Still can't figure out logistics (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the West



Message


DicedT -> Still can't figure out logistics (8/16/2015 2:00:11 AM)

I admit that the WITW supply system still vexes me.

I'm the Allies, it's October '44, and I've advanced to the Brussels/Luxembourg line. Many of my divisions are showing yellow, orange and red supply levels. Is this because I don't have enough ports (I've taken all Channel ports as well as Cherbourg and Brest)? Or I have too many troops in France? Or I'm mismanaging my supply priorities?

For example, Dieppe shows 8,316 tons received (5 percent), 8,316 tons sent out, and a capacity of 140,000. Does this mean that I could potentially receive 140,000 tons per turn, or that I could store 140,000? If that's the storage capacity, then does 8,316 tons received mean that I'm getting as much as I can? Or is there something more I can do to boost tonnage received?

I've devoted a couple of divisions and a rail repair unit to capturing and restoring the Brittany ports such as Brest, Cherbourg and Lorient, though they're far from the front. My assumption is that that any port in France will add to my total capacity.

I have my English depots set to supply 2. Would setting them to 1 result in more supply flowing to France?

The final possibility is that in WITW, there just isn't enough to keep most Allied units green. Like the Trix cereal bunny, maybe I have to get accustomed to the delicious fruity colors of Lemon, Orange and Red.




loki100 -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/16/2015 6:48:46 AM)

My very rough rules start from the assumption you don't have enough so it is all about priorities.

In the UK keep your main ports at #4, not sure it makes much difference but you want the UK supply to go to the ports, transfer to France is then a matter of 2 capacities - port capacity in France and shipping available.

In France,use the priority system to drag supply from the ports to the front line. So crudely further back keep your on map depots at #1, even scrap ones you no longer need (keep some rear area ones for the airforce).

Here you hit the second problem, many depots are small (the black bar) and assuming that your basic cross-channel supply is working they will fill up to their limited capacity whether they are are #2 or #4. Use the #4 priority for the bigger depots near your key sector. Its all about trying to ensure that where it matters the supply net is as good as possible.

Some turns this can be very fiddly, I often use the rail repair units to integrate a town into the rail network (=a new depot) rather than getting as close to the front (as in WiTE).

Once you have the on-map situation as good as you can, its time to look at the supply priorities for your corps and armies. If you don't do this all the hard work in depot and rail management goes to waste.

If you think a given army is not going to do much fighting, set it to #1 at army and corps level. If its allowed to rest it will slowly build up the supplies to allow an attack but most times the CV will be low.

How much you can set at #4 is a matter of how good the on-map supply net is. I'd rather a small core army that is well supplied than everyone staggering around under the lack of ammo malus. So in my last PBEM, I had 5 corps in the north at #4 and another 3 at #3. These held most of the armour and a couple of my best infantry formations. The rest went to #2.

In the south (aiming for Luxembourg-Belfort) your supply net is much weaker. A single corps at #4 will effectively starve the rest.

Once you get Antwerp repaired and working a lot of this gets easier, for the most part your challenge is then supply delivery. Note if you have enough supply the HQ priorities become less important.




LiquidSky -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/16/2015 7:45:49 AM)


From what I remember....I did this:

Set every port in England to Priority 4. Do this early in the game so that when you do invade, they will be at max capacity in supply. Supply will flow from these ports to destinations elsewhere.

When you invade, you will get ports. These ports should be set at priority 4 as well..you want them to fill up as much as possible. The ports in England will probably be able to fill these ports, limited only by cargo ships.

Now the tricky part. You will be moving inland eventually. You will need rail lines. You will need depots near the front. It will be a balancing act between the supply that flows into the ports, and the supply that flows down the line into a depot.

Best thing to do is to not have depots 'in between' the ones near the front and the ones bringing in the supply at the ports.

Next thing is to fine tune the flow of supply...I do this with the Germans and it works pretty good.

Set priority 4 for the Army HQ that is your main thrust....or have a couple 3's if you have the trucks. Set 2 if you think you are going to be attacked..or 1 if you believe that the units wont be attacked.



It helps to try and decipher the Army Freight Data in the log file saved in DAT/Save/Logs

It will start at the top with your main Depots. They will probably be full. Birmingham for you, or Essen for me are examples.

Next will be the Port Supply sources. These should be fairly healthy in Freight. Examples will be Ramsgate for you, or Kiel or Venice for me. They will ship supply out to the next list

Next will be the ports. This is where you have to figure out if you are getting enough supply to feed your whole army. A little work with a calculator can tell you if the source is enough for the continent.

Finally the list of rail depots.

Here is a good one for me:
Freight Received Used Shipped Truck Use
0 12346 4437 6097 5 Breda (102 , 178)

Its not getting enough supplies to meet demand. Although demand was low enough this turn to accumulate a bit.

When I look at the final lines:

Freight Received Used Shipped Truck Use

21871459 333606 1146727 74695 14810 18663 TOTALS

Truck Pool 3133
Trucks Used 24082
Trucks Lost in Freight 50685
Total Freight Losses 412686

Everybody got about 1/3rd of the freight they used. Some units didn't get very much....the higher priority ones got more. There is a big difference between 333,000 received in Depots and 1,146,000 used


The 74,000 Shipped is just depot to depot movement.




LiquidSky -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/16/2015 7:58:54 AM)



Loki makes a good point as well...depots can only hold so much. So you will need some inefficiencies by having extra depots to take up the flow from the ports. From the rulebook:

The maximum amount of tons of freight that a depot can receive via rail is equal to 5,000 * rail yard level. The maximum storage is 60,000 * port level plus 20,000 * rail yard level. (For the allies)

You need those rail yards. Which means you need those towns. When you are in rail mode (movement) those numbers in the circle tell you how much freight will flow from it.

It is also informative to look at the Supply Details of the units themselves. It will tell you what Depots it is drawing from..the range and how much supply it received vrs how much it needs. Also replacements seem to take a lot of freight.

It also says that the farther unit is from the depot, the more freight is 'lost' in the transfer. So you don't want to be drawing from the channel ports for your units on the westwall.





LiquidSky -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/16/2015 8:12:04 AM)



Hmm..I just had a thought.

If the bottleneck in the allied supply is through sea. In otherwords not enough cargo ships to carry supply to the invasion ports, then wouldn't it be better to fly the supply directly to these 'closer' (and safer) depots rather then to the front line units? Then let the rebuilding rail net and trucks in france deal with the freight.





RedLancer -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/16/2015 9:25:24 AM)

This is all good advice. A couple of clarifications and other views:

- The size of the railyard impacts how much a rail depot can hold and therefore what it can receive. The flow out of a rail depot depends on trucks. The further the trucks have to go the less they can shift so ideally a depot close to the frontline is best.
- The rulebook is wrong about rail depots getting only 5000*Size - they will attempt to get to 20000*size. The system hunts for railyard points from within 30 hexes of the start/end of the freight's journey but congestion causes greater railyard point cost. Big railyards with multiple rail connections are best.
- Disband rail depots in rear areas unless you need to supply airfields. They can hoard trucks you need elsewhere.
- Remember units on a lower supply priority receive less supplies as the max they are allowed is lower. At level 3 - 90% and 2 - 70%. So lowering priority is as important as raising it.

Plan logistically - avenues of advance should follow rail lines. The One Page Guide 11 provides some yardsticks to help.




loki100 -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/16/2015 11:03:39 AM)

other bit of advice, play Red Lancer's Market Garden scenario ... more than once

Its short and you can experiment. Try to get a feel for how many depots you can bring to full capacity and how many combat formations you can supply off them (keep an eye on ammo levels, that is probably the most responsive to shortages and the one that hurts the cv the most).

other thing is adjusting takes time. So if you set a corps to priority #4 it won't necessarily fill up with supply immediately, but over time it will gain relative to lower priority formations in the same area.





DicedT -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/16/2015 12:36:32 PM)

I'm looking at Lorient (port 5, priority 3). It traces a blue line to Falmouth, which I assume is supplying Lorient. Lorient received 29k tons and sent out 29k tons. There are two red lines from Lorient: one goes to a couple of U.S. divisions that consume a few tons, and another red line goes to 21st Army group, which shows zero received from Lorient. Lorient is not on a connected rail line yet, but where did most of the 29k tons that it sent out go?

Boulogne is connected to Dover. Dover received 30k and sent out 30k. Boulogne received 19k. Dover is supplying two airfields that consumer maybe 1k. Where did the other 10k that Dover shipped go?

Boulogne and Dover are both priority 3. Boulogne is a size 3 port. Is 19k the maximum it can receive in a turn? To increase that amount, do I need to change its priority to 4? I'm assuming that increasing Dover's priority to 4 (it has 123k in storage) won't affect the amount that it ships to Boulogne.




LiquidSky -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/17/2015 8:17:31 AM)



As I am wrapping up my turn, I have spent a good hour or so thinking about )German( logistics.

OKW I park on Berlin's National source.

OKWEST I park on Essen...a National source.

Army Group B is on a large depot in the Ruhr. I made every city a depot around Essen since Essen tends to be full all the time anyways....I figure the more the merrier.

Army Group C is on Milan. a National source.

Army Group G is on Frankfurt. a National source.

The Army's I put on the forward depots close(ish) to the front. I make sure its a depot with supplies. If it becomes empty, I move to another one, or use air to fly supply to it. The air is based on/around the Ruhr depots, and always have supply.

The corps I try and put on railheads near the front...barring that, on a rail line.

Then I set priorities. OKW -4, OBWest -4. The Italian army group is a 4, since it is sitting on Milan. The two western ones B and G, I put one on 4 the other on 2, or both on 3....depending on how the units look.

The armies I set based on how I am being attacked. 4 for the direct thrust...3 or 2 on the edges of it depending on how they are dug in/terrain. I put the rest on 2.

The corps within the army I assume take supply from the HQ chain.....so whatever supply reaches the Army (based on it's priority) passes it on to its corps based on their priorities.

SO I try to set the weakest corp on 4 to get the most supply....and then mix and match the rest on need...down to 2 (or 1 if it is completely quiet)

I will see how that goes.




RedLancer -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/17/2015 8:47:18 AM)

@ Liquid Sky - Hold on Joseph - Freight doesn't flow through HQs so placing them on large depots has very little effect - unless they have loads of SUs attached also sitting on a rail line is pointless too as freight comes from depots. WitW is completely different to WitE. Don't forget that setting an HQ to 4 will set all the attached units to 4 at the same time!

@ Diced T - Yes - Lorient is getting freight from Falmouth. The lines show the best indication of the best source of freight received but not the whole story. A receiving unit draws the line back so a shipping depot can have multiple lines but a receiving depot or unit only one. Another port may well be receiving from Dover but because that port is receiving more from elsewhere (let's assume Portsmouth) the line is drawn to Portsmouth. The freight flowing to 21st Army Group is probably going to attached SUs - not the HQ itself. The lines paint an impression of freight movement - not a detailed picture.

You really must use One Page Guide 11 - The graph shows port capacity. Ports are restricted in what they can handle by size. If they are receiving less than max capacity then priority may help. Once they meet that max limit priority has no effect. Don't forget damage effects what a port or railyard can handle.




LiquidSky -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/17/2015 9:35:27 AM)



Well..that opens up a lot of questions.

Units don't seem to have supply priorities.

So that would suggest that the supply priority of the HQ it is directly attached to determines it's supply priority. And the setting of the higher level HQ's is just to set the priorities of the lower echelons

The depot itself is god. Supply request starts at the Unit. Then a path is chosen from it to the nearest supply depot. Using trucks at the depot or the unit itself if necessary.

If the unit is within 3 hexes of the depot, it uses animal transports, costing double freight.

If it is greater then 3 it uses vehicles. Which can move up to 50, paying all usual motorize costs. Except it cannot exceed 4*range in hexes in MP's. Okay...I understand that.

Sooo...what happens if you run out of trucks? No freight moves to the unit? Some of my units are getting pretty low on trucks so the emergency use of vehicles rule may not apply...

Gad...I think I realize now how I should be handling the supply to my front. I should have planned a long time ago by building depots that could have filled up with supply during the non invasion turns. They need to be spread out about one depot every 6 hexes down the suspected defence line of the front. And I need a lot of depots. I thought that only a few would be better so that they wouldn't overwhelm the rail grid....but i'm thinking that's wrong.

And as an allied player, I want to have depots right at the front....every city/town with a railyard. And no depots in-between them and the ports. Every port needs a depot.

Marseille needs to be taken fast. It can draw from Oran..a national supply source. So more supply can get into France.

If the port's are not getting enough supply then make the ones closest to the front 4 and work your way down.

Fly air transports to the depots at the front. Or perhaps to units, but only near airfields. Flying to the ports might be better if the range is really short.

Base air transports in airfields on National Supply centers or heavy depots.

If you are still not getting enough, use priorities to stop the flow of supplies to units that don't really need it. A unit on priority 1 wont get supply unless it is less then half. You can even set TOE's to be less then 100 to stop replacements from hogging the lines. Better to get bullets then men.









loki100 -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/17/2015 10:45:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



Well..that opens up a lot of questions.

Units don't seem to have supply priorities.

So that would suggest that the supply priority of the HQ it is directly attached to determines it's supply priority. And the setting of the higher level HQ's is just to set the priorities of the lower echelons

The depot itself is god. Supply request starts at the Unit. Then a path is chosen from it to the nearest supply depot. Using trucks at the depot or the unit itself if necessary.

If the unit is within 3 hexes of the depot, it uses animal transports, costing double freight.

If it is greater then 3 it uses vehicles. Which can move up to 50, paying all usual motorize costs. Except it cannot exceed 4*range in hexes in MP's. Okay...I understand that.

Sooo...what happens if you run out of trucks? No freight moves to the unit? Some of my units are getting pretty low on trucks so the emergency use of vehicles rule may not apply...

Gad...I think I realize now how I should be handling the supply to my front. I should have planned a long time ago by building depots that could have filled up with supply during the non invasion turns. They need to be spread out about one depot every 6 hexes down the suspected defence line of the front. And I need a lot of depots. I thought that only a few would be better so that they wouldn't overwhelm the rail grid....but i'm thinking that's wrong.

And as an allied player, I want to have depots right at the front....every city/town with a railyard. And no depots in-between them and the ports. Every port needs a depot.

Marseille needs to be taken fast. It can draw from Oran..a national supply source. So more supply can get into France.

If the port's are not getting enough supply then make the ones closest to the front 4 and work your way down.

Fly air transports to the depots at the front. Or perhaps to units, but only near airfields. Flying to the ports might be better if the range is really short.

Base air transports in airfields on National Supply centers or heavy depots.

If you are still not getting enough, use priorities to stop the flow of supplies to units that don't really need it. A unit on priority 1 wont get supply unless it is less then half. You can even set TOE's to be less then 100 to stop replacements from hogging the lines. Better to get bullets then men.



I think the key is grasping that supply allocation to depots and supply allocation to units are different concepts. You use the first to create a block of supply in a rough geographical area (these are a little permeable as units can use trucks to grab supply from elsewhere).

So yes, lots of depots close to the front, but if they are all small (final black bar) and full, then build more further back, if your front line depots are not full then scrap intermediate depots (but you do need some).

In a geographical area, you use army/corps HQ supply priority to allocate that supply to units. So feasible a priority #4 corps in a supply poor region will actually get less supply than a priority #2 corps in a supply rich region. Equally in a supply poor area, a high priority corps will probably claim almost all the usage.

You are right about Marseilles, getting that working and the Rhone valley clear is the second most important thing for the Allies (number one is of course Antwerp), its why I think German players who just abandon the south of France are making a mistake.

If an area is supply poor, make sure you minimise usage. Don't attack for a while, keep the front line weakly covered (less niggly attritional combat), keep units static, strip out SUs. No point in having a mass of artillery if you can't supply it.

Also, be prepared to pull back a corps to a supply rich environment and let it stock up. In my last PBEM I did this a lot in the region around Belfort and over time it allowed me to grab Strasbourg and cross the Rhine. If I'd just sat and waited I think I'd never have had the punch I needed.




RedLancer -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/17/2015 11:49:10 AM)

loki has summed it up very well.

What I'm posting here is some of the background stuff that explains a bit more of the system mechanics. It is from the Dev forum and some has been amended during testing but it gives you more of an idea on how the system works at the nitty gritty level.

Depots

Depot Priority is different to Unit Priority. Broadly speaking depot supply cascades from level 4 to level 3 to 2 etc with every depot wanting to fill to 100% capacity (black bar). The system is not quite so simple as there are two freight shipment phases. In the first phase, type 1 (rail) depots will only attempt to receive freight up to 1/4 of the depot's capacity (other types of depots will try to receive up to their full capacity). In the second phase, all depots will try to receive up to their full capacity. Ports are still restricted to receiving by sea only what they can unload with their available port unloading capacity. There is still no unloading limit to what can be unloaded by rail in a depot (other than the capacity of the depot). Of course there are still limits on what can get shipped in by rail based on railyard capacity that is available to ship the freight. ----- The goal is to spread some freight around to all rail depots before trying hard to ship more freight to those depots that might use up excessive rail capacity due to excessive rail usage and railyard limits. Changes to Axis port depot rules will keep their continental port depots from needlessly using ships to fill what rails should be filling, and their capacity values are lower as they are not using these ports in the same way the Allies are. Depot priority can be used to channel supply in the best direction.

Units

Unit Priority has two impacts - firstly who gets the freight and secondly how much. The standard Resupply/Replacement segment is broken into many smaller segments in which units depending, on their priority and how much they have of an item relative to the need, may attempt to get resupplied (supply/fuel/ammo/replacements) from freight at nearby depots. There are 5 main phases, starting with Priority 4, then 3, 2, 1 and 0. Within each main phase, the chart below shows the sub-segments and based on the unit priority what level they must be below in order to make an attempt to get a 20% delivery of goods. So as an example, in the Priority 4 phase, units with priority 4 with less than 10% of an item will try to get a shipment of that item. Then units with priority 3 with less than 10% will try. Then units with priorities 2, 1 and 0 in order will try. Next, units with priority 4 with less than 30% of an item will try to get the item. Then units with priority 3, 2, 1 and 0 in order will try. Next, units with priority 4 with less than 50% will try. Then units with priority 3 or 2 will try. Next, priority 4 units with less than 70% will try. Then priority 4 units with less than 90% will try, then less than 110% will try if . After this, the same pattern will apply in the Priority 3 phase as per the chart. The logic is that higher priority units always get to try first, but lower priority units get to try to get some freight before the higher priority units can get large amounts (including overstocking). Whenever a unit qualifies to try to get resupplied, it must pass an admin check to get the item. When successful, it will get 20% of the need of the item (subject to availability and also subject to loss of freight during the delivery from the depot to the unit). If the unit is a Motorized unit seeking fuel, it will get 40%. If the unit is an artillery unit seeking ammunition, it will get 40%. For the unit to get replacements, it must either be in refit mode or pass both admin and support checks. Also, if the ground element is <81% of need, and the unit is in refit mode, if it passes both admin and support checks, it will get 40% of the need (but will never receive replacements that would have the unit exceed 100% of need and all Max TOE settings and TOE limitations are also followed). --- There is a restriction on the under 110% phase so units must have not moved to get resupply in this phase.

Phase Chart:
PRIORITY 4 PHASE
P4Units 10 30 50 70 90 110
P3Units 10 30 50
P2Units 10 30 50
P1Units 10 30
P0Units 10 30

PRIORITY 3
P4Units 10 30 50 70
P3Units 10 30 50 70 90
P2Units 10 30 50
P1Units 10 30
P0Units 10 30

PRIORITY 2
P4Units 10 30 50 70
P3Units 10 30 50
P2Units 10 30 50 70
P1Units 10 30
P0Units 10 30

PRIORITY 1
P4Units 10 30 50 70
P3Units 10 30 50
P2Units 10 30 50
P1Units 10 30 50
P0Units 10 30

PRIORITY 0
P4Units 10 30 50 70
P3Units 10 30 50
P2Units 10 30 50
P1Units 10 30
P0Units 10 30

You'll notice from the charts that the units on lower priority are capped in the maximum they can receive. Airbases on Pri 0 get nothing.




bairdlander2 -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/20/2015 10:46:55 AM)

So here in screenshot,Tortoli is port 2,priority 4 and received 7%.Cagliari is port 3,priority 3 and received 8%.The temporary port is port 2,priority 2 yet receives 20%.I want Tortoli to receive more as it is closest to front.So I should switch it to priority 2 and temp port to 4 to get this?

[image]local://upfiles/31566/DF280FD3E9254CB38BE7E1EFAAAD71A7.jpg[/image]




RedLancer -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/20/2015 12:07:07 PM)

No - here's what I would do.

1. Reduce the priorties on the temp ports SE & SW of Cagliari to 0. They are receiving freight (green) have loads on hand (blue) but not sending anything out - no red bar. This says to me not enough trucks as neither are connected to a rail line. (You may have been better to land due south of Iglesias to access the rail network.) I would consider removing these temp ports as it looks like you have enough ports operating - unless you want to unload more troops the temp ports are currently worthless as no freight is being shipped out. CR will give precise detail. Freight left behind won't be lost - it will feed into the system.
2. Look at the damage to your ports - port damage effects shipping capacity. Initiate priority repairs.
3. Keep Tortoli on 4 but reduce Oristano to 3, perhaps Cagliari to 2 - why - well the temp ports are receiving on two - this says to me the issue is not shipping. Also as Oristano and Cagliari have stock on hand so that says to me your problem is all about shipping to the units.
4. Next turns get the rail to Bosa and Nuoro repaired and depots established so you can reduce your truck capacity. Make sure railyards are repaired so there are enough trains.





Harrybanana -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/20/2015 11:50:16 PM)

My advice would be as Red lancer said but with one change. Level 2 ports can be repaired automatically by having a TF end the turn in an adjacent hex. So if Tortoli is damaged and you have a TF currently available (ie not currently prepping for an invasion) then move it adjacent to Tortoli before you end your turn. Next turn it will be fully repaired, but it will still be one more turn before it will be in full operation (because supply delivery happens before repair).




HMSWarspite -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (8/21/2015 5:02:22 PM)

A further addition; switch the unit 'tag' to supply. Whilst you have supply maldistribution as you identify, you have no 'at a glance' judgment of the state of your units. With the tell tale set to 'supply' (or Ammo) you can see who is really hurting. At a guess the eastern 2/3 of your front is really suffering (all supplied from Tortoli, which is empty and so probably ran out before meeting demand) the west is potentially supplied from Oristano (which has supply). If (big if) it has enough trucks it might be able to keep a corps supplied and in the short term you can keep pushing with that corps.If not, you pretty much have to cease offensive ops while the supply catches up (i.e. you complete the advice above). Otherwise you will enter a VP death spiral where units are dropping CV due to poor supply and hence taking more losses. You can encourage supply to one corps rather than 'smearing' it over everyone and getting no offensive capability by setting one corps supply priority to 4 and dropping the others to 2 or 3. This will retain a supplied portion of your army if it is at all possible.

Oh, and you have the option to move more aircraft on to the airfields around Cagliari - it can supply them and isn't at present, and as Red Lancer says, shipping doesn't seem a problem. Thus the supply that is there can do something useful. You could even use XII Transport Command to fly some supply 'up country from the south (or Sicily/Africa depending where you have captured).




cmunson -> RE: Still can't figure out logistics (9/2/2015 12:19:37 AM)

Good thread with good advice. I will add a few minor points. Red Lancer made a comment about landing on a rail line. For new players this is excellent advice and always make sure your mulberry harbors are on a rail line.

Another minor point is as Allies don't be so quick to dump your air force in France. England can cover a good part of the front for some time. I move units in sparingly until to allow the supply situation to catch up. Also, don't forget you can assign a repair unit to a badly damaged large port like Le Havre to get it repaired and importing quickly.

DicedT, it is not unusual for Allies to struggle, as they did historically, with supply issues in late 1944. Lack of depots near the front uses up a lot of trucks. As the rail net and ports repair and you take Antwerp it will sort itself out.





Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
4.296875E-02