TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write (Full Version)

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John 3rd -> TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write (9/14/2016 6:32:34 PM)

Time is slowly opening up and I have decided to begin work on cleaning up and making comprehensive all three of the Mods my Design Team has worked on over the years. As stated earlier we began in what, eventually, became the middle of the Mods: Reluctant Admiral, went back to the beginning: Treaty Mod, and then went to the end wrapping the first two into one: Between the Storms. During that time no effort was truly made to create a single, unified consistent database.

This is now the goal.

Additionally, I have decided to shift all of our work from DaBabes to Brian's (Big B's) Base Mod. He and I have written back-and-forth many times and I do enjoy the slightly differing perspective he has over the AE creators. As a member of that team he brings a wealth of knowledge regarding many decisions made in the creation of AE. He differed in some areas and has decided to go in his own direction. I like that direction so we shall move that way as well.

The Mods have always been ALTNAV Mods. We've sought to stay away from major changes within the IJA and have, thus, always taken a position that the Mods were somewhere between Scenario 1 and Scenario 2.

Most of this will be review but some of the work I intend to do is going to be highly interactive involving a BUNCH of commentary, thinking, and ideas from the readership.

I plan to start by doing a review of the ALTHIST and then move into the Naval thinking, plans, and changes.

John 3rd -> TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write (9/14/2016 6:35:14 PM)

The Treaty Mod (Scenario 45)
ALTNAV 1922-1937

The Treaty Mod for AE has been created to reflect a slightly different outcome of the historic Washington and London Naval Conferences to cover the time of 1922-1937. With little changes and tweaks to the Treaty System, a slightly a-historic outcome is produced. It should be noted that no changes are made to any major power from 1937-1941.

The Washington Conference

Secretary of State Charles Evans Hughes blueprint for naval disarmament gets out and the Japanese stonewall a Naval Conference for a full year. After considerable bickering and pressure being brought to bear, the Conference does take place in 1922 and disarmament is agreed upon, however, there are additions allowed due to the added time to get the meeting going. The whole Mutsu debate is scrapped due to Mutsu actually being ready and deployed at that point. While maintaining the 5-5-3 ratio between Great Britain, the United States, and Japan, there are several new outcomes:

1. The Japanese then argue to keep either a Tosa or one of the Amagi Class battlecruisers. The Americans carry the day in arguing for the Lexington-Class battlecruisers being completed. They gain the Ranger and Constellation (while scrapping BB Mississippi to maintain balance), Great Britain gets the option to build a pair of Super-Hoods (while additionally scrapping Royal Sovereign), and Japan completes Amagi-Class Ishitaka.

2. The whole subject of CVs is reworked:

a. Two 'experimental' CVs (two Hosho's and two Langley's) are allowed to be built for further carrier experimentation. The Americans still convert USS Langley and USS Ely to seaplane carriers and they are both then transferred to the Asiatic Fleet.

b. Two BC to CV conversions are still allowed but further treaty tonnage is added for one more CVL to be built by both Japan and USA. The Americans build the USS King’s Mountain (proto-Independence Class) and the Japanese back off the failed Ryujo design to build IJN Ryukaku (a proto-CVL as well).

3. The Big 3 allow for more research into 'Cruiser' Submarines. The Americans build an additional Argonaut and Narwhal, the Japanese add three Mine Layers, and the French add another Surcouf.

The London Conference
Moving on to the London Conference (1930), the subject of Cruisers is re-worked:

1. Japan--at all costs--sticks to its goal of 70% for CAs (instead of 60%). This allows for GB and USA to build two more CAs (USA: Burlington and Rome) while Japan gains one.

2. Great Britain--who nearly scrapped the treaty due to the issue of CAs and CLs--stands firm over its argument and forces a larger tonnage for CLs. USA adds USS Anchorage and Dallas and Japan begins building their scaled-back Mogami-Cruisers.

3. Both Japan and the United States were looking at hybrid Cruiser—CVs and they force Great Britain, following the example set with the Washington BC—CV Conversions, to allow for two hybrids each to be built in the early-30s. USA builds CLV Charlotte and Jacksonville, GB builds CAV Melbourne and Wellington (sold/given to those respective navies), and Japan finishes up with CAV Kushiro and Tokachi. These hybrids are not true, useful CVLs not are they true, useful cruisers but they have a unique niche in 1941 and ALL of them can be converted into carriers later in 1942.

***It should be noted that to take maximum advantage of the revised Treaty tonnages, Japan converts several of the oldest CLs into fast ML, builds additional Myoko-Class CAs and keeps the Mogami Class as 6” CLs.

Reluctant Admiral 8.0 (Scenario 50)

The Reluctant Admiral is a Japanese 'what if' scenario based upon a greater contribution by Adm. Yamamoto Isoroku to the development of the Kaigun in 1936-1941. The premise of the Mod is that Yamamoto exerted a much greater influence first on the Japan Naval Aircraft Industry, then as Deputy Navy Minister, and finally as Navy Minister itself. Yamamoto chooses, at great risk to his life, to forego command of the Combined Fleet and dedicate himself to preparing Japan for a war he didn't want.

He adds two new slipways for Fleet construction to facilitate a different, final pre-war expansion of the Kaigun. New and expanded Naval Yards, Heavy Industry, and Armaments are added at tremendous cost for the Japanese economy as the Admiral attempts to prepare Japan for a possibly long war. In so choosing to do this Yamamoto then changes the 4th Circle Building Plan replacing the 3rd and 4th Yamato-Class Battleships with improved Shokaku-Class CVs and a pair of Kawachi-Class fast Battlecruisers, two Tone-Class CAs, an accelerated Light Cruiser deployment, and additional destroyers. Quick, reasonably cheap carrier conversions are moved forward seeing all of the pre-war CVs/CVLs deploy by December 7th or at slightly earlier dates in 1942. Though only a few of these new ships are ready on December 7th, these additions shall make the Kaigun a force to be reckoned with well into 1944.

The Japan Naval Air Arm is changed so that everything is staked to the Zero Airframe with a specialization of the Zero into a Land-Based Interceptor as well as CV-Based Fighters. Research and production expansion is achieved by streamlining the air industry (cutting several models) while bringing forward second generation aircraft: Judy, Jill, etc… By great effort the IJNAF deploys nearly all new aircraft on December 7th.

On the ground Yamamoto reorganizes the SNLF units into a Brigade-Sized offensive force and—knowing it will be a war of attrition—converts many Naval Guard into enhanced units with Coastal Defense artillery (using guns taken from refitted warships) for a stronger defensive unit. Additional small units are added to the IJN’s Troops and support units better reflecting Yamamoto's foresight into base building, defense, and expansion needs. While all these units are small and not in great number they promise to help the Japanese war effort.

The foresight of the Admiral pays off during late-1942 and 1943 as new ships, aircraft, and ground units enter into the Japanese Order-of-Battle, however, the cost is steep. Though expanded and using modern aircraft many Japanese Naval Air units start with their experience lowered to reflect the dilution of the experienced pilots into new units that start in Japan or arrive during 1942-1943.

Supply and fuel reserves start at a much reduced state. The Japanese MUST take the DEI as fast as possible!

Once war begins RA postulates Yamamoto’s influence upon the wartime Kaigun.

Several more Shokaku CVs are ordered as well as another pair of CAs, and the conversion of several CLs into CVLs. First class destroyers are accelerated and emphasis is shifted to the AA Akizuki-Class at the expense of the more balanced Yugumo’s. Manpower is at a premium within the Fleet so Submarines, Escorts, and ASW forces all see a major retooling reflecting the Japanese quality over quantity belief. Yamamoto chooses the immediately useful projects, large APs converting to CVEs, better 2nd-class destroyers, fast transports and coastal defense fleet.

It should be noted that not all the changes are for the Japanese. RA 6.4+ brings major additions and more choice for the Allied Player. The Allies see continued major changes in their starting locations, new air units, the addition of Training Squadrons on mainland USA to allow for an American pilot training program, enhanced aircraft production numbers, additional Allied FP groups, several ground units, a French Squadron at Noumea, the use of CLV Charlotte (a Flightdeck Cruiser), a CLAA conversion for the Omaha-CL, an additional pair of CVLs, and optional conversion of the Kittyhawk Class AKV, Tangier Class AV, and Cimarron Class AOs into CVEs. The added warships reflect a ‘stopgap’ counter to the increased Japanese strength found at war’s start.

Between the Storms and BTS: Lite
Scenario 50 and 52

Warship Construction AFTER the Treaty Years

Battleship Question and Decision
After abandoning the Treaty System, great discussion goes into the first new battleships to be built by Japan since the Nagato Class. The choices ends up centering on building two modern, fast conventional battlewagons as opposed to the mighty Yamato-Class. The prohibitive factors of cost and time finally swing the decision to creating the Owari-Class (3x3 16.1" Rifles). While not sounding too exciting this change brings about a very interesting situation. Both Yamato and Musashi required their slipways to be expanded in length. The expansions were hugely expensive and took MONTHS to finish. By building the Owari-Class BBs the Japanese clear these slipways 12-18 months faster. The net result is two modern BBs (28 Knots) join the Kaigun BEFORE Pearl Harbor and their successors (two B-65 Class BCs) are either finished or near complete at war's start.

Two additional Owari-Class Battleships are ordered under the 4th Circle Plan as well.

Command Cruisers
While debate rages on about the new battleship design, a new class of heavy cruiser is initiated. The proposed Tone-Class floatplane CA is discarded for a balanced, more capable cruiser. These large cruisers are better called command cruisers. The Niitaka-Class grows to over 15,000 tonnes and carries 4x3 8" guns, heavy torpedo armament, impressive secondaries, and strong floatplane complements. These fast, rugged cruisers are planned to be a six ship class. The initial two are complete at war's start, a second pair coming in late-1942, and a final pair in 1944.

John 3rd -> Carriers (9/14/2016 7:08:42 PM)

Japanese Carriers
Fleet Carrier

The Japanese do not build Taiho or convert Shinano. There are no Unryu-Class CV either. Continuing the Japanese philosophy of 'using a few to conquer many' the Mods elect to go with a slightly improved Shokaku Kai-Class of Fleet CV. A total of six of them are ordered and built: 2 in late-42, 2 in 44, and 2 in 45. Here is a screenshot from the Editor of the class:


These ships reflect the immediate lessons learned in the construction of the original pair and have slightly more displacement, 100MM AA guns, and slightly larger air group size. They are tough customers!

John 3rd -> Carriers (9/14/2016 7:19:19 PM)

Light Carriers

With the changes of the London Naval Treaty, the Kaigun builds a more useful successor to the failed Ryujo-Class. The Ryukaku is build on a CL-Sized hull and is a fast, nimble CVL with only one hangar deck instead of two like the failed Ryujo. Air complement is a respectable 33 planes (24 Zero and 9 Kate). The Ryukaku serve as the predessor to the Aso-Class CVLs of the war.

Here is the class:


John 3rd -> Carriers (9/14/2016 7:24:28 PM)

Hybrid Carriers (CAV)

The world's navies elect to experiment with Hybrid Carriers and the USA, GB, and Japanese each build two. While being viewed historically as a failed experiment, the ships prove themselves quite useful as escorts and scouts. As is well known, the Japanese design uses everything allowed by the Treaty and more. The G.6 (as it is known) is a CVL (30 planes) with CA armament (3x2 8").

Take a look:


In the Mods we have had to lower their ammo numbers as well as sorties because the game has proven these ships classes to be highly useful! Whether it is the Charlotte, Melbourne, or Tokachi these ship proved to be highly valuable.

As would be expected, the Japanese CAV is designed from the git-go to be converted into Soryu-esque CV.

John 3rd -> RE: Carriers (9/14/2016 7:32:12 PM)

G.6 Conversion

Here is what they look like when converted over to full carrier. The initial air complement is 24Z, 18V, and 18K.


John 3rd -> RE: Carriers (9/14/2016 7:47:49 PM)

Escort Carriers

In the game, the Japanese player is given the CHOICE to convert large APs over to CVEs. The Japanese start with Taiyo and after that it is up to them as to what they are willing to convert over. If every ship is converted the Sons of Nippon have the chance to add 8 CVE to their OOB. Each CV is converted from one of those great big, highly useful APs (like the Asama Maru Class)that Japan does not have enough of! Since there are size differences two class of CVE are created: a 27 plane and a 24 plane CVE.

John 3rd -> RE: Carriers (9/14/2016 7:56:01 PM)

Aso-Class CVL

Sorry for this being out-of-order. Forgot to include the Aso's right after the Ryukaku-Class.

Building off the success of the Ryukaku, the Japanese decide to pattern that design by converting three of the proposed nine Tokoro-Class CLs. The conversions of these ships from CLs is indicative the Japanese Carrier Division philosophy of two CVs with a CVL forming a basic unit within the carrier fleet. This triangle structure of 2 CV and 1 CVL is adopted just before the war. It should be noted that this change was historically proposed by Yamamoto's young air-minded officers.

The Aso-Class serves as excellent CAP carriers with a Fleet carrier's Fighter Daitai (27 Planes) and a small Striking Chutai of torpedo bombers (9 TB).



John 3rd -> Capital Ships (9/14/2016 8:39:07 PM)

Wife is home. Will come back with the BBs, BCs, CAs, and CLs.

John 3rd -> Capital Ships (9/14/2016 10:39:15 PM)

Capital Ships
Amagi-Class BC

With the modifications to the Washington Treaty, the Japanese gain the ability to complete ONE of its fast Battlecruisers that were destined for the 8-8 Fleet.

The Ishitaka is a fast, powerful ship that--in the world of WWII makes for a magnificent CV escort and/or a dangerous opponent in a surface fight.



John 3rd -> Capital Ships (9/14/2016 10:46:55 PM)


With the help of Juan, we came up with an alternative to the Yamato-Class battleship. One of the designs called for a fast nine barrelled 16" BB. From this point forward RA and BTS will have these as the new Japanese BBs. Due to less cost/armor needs, lessened yard expansions, and less revolutionary nature, these battlewagons will see one ready at the start of the war and the second completed within months of the beginning of hostilities. The Japanese player is given an opportunity to decide whether they want to build and 3rd and 4th sister in 1943/44.


John 3rd -> Capital Ships (9/14/2016 10:54:10 PM)

B-65 Class

The arms race kicked off by the German Pocket Battleships leads the Japanese to build 'large cruiser' that be better called a 'command cruiser.' The B-65 design is fast, carries 14" guns, and like the Kongo's/Amagi-Class serve as fantastic CV escorts. Their speed also allows them to race in and cause real trouble! Two are built by Japan.


John 3rd -> Heavy Cruisers (9/14/2016 11:18:43 PM)

Heavy Cruisers
Changes and Additions

With the London Treaty coming in slightly different then what happened historically the Japanese do a complete retooling of their cruiser fleet. The marginal Aoba's/Furutaka's are shifted to 6" guns, thus, making them capable light cruisers. The impressive Mogami's keep their 15 6" guns and are not up-gunned. These changes effectively move and/or keep Japan with 8 capable, more modern CLs.

Heavy Cruisers (years built)
1. EIGHT Myoko-Class built: Myoko(29), Nachi(28), Haguro(29), Ashigara(29), Seiki(29), Chishima(30), Miyako(30), and Yoshino(30).

2. FOUR Takao-Class: Takao(32), Atago(32), Maya(32), and Chokai(32)

Japan starts with 12 CAs instead of 16.

Instead of the Tone-Class, the Japanese decide to create a stronger 'command cruiser.' The Niitaka-Class is designed with 4x3 8" guns and heavy Long Lance armament. Displacement surges to 13,000T and are a perfect example of the 'using a few to conquer many' strategy. The first pair are the Tone and Chikuma with two pairs due to arrive in the Fleet in late-42/43 and 44/45. The design for this class of ships was found over in ship bucket.

The first pair makes Japan's starting total 14 CAs with 4 building.



John 3rd -> Ligth Cruisers (9/14/2016 11:31:40 PM)

Light Cruisers
Changes and Tokoro-Class

Already written on there being changes with CAs. The changes are pretty big for Light Cruisers.

Tenryu, Tatsuta, Kuma, and Tama are converted to Fast Minelayers.
Kitakami, Kiso, and Oi become Training Cruisers with no need to build the Katori-Class.
Nagara-Class: Nagara, Isuzu, Yura, Natori, Kinu, and Abukuma
Sendai-Class: Naka, Sendai, Jintsu, and Minase
Furutaka-Class: Furutaka, Kako, Aoba, and Kinugasa 3x3 6"
Mogami-Class: Mogami, Mikuma, Suzuya, and Kumano 5x3 6"

The Tokoro-Class is authorized to replace the old Nagara/Sendai-Classes. Initially a run of 10-12 is planned but that is changed once war begins. These CLs have 3x3 6", good Torps, and 8,000T.

Total pre-war CLs is 18 with 8 building.



John 3rd -> RE: Ligth Cruisers (9/14/2016 11:37:26 PM)

OK. Done for the moment. Have a school district accountability meeting to run off to.

DOCUP -> RE: Ligth Cruisers (9/15/2016 3:54:25 AM)

Thats a lot of work John. Can't wait to see what else you have.

John 3rd -> RE: Ligth Cruisers (9/15/2016 1:11:32 PM)

Thanks DOCUP. I am just going thru the classes we have created over the years. Will add the Allied additions/changes later today and then shift over to ground stuff.

John 3rd -> Allied Wessels (9/16/2016 12:49:11 PM)

Allied Ships

With the Japanese detailed let us shift over to the Allies. Always keep in mind that ANY Treaty change at Washington or London means GOOD things for the Allies. The ratio was 5-5-3. An addition to Japan means 40% MORE of the that same addition for USA and GB.

In the realm of carriers, the slight increase in tonnage allows for the following changes:

1. CV The Wasp is built as a 4th Yorktown-Class CV.
2. CVL The Japanese build their prototype CVL with Ryukaku and the Americans build the King's Mountain (tip of the hat goes to CR (Dan) for the name). King's Mountain is a highly capable CVL that will set the stage later for the Independence-Class.

The Americans begin with Saratoga, Lexington, Enterprise and King's Mountain on the 7th.



John 3rd -> Allied Wessels (9/16/2016 12:58:51 PM)

Allied Carriers
American CLV Hybrid

The Japanese begin with a pair of hybrids and so do the Americans as well as the Commonwealth Nations. Each class represents the design philosophy of both nations:

United States--a great amount of debate goes into the creation of the American CLV. The debate and NUMEROUS design changes is rather entertaining to read. All information on these types of ships comes from the excellent book The Hybrid Warship by Layman and McLaughlin.

Here are the stats for CLV Charlotte and Jacksonville:


John 3rd -> Allied Wessels (9/16/2016 1:03:15 PM)

Allied Carriers
Commonwealth CAV

The Brits reluctantly build two CAVs (8" guns) of the Vindictive-Class and then rapidly transfer them to their Commonwealth Nations of Australia and New Zealand. The ships are re-named into the Melbourne and Wellington. Each ship becomes the flagship of their respective Fleet.



John 3rd -> RE: Allied Wessels (9/16/2016 1:04:12 PM)

Time to head to work. I'll detail the conversions allowed for each of these class when I come home.

ny59giants -> RE: Allied Wessels (9/16/2016 1:43:21 PM)


The Niitaka-Class grows to over 15,000 tonnes and carries 4x3 8" guns, heavy torpedo armament, impressive secondaries, and strong floatplane complements. These fast, rugged cruisers are planned to be a six ship class. The initial two are complete at war's start, a second pair coming in late-1942, and a final pair in 1944.

Need to add an option for an upgrade path that removes the TT and maybe reduce the number of FPs, but adds more AA so they can be a great CV escort.

ny59giants -> RE: Allied Wessels (9/16/2016 1:49:06 PM)

In BTS Lite you get two more Shokaku Class and THEN 4 of the Shokaku-kai Class, not 6 of the Shokaku-kai as you said earlier.

ny59giants -> RE: Allied Wessels (9/16/2016 1:59:38 PM)

Patrol Planes - We will need to discuss adding more Mavis/Emily groups to RA and BTS when you redo these mods. I'm struggling to keep the few groups I have in BTS Lite flying. [:(] I really miss have all those PBYs groups keeping an eye on Japan.

Going with your basis premise, Japan needs to be able to find the Allied fleet in order to destroy it. In my latest version of BTSL, I added two more groups (one in mid-42 and another in mid-43), but that isn't enough. [8|]

John 3rd -> Allied Wessels (9/18/2016 9:56:21 PM)

CLV Conversion

The two American CLVs convert over to CVL very quickly:


John 3rd -> Allied Wessels (9/18/2016 9:59:57 PM)

Commonwealth Conversions from CAV

The Commonwealth conversions are VERY good! If you think about this some, it also means that New Zealand and Australia have a limited amount of carrier aircraft now in the game:


btd64 -> RE: Allied Wessels (9/18/2016 10:15:12 PM)

John, Focus Pacific has Buffs for OZ and NZ in their own colors, along with other aircraft. DL and pull what you need....GP

GaryChildress -> RE: Allied Wessels (9/18/2016 10:39:37 PM)

No pics of the ships? [:(]

John 3rd -> RE: Allied Wessels (9/18/2016 11:42:42 PM)


ORIGINAL: General Patton

John, Focus Pacific has Buffs for OZ and NZ in their own colors, along with other aircraft. DL and pull what you need....GP

I believe--could be wrong--that that art came from my Mods...

John 3rd -> RE: Allied Wessels (9/18/2016 11:43:52 PM)


ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

No pics of the ships? [:(]

Have LOTS of art. Have liberally stolen it from many places: Big B, YOU, and Juan. several others as well with many thanks!

Red Lancer did nearly all of the air art.

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