How to make shoot on sight? (Full Version)

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PoorOldSpike -> How to make shoot on sight? (12/14/2015 7:41:48 PM)

I've been creating a few tiny scens in the editor and a couple of questions have come up-

1- I set both sides (mine and the computers)ROE's to 'Weapons Free', and 'Postures Hostile' and 'Engage Opportunity Targets' so that our ships will hopefully automatically begin blasting anything they see, and although that works fine with the computer's vessels, my own seem to be slow on the draw.
For example I send a Blue and a Red MRK Nanuchka 1 on a head-on course at each other with silent EMCON, and they spot each other with eyeballs at about 7 miles.
But although the enemy appears as a yellow icon, my ship won't automatically fire at it!
However the enemy isn't so shy, and a few seconds later he unleashes Sirens at me, and only THEN does my ship recognise it as hostile (its icon turns red), and launches a return volley of Sirens.
My question therefore is how can I make my ship automatically engage the yellow icon without waiting for it to turn red? Is there a magic button I need to click during setup in the Editor?
Or must I micro-manage my ship by manually ordering it to engage the enemy, and/or designating it as Hostile myself?

2- When enemy Sirens are coming in headon, my Nanuchka engages with Geckos, but doesnt turn so that it can also bring its rear-mounted 57mm Gun to bear on them. I have to manually turn the Nan broadside on to the incoming missiles to enable the gun to begin firing automatically.
Is that normal?
If so, do we have the big chore of having to micro-manage every vessel in an entire fleet if the AI hasn't got the brains to do it automatically?




Dimitris -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/14/2015 8:47:34 PM)

On the second point: Quoting the manual, page 50:
quote:


Command currently ignores mount arc limits for engagements at distances over 5nm; the implicit assumption is that at such distances captains micro-maneuver their ships to unmask their weapons as necessary, and often even perform “over the shoulder” shots with guided weapons.
At distances below 5 nautical miles however, there is no time or space for maneuvers and shot-tricks; a ship engages a threat only with the weapons it can bring to bear down the threat’s azimuth. This can make life difficult for large ships trying to engage smaller, more agile opponents or pop-up threats like sea-skimming anti-ship missiles.

This explains the 57mm restriction.




PoorOldSpike -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/15/2015 12:20:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

On the second point: Quoting the manual, page 50:
quote:


Command currently ignores mount arc limits for engagements at distances over 5nm; the implicit assumption is that at such distances captains micro-maneuver their ships to unmask their weapons as necessary, and often even perform “over the shoulder” shots with guided weapons.
At distances below 5 nautical miles however, there is no time or space for maneuvers and shot-tricks; a ship engages a threat only with the weapons it can bring to bear down the threat’s azimuth. This can make life difficult for large ships trying to engage smaller, more agile opponents or pop-up threats like sea-skimming anti-ship missiles.

This explains the 57mm restriction.


Thanks, but happily we can take manual control and turn the ship (eg Nanuchkas) to bring its stern-mounted gun and/or CIWS to bear on the incoming missiles if we spot them in time.
My testing shows a Nan or frigate can manually turn 45 degrees in 7 seconds, and as a Siren travelling at 660 knots takes about 20 seconds to cover 5 n.miles there's plenty of time to turn IF we're quick on the button..:)
Luckily I only play tiny scenarios and can therefore micro-manage one or two ships easily enough.




Gunner98 -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/15/2015 6:06:12 PM)

Although its not an automatic button in your first question I would do the following:

'F12' - stops time
click on yellow target - 'h' - to mark him hostile
'F12' - starts time and watch the fireworks

B




PoorOldSpike -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/15/2015 10:29:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98
Although its not an automatic button in your first question I would do the following:
'F12' - stops time
click on yellow target - 'h' - to mark him hostile
'F12' - starts time and watch the fireworks


Thanks, yes it seems the H key is the only surefire way to wake up our dozy units by kicking their butts to make them start shooting!
I've stalked the computer wargaming jungles for 12 years where it's normal for units to have a "shoot on sight" policy whereby they start blasting enemy troops and tanks on their own initiative, so having to nanny my units along in CMANO takes some getting used to..:)





Aivlis -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/15/2015 10:39:30 PM)

Well, depending on your Side's posture and engagement rules in a specific scenario, they might need to identify their target prior to firing. You can change the doctrine for a unit/group/side to engage non-hostiles if you want them to fire at contacts not positively confirmed to be enemy.




PoorOldSpike -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/15/2015 11:31:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aivlis
Well, depending on your Side's posture and engagement rules in a specific scenario, they might need to identify their target prior to firing. You can change the doctrine for a unit/group/side to engage non-hostiles if you want them to fire at contacts not positively confirmed to be enemy.


Yes in my own scens I want to set a doctrine telling my units to automatically TOAST all contacts without waiting to identify them, but I haven't found out how to do that yet.
Basically I want to simulate a 'Total Exclusion Zone' like the Brits did in the Falklands War, where they warned all shipping that they'd be toasted if they entered it, regardless of whether they were neutral or not.





apache85 -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/16/2015 2:11:12 AM)

If you want to set up a TEZ, you can do so using an 'exclusion zone'. Draw the desired area with reference points, go to:
Mission + Ref Points > Exclusion Zones > Create New from selected reference points

You can use this to mark anything entering the selected zone as hostile, giving your finger a break from the H key.




PoorOldSpike -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/16/2015 4:14:00 AM)

Thanks guys, the Exclusion Zone thing works fine, there's nothing you hotshots don't know!
I shall have to ask you sometime to explain great mysteries to me like the rules of baseball, the ending of Space Odyssey, and where babies come from..:)




Dysta -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/16/2015 4:34:51 AM)

Alternatively, you can set RoE 'engage opportunity targets' as Yes, and your units under this rule will unleash appropriate weapons toward all unknown targets. Perfect for non-neutral involved missions.

EDIT: If it doesn't work, my guess is the mission setting also have its own RoE/EMCOM. Make sure the unit in assigned mission is also set it as yes.




PoorOldSpike -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/27/2015 9:11:15 PM)

Well guys I'm sorry but I have to say I don't like CMANO because ships won't automatically turn to bring their guns to bear on incoming missiles, even though they have ample time to do so.
I can only suggest that a programming re-write be done to enable ships to engage with their guns "abstractedly" without having to actually turn to bring them to bear..:)




Aivlis -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/27/2015 9:24:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Poor Old Spike

Well guys I'm sorry but I have to say I don't like CMANO because ships won't automatically turn to bring their guns to bear on incoming missiles, even though they have ample time to do so.
I can only suggest that a programming re-write be done to enable ships to engage with their guns "abstractedly" without having to actually turn to bring them to bear..:)




Pretty sure that's working as intended: weapon arcs are abstracted beyond 5nm (?) so if you detect the incoming vampires far enough you'll have a much easier time taking them out. If your first clue that a missile is incoming is a visual (Eyeball Mk.1) detection, you'll deservedly have a hard time getting enough shots off at them as only some guns/rails will be brought to hear in time.

As always, and for edge cases in particular, please provide a savegame.




PoorOldSpike -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/27/2015 9:54:18 PM)

I created a small two-ship game in the Editor, reproduce it yourself if you want to confirm my findings-
Place two Russian MRK Nanuchka I's about 50 miles apart (you=Blue, enemy=Red),in daylight and sea state 1, and set them steaming headon at each other at 5kts, Red in EMCON, and Blue with radars on.
Accelerate time and your vessel will detect Sirens at 13nm coming in headon.
At 660 kts the Sirens will take just over 2 minutes to arrive, plenty of time for your Nan to turn to bring its rear-mounted 57mm gun to bear on them.
But it doesn't turn! It maintains its original course and engages with its Geckos as the range closes, but the gun remains silent because the vessels superstructure is blocking its frontal arc!
That simply can't be realistic, as any real-life captain would surely order a hard turn the instant incoming missiles were detected to bring his gun into action.

PS- The same thing happens if the Nan I's are replaced with Nan III's which have a deadly CIWS, it remains silent for the same reason because the vessel won't turn to bring it into play!




Aivlis -> RE: How to make shoot on sight? (12/27/2015 10:13:00 PM)

I see what you mean, you want a ship to have an automatic evasion behaviour like A/C do, but one that would make them present the most defended side towards the incoming threat.

Lay it out in detail and the devs might listen; it shouldn't be too complex by itself, but there are cases when you'll want a ship to keep it's heading because it's part of an IADS and turning to defend itself would endanger a more valuable asset. Maybe post this in the requested features thread?




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