Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (Full Version)

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markcab -> Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/7/2016 3:10:26 AM)

I'm getting flashbacks of the Gameboy Advanced series "Advanced Wars." It's a very casual mil-strat game where infantry are really only good for capping properties. Otherwise, they are truly crunchies.

In this game, it's no different except you don't need them to cap objectives. I've seen tanks assault infantry units with no real problem. And one strike, an infantry unit is rendered useless.

On the notion of strikes, the attack strategy seems to be just use neutralizing fire on everything until it's destroyed then have your land units cap objectives. It's like having the Death Star on your side There's no real reason to not use neutralizing fire, the ammo can always be replenished anyway.

I won't deny that both my tactics and technique are in need of help, and that modern war can destroy units wholesale. But I think that at least the infantry units ought to be more useful and that arty ought to be MORE spent if it uses x3 fire.

Other ideas:

We need to be able to daisy chain different order types. Too many times a unit will reach a river, sit there and die until it's my turn to tell them to build a bridge. Or, I like to be able to tell a unit to "switch gears" on the way, ie, hasty movement to waypoint #1, deliberate to #2, assault to #3. Or tell an arty unit to move to hex XY and then fire a suppression mission at hex AB. This game reminds me of TacOps, which did that extremely well.

On that note, question: If I have more than one waypoint for an infantry unit, and I tell it to dismount X hexes away, does that mean it'll dismount for ALL waypoints, the last one, the first one or what?

Random: ATGM attacks kill infantry in the open???





Stimpak -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/7/2016 7:09:10 AM)

quote:

We need to be able to daisy chain different order types. Too many times a unit will reach a river, sit there and die until it's my turn to tell them to build a bridge. Or, I like to be able to tell a unit to "switch gears" on the way, ie, hasty movement to waypoint #1, deliberate to #2, assault to #3. Or tell an arty unit to move to hex XY and then fire a suppression mission at hex AB.


This is a feature, IIRC, planned for 2.1 Southern Storm.




CapnDarwin -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/7/2016 12:54:01 PM)

For infantry to be effective against mechanized forces they need to have anti tank weapons and for better survivability be located in urban terrain. If you have both, you can take down armored units.

Most spotted artillery fire will be neutralizing fire. Ammo burn is factored into the units ammo amount and in most cases HE ammo is readily available for resupply. Artillery is a very pivotal force multiplier. If your forces aren't in solid cover or armored vehicles it can and will ruin your day.

Chained orders are on tap for 2.1. Dismounting is from the final waypoint. ATGMs can fire at infantry in high cover.

Hope that covers all your questions. [8D]




z1812 -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/7/2016 5:06:49 PM)

It seems to me that using covered approaches is quite important. Smoke may help as well. Mixing unit types in stacks seem a good tactic.

For sure dismounted infantry that has been set to hold digs in well after a few turns. They are hard to shift and deadly with ATGM's. The British infantry seem to be particularly tough. Counter battery is one way to hit the opponents artillery units to reduce them as they fire at front line units.

Any units on the move, and on low cover hexes, are ripe for destruction.

The game is deep and really requires some time to understand variables and tactics.




WildCatNL -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/7/2016 7:46:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: markcab
I'm getting flashbacks of the Gameboy Advanced series "Advanced Wars." It's a very casual mil-strat game where infantry are really only good for capping properties. Otherwise, they are truly crunchies.


Hi Mark,

You have a good taste for games : )

I bought a Nintendo GBA just to play Advance Wars and Advance Wars 2. It looked casual but was pretty deep, and had a huge variety in missions and units (anything from recce to aircraft carriers, gunships to rocket artilery, supply rules, landing craft, ...). The AI was a decent opponent.
Also in AW, infantry was best deployed in cities or mountain tops. And mechanized infantry packed a punch when defending.

William




markcab -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/7/2016 9:04:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: W1ll14m

quote:

ORIGINAL: markcab
I'm getting flashbacks of the Gameboy Advanced series "Advanced Wars." It's a very casual mil-strat game where infantry are really only good for capping properties. Otherwise, they are truly crunchies.


Hi Mark,

You have a good taste for games : )

I bought a Nintendo GBA just to play Advance Wars and Advance Wars 2. It looked casual but was pretty deep, and had a huge variety in missions and units (anything from recce to aircraft carriers, gunships to rocket artilery, supply rules, landing craft, ...). The AI was a decent opponent.
Also in AW, infantry was best deployed in cities or mountain tops. And mechanized infantry packed a punch when defending.

William


Hey, thanks! Yeah, the mech inf is pretty lethal until you go up against the heavy tanks and super tanks. I did like how in later games they did try to model some C&C by allowing you to designate a unit a CO (I always used an APC). I wish they had assaults, ambushing and allowed air units to fly above!

Yeah, now that I think about it, it sounds like I just need to start attacking through cover or digging in earlier. The game has gotten a lot more lethal since 1.0.




markcab -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/7/2016 9:59:35 PM)

Fewwww more ideas . . .

we ought to know how many more smoke/icm/mine missions an arty unit can do.

And I still think neutralizing fire oughta use a whole lot more ammo than it does. Otherwise, like I said, there's no reason to use other modes of fire. Yeah, I know the readiness can drop from strikes but nothing works better than just straight up cooking an AFV.




CapnDarwin -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/7/2016 10:26:52 PM)

In Southern Storm we plan to have special ammo tracking based on number of fire missions the scenario designer provides. Also planning to do ammo track by round as well.




IronMikeGolf -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/8/2016 4:35:31 AM)

It is tough being a dismounted infantryman in high intensity warfare. Not all infantry formations have a credible anti-armor capability (for example, US M113 equipped mech inf). Inf need terrain with good cover, be in Hold, and not give the enemy long LOS to them. Think reverse slope and close terrain.

On indirect fire ammo consumption: Suppression is 1 round per tube. Neutralization is 3 rounds per tube. M109 and M109A1 carry 28 rounds. That's enough for 9 neutralization barrages. For a 6 tube battery, a neutralization mission puts 18 rounds in the hex. It is understandably unpleasant for the recipients.




harry_vdk -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/8/2016 4:52:43 PM)

Back in 83 when I was located in Germany as a medic, my sergeant say the expected lifetime of a infantryman was about 8 minutes.




markcab -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/8/2016 8:40:18 PM)

I had a feeling I was having a hard time believing an infantry unit would get eliminated so quickly. I told my opponent that arty at x3 was an infantry eraser.




cbelva -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/9/2016 1:28:57 AM)

I would not have wanted to be a grunt in that war. Outgunned, outmanuvered, and a steel pot to protect one from all the things exploding around you.




Stimpak -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/9/2016 1:54:47 AM)

Only would have been two types of people: Artillerymen, and targets.




battlerbritain -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/9/2016 8:44:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

..... Also planning to do ammo track by round as well.


I think that's going focus a few player's minds [:)]

I'll be very interested in how that changes the gameplay. Big thumbs up from me.




IronMikeGolf -> RE: Infantry = Pointless and other ranting. (3/9/2016 5:48:44 PM)

@ battlerbritain: For most engagements, you will likely not see any difference. This is really an edge case. It becomes important when you have a unit with orders of magnitude of difference in ammo counts. Example: M2xx Bradley - thousands of rounds of 7.62mm, hundreds of rounds of 25mm, <10 TOW missiles. Shooting lots of coax and 25mm can make the combat routines think it is out of missiles, even though none have been fired.

Of course, when this situation does happen in game, we see it when it really, really matters to us right then and there.




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