot
(it wont let me post the damn link in any form fuuuuuuu!!!!) ... its " ibb dot co slash 1zdm7K6 "


quote:

Good point. These are somewhat based on Decisive Campaigns, and the issues are similar. Overall, the mortars are little better on ATT, and Inf Guns are equal in ATT and DEF. These should be tweaked slightly. Inf Guns should be a bit better. To some degree, these SFTypes serve the same purpose in real life, except that one is shorter range and more mobile. Being more mobile it shouldn't be quite as powerful. Unfortunately the slightly longer range doesn't factor here as 16 mi hexes are too large to model that.


I found myself really just building them at factories to free up Cities. I feel like mortars should be good against soft targets, and infantry guns slightly better at harder targets/armor. That be one way to make a 'choice' between them. Could also increase the kill/retreat rate of the infantry gun, while the mortar with its increased attack count and lower kill/retreat rate would be more in the 'suppressive' role.


quote:

Level bombers are a bit better than dive bombers against infantry, but also have no favorites. They also have more anti-structural points. I will look at tweaking these a bit.


In my game it is showing the level bomber has 45 attack against infantry, vs the divebombers 70 attack. The dive bomber has more HP, but is literally only better when it comes to defending/fighting against other aircraft.


quote:

Yes, they are. This fairly difficult to see how to model. We are talking about 2 week turns, and most ships do take a LONG time to build: at least a year, and for capital ships 2-3 years. They are a significant investment in real life. So, how best to do this in a game like this. It just seemed odd that I could build a battleship in a few turns. I would also say that naval doesn't work so well, so I haven't spent a lot of time tweaking these. For one, it is extremely frustrating to have a picket out, and the opposing player can go right past it to do an amphibious landing.


I understand what you are saying. I just approached it more from a gameplay point of view. Unless you are playing on a HUGE map, the game is likely to be over by the time turn 50 comes. I may just be the odd-ball out that likes playing navy :-). I also play with 'higher production cost' to cut numbers down, so my opinion is probably a bit skewed, but i was thinking maybe half the time & resource cost for ships.


quote:

Light cruisers have 10/10. I tried to balance this slightly in a test with several ships. Basically, an attack with dive bombers, etc., and not have the AAA drive off the attack completely. Also, it used to be that ships multiple attacks (I seemed to have changed this). So, I will revisit this.


The 'investment' balance is a bit off, in my opinion. Dive bombers are cheap and with its high attack can basically have a very good chance of killing any ship, while risking little. While planes were ship killers in WW2, they did have to swarm ships and quite a few were lost in attacks. But WW2 also had some very strong mid-late war anti-aircraft cruisers. GIven that dive bombers have a HP of 80, i think a 60 attack on light cruisers against airplanes is not too unreasonable - given the cost and time investment consideration too. But i also like the idea of multiple attacks (with a corresponding lower attack strength). But ships, for the sake of balance, should have some method of putting up a fight against planes, as shore based planes to intercept are not always around and carriers might take a few turns (50+ :-)) to arrive to help in its defense.




Thanks for your hard work on this mod and continued support. It is much appreciated! :-D




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/30/2019 8:50:16 PM)

A quick little reply during a busy day.

Just the kind of conversation that I need on this!!!

I think you have some good points! Most of the effort went into building the package and getting the bugs out. Now it is time to focus on the best balance and playability.

As for mortars, I also realize that the mortars have more than one attack. This makes them look even better (especially when looking at the SFT in the editor). Here is a question for design. What do you think removing there "Rear Area" status. As they are, the only take casualties when a breakthrough happens. If they are not rear area, they would take casualties like MG units (which are set up to take fewer losses by ratio than rifle).

The same multiple attack thing enters when comparing Dive Bombers (2) with Level Bombers (1). I agree with your points, and also I should tweak the anti-structure values so that they favor Level Bombers more. The multiple attacks is to make Dive Bombers more deadly on tanks and ships. Otherwise, they don't do so much damage. The longer range could be a balance issue with the AI as the AI doesn't build airfields. Thus, I have a house rule not build an airfield against the AI.

Naval. This is tricky. I definitely see what you are saying, and in the past when I wanted water, I wound up editing the map giving ports a fleet at the start, and put a shipyard next to every port. That way, ship building wouldn't be done in cities. This could be done at the start with events, but one big complication is that I can't really tell how big the water next to the city is. It could be one or two hexes. And, if I put a large fleet and a shipyard there, you would think I was batty. The shipyard could also be made buildable, but I don't think the AI would be able to get them because I would have to make sure it was always on a shore hex. I am not sure that would be easy to do. Thus, the AI would have a big disadvantage. By the way, if you give the AI ships and shipyards, you can find some serious naval battles (although be aware that the AI knows everything).




mattpilot -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/31/2019 7:54:04 PM)

quote:

What do you think removing there "Rear Area" status. As they are, the only take casualties when a breakthrough happens. If they are not rear area, they would take casualties like MG units (which are set up to take fewer losses by ratio than rifle).


I suppose that would be a tradeoff, but dont really like that idea - there is alreayd machine gun as 'strong' frontline troop, and mortars, with a heavier investment, should really stay rear.

Perhaps change the mortars to only 1% kill chance, 10% retreat, and the rest is 'pinned'. Lower the attack for 'hard' targets by half (so that infantry gun is better in those areas). Then, i believe, the mortar has a niche and there is a choice to be made depending on playstyle/tactic.


quote:

The longer range could be a balance issue with the AI as the AI doesn't build airfields.


I understand and makes sense. Though i would still make it a clear 'choice' the player has to make between either doing damage against soft targets (levelbombers) and hard targets (divebombers). None should be good against both or where one plane could fill both roles 'good enough'. I think there needs to be a clear divide ... just for gameplays sake that the player has a 'choice' to make.



quote:

The shipyard could also be made buildable, but I don't think the AI would be able to get them because I would have to make sure it was always on a shore hex.


I did notice the AI never built a shipyard - sometimes it constructs cargo ships from cities, but i dont think i've seen other ships (maybe i just didn't recon them). Are you saying you can make the AI build shipyards? Given the relatively long build times, i would think it be a good idea to give the AI, via script, a free shipyard outside of its normal factory limits you imposed if there is say more than 30% water on a map (if you can check that? or any other method you have to make it work)


quote:

if you give the AI ships and shipyards, you can find some serious naval battles (although be aware that the AI knows everything).


Thats one thing that bugs me about the game is that the AI knows everything. Even my hidden commandos in forests get bombed all the time. I dont suppose that is hardcoded? (though i understand the AI does need crutches, wouldn't mind experimenting with it off).



As for editing the map myself before the game starts ... i somehow can't figure it out. Like... i go into the editor, click on some of the menu items, but i can't ever edit anything. I've seen screenshots of what to do, but i never get those menus. I think it is somehow bugged for me.





mattpilot -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (10/31/2019 8:01:19 PM)

One other thing i noticed ... The "Woods" Landscape doesn't allow cheap fortifications (the one from officer - card).. but its allowed on "Woods Autumn" and probably others. But thats something i noticed today :-).




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