Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (Full Version)

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scottb613 -> Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/19/2014 3:13:18 PM)

Hi Folks,

Dabbling with my first foray into scenerio creation - I haven't seen it in the list - has Operation El Dorado Canyon been done yet ? If not - would anyone know where I can get the OOB for the naval ships involved ? I know there were three carriers - the America, Saratoga, and the Coral Sea... I'm assuming they were operating as three separate CVBG's all with their own escorts ? If so I'm looking for the list of actual escorts used... I can't seem to find that information... As always - any help appreciated...

Regards,
Scott




Randomizer -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/19/2014 4:20:35 PM)

Wow, no starting small for you but break a leg (Good Luck!).

Getting specific CVBG escorts for a real-world operation can be research intensive and time consuming. There are several books on the subject and thousands of web-pages to scroll through. Below is an interesting page but my methodology is to use my 1986 Jane's to determine which ships were in the Atlantic Fleet (which fed the Sixth Fleet for most purposes) and then check individual ship histories to determine if they participated in the operation. Slow and tiresome but reasonably sure.

El Dorado Canyon OOB

Also a must read is this article on how to recreate a highly centralized air defence system (as employed by Libya) written by Command Team Member Mikmyk and found here:

IADS Article 61

Looking forward to the finished project.

-C




scottb613 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/19/2014 5:40:44 PM)

Hi C,

Thanks - yeah - LOL - I usually go big or or not at all... When I started with 3D modeling - instead of a house or simple object for a first model - I chose a fully animated working steam locomotive... No promises on this - but - if you're going to spend much time on anything - it might as well be something you're interested in... Thanks for the info - I'll check it out...

Also - it looks like someone has already done some legwork on this - as there is a specific "1986 Libya" import listed in the editor library... That's what I am starting with for Libya...

Regards,
Scott




Randomizer -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/19/2014 6:56:56 PM)

I dug out my old Harpoon 1994 Naval Review and an article therein (actually an AAR from a scenario played live at a wargame convention) lists the following:

CV - America, Coral Sea, Saratoga;

CG - Ticonderoga, Yorktown, Biddle, Richmond Kelly Turner (+ one un-named Leahy Class);

DDG - Scott, Mahan (+ two un-named Coontz Class)

DD - Caron (+ one un-named Spruance Class)

FFG - De Wirt and Jack Williams (+ one un-named Perry Class)

FF - Paul, Donald B Beary, Jesse L. Brown, Ainsworth, Capodanno (+ three un-named Knox Class) and Garcia.

With all eyes on the carriers it would seem that the particulars of the escorts may have fallen into the memory hole.

-C





scottb613 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/19/2014 7:10:39 PM)

Hi C,

Well - that's far more than I could find on the internet and it seems like there are more than enough ships to make up three complete CVBG's... I'd be comfortable throwing a few names at those that are missing and calling it close enough...

Really appreciate the help - sir - I'll dig deeper tonight - as I have much to learn...

While I did all my active time on fast attacks - I did do three years in the reserves on a Knox...

Regards,
Scott




mikmykWS -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/19/2014 8:44:44 PM)

Had this in a folder. It might be it:) Sorry normally I actually note the oob's..

- USS CORAL SEA CVBG.
USS CORAL SEA (CV).
USS BIDDLE (CG) .
USS DE WERT (FFG).
USS WILLIAMS (FFG).
USS J.L. BROWN (FF).
USS CAPADANO (FF).
CARRIER AIR WING 13.


- USS AMERICA CVBG.
~ USS AMERICA (CV).
USS TICONDEROGA (CG/AEGIS).
-- USS DALE (CG).
USS FARRAGOT (DDG).
USS KING (DDG).
~ USS HALYBURTON (FFG).
USS ALYWIN (FF).
USS PHARRIS (FF).
USS VREELAND (FF).
USS PETERSON (DD).
CARRIER AIR WING 1




Terminus -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/19/2014 8:56:05 PM)

Do you have the air wing compositions?




mikmykWS -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/19/2014 8:57:43 PM)

More here

http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/history/historical/libya/eldoradocanyon1986.html




Varangian -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/19/2014 9:12:31 PM)

Hi Scott

There is a good detailed document on El Dorado in the downloadable document archive for the SamSim program.
It shows positions of facilities, SAMs etc.

You can download it from here

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Hope this helps




Gunner98 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/19/2014 9:42:20 PM)

A good place for Air wings is here http://www.wings-aviation.ch/

I believe CVW2 was on the America: composition was: http://www.wings-aviation.ch/24-Naval-Wings/1963/1963-Basis-de.htm

CV-66 USS America
10. March 1986 - 10. September 1986
Mediterranean (Lybien)
VF-102 F-14A AB 100
VF-33 F-14A AB 200
VA-46 A-7E AB 300
VA-72 A-7E AB 400
VA-34 A-6E, KA-6D AB 500
VAW-123 E-2C AB 600
VMAQ-2 Det. Y EA-6B AB 605
HS-11 SH-3H AB 610
VS-32 S-3A AB 700
VQ-2 Det. EA-3B JQ 10


The Coral Sea had CVW 13 on board which was only active from 84 until 91. Its composition is here: http://www.wings-aviation.ch/24-Naval-Wings/1948/CVW-13.htm


CV-43 USS Coral Sea
1. Oktober 1985 - 19. May 1986
Mediterranean (Lybia)
VFA-131 F/A-18A AK 100
VFA-132 F/A-18A AK 200
VMFA-314 F/A-18A AK 300
VMFA-323 F/A-18A AK 400
VA-55 A-6E / KA-6D AK 500
VAW-127 E-2C AK 600
VAQ-135 * EA-6B AK 605
HS-17 SH-3D / H AK 610
VQ-2 Det. RA-3B JQ 10
* VAQ-135 was deployed aboard the Coral Sea from 2. January 1986 on.

Sara had CVW-17, http://www.wings-aviation.ch/24-Naval-Wings/1963/1963-Basis-de.htm

CV-60 USS Saratoga
25. August 1985 - 16. April 1986
Indian Ocean / Mediterranean (Lybia)

VF-74 F-14A AA 100
VF-103 F-14A AA 200
VA-83 A-7E AA 300
VA-81 A-7E AA 400
VA-85 A-6E / KA-6D AA 500
VAW-125 E-2C AA 600
VAQ-137 EA-6B AA 605
HS-3 SH-3D / HAA 610
VS-30 S-3A AA 700
VQ-2 Det. B EA-3B JQ 00



B




scottb613 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/19/2014 9:53:00 PM)

Hi Folks,

LOL - ask and you will receive... It looks like I have much to digest...

You know you're not going to have a good day when - three - carrier battle groups show up on your doorstep...

Thanks so much for all the information and help !!!
[;)]

Regards,
Scott




Dobey455 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/20/2014 4:53:50 AM)

Another good site specifically for US Carrier deployments listing the squadrons carried and type flown plus the dates of each deployment:

http://www.gonavy.jp/CVf.html

[image]local://upfiles/27677/D23200B1D27C444CB35FF93250A4CE0A.jpg[/image]




Stevechase -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/21/2014 2:30:25 AM)

There was an old Harpoon 3 scenario that featured a good representation of the oob and of the U.S. ac flight paths. If you can find it that would be a really good source.
btw
I like to imagine sometimes what would have happened if the U.S. went ahead with the original plan to use F117's, maybe you could explore that as well.
Good Luck




SSN754planker -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/22/2014 3:15:23 PM)

USS AMERICA USS TICONDEROGA <CG-~7 AEGIS> USS DALt <CG-19) t USS FARRAGUT <DDG-37> USS KING <DDG-~1) USS HALYBURTON <FFG-~0) USS ALYWIN <FF-1081> USS PHARRIS <FF-109~) USS VREELAND <FF-1068)

AllAIN DOCUMENT Ill PROJECTED CVBG COKPOSITION USS CORAL SEA USS YORKTOWN <CG-~8 AEGIS> USS RICHftONO K TURNER (CG-20) USS SCOTT <DDG-995) USS CARON <DD-970) USS DE WERT <FFG-~5) USS DONALD 8 BEARY <FF-1085> USS PAUL <FF-1080> USS AINSWORTH <FF-1090) USS GARCIA <FF-10~0> I i I

USS SARATOGA USS BIDDLE <CG-3~) USS JACK WILLIAMS <FFG-24> USS CAPODANNO <FF-1093) USS JESSE L BROWN <FF-1089)


I pulled this off a pdf about Operation ElDorado Canyon and Attain Document I, II, and III




scottb613 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/22/2014 4:05:59 PM)

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the wealth of information - this will take a while - I'm working my way through it slowly - learning as I go... Trying to balance scenario creation with leaning the game, improving my Sea Hag setup, and creating some sorely needed "description"/ "photo" updates in the DB3000/CWDB entries...

Question - helicopters - 1986 was right around the phase in of the new Seahawk LAMPS helicopters - right ? What would you think the escorts carried at this time - a mix of Seahawk/Seasprite or would they all be Seasprite... Would the escorts with dual hangars usually have both positions filled ?

Thanks,
Scott




ComDev -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/23/2014 5:07:36 AM)

Hmmm I believe I included the 1986 Libyan SAM network in the INST directory?

C:\Matrix Games\Command Modern Air Naval Operations\ImportExport\Libya\Libya 1986




scottb613 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (8/23/2014 3:15:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Hmmm I believe I included the 1986 Libyan SAM network in the INST directory?

C:\Matrix Games\Command Modern Air Naval Operations\ImportExport\Libya\Libya 1986


LOL - I noticed that in the import selections - which is probably what started me down this path... Thanks for including it.,.

Regards,
Scott




juanchopancho -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (3/26/2015 9:01:38 PM)

Any luck with this one?

I'm trying to find OOB information about the Libyan Air Force in 1986, not finding much online.




Primarchx -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (3/27/2015 1:58:07 AM)

See here for lots of DOD AAR info.





Gunner98 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (3/27/2015 2:36:04 AM)

Some interesting data here: http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/050328_norafrimibal%5B1%5D.pdf

Fairly modern in relation to what your looking for but there is some historical data on pages 34-36. A bunch of other interesting stuff as well.

B




juanchopancho -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (3/27/2015 6:12:32 PM)

Wow, good info, thanks guys!




PN79 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (12/5/2016 9:32:40 PM)

Hello,
I am very slowly working on Eldorado mission as sort of "just see what's going on". So far only attack on Benghazi is finished (I am very slow sorry) but I have question: Does anybody knows what was status of Libyan S-200 sites? They supposedly received 4 batteries by the end of 1985 with one antenna destroyed in Sirte in March 1986 and replaced by antenna originally destined for Benghazi. Which leaves two systems for Tripoli but it seems that Tripoli was actually without any S-200 in April 1986.

Anyway attached is work version - sorry for no text in description.




CV60 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (12/6/2016 12:33:09 AM)

quote:

Hello,
I am very slowly working on Eldorado mission as sort of "just see what's going on". So far only attack on Benghazi is finished (I am very slow sorry) but I have question: Does anybody knows what was status of Libyan S-200 sites? They supposedly received 4 batteries by the end of 1985 with one antenna destroyed in Sirte in March 1986 and replaced by antenna originally destined for Benghazi. Which leaves two systems for Tripoli but it seems that Tripoli was actually without any S-200 in April 1986.

Anyway attached is work version - sorry for no text in description.

Attachment (1)


See if you can get a copy of "El Dorado Canyon" by Joseph Stanik (Naval Institute Press). If memory serves, there is information in there on the Libyan OOB. Unfortunately, I can't find my copy. ALso, go to the documentation section of the SAM Simulator site
http://www.mediafire.com/download/y5s92qmc18jdkms/SAMSim_docs_150803.rar

There is a document in there called "Operation El Dorado Canyon" that talks about the Libyan SAM system.

See also
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/International_Security_Affairs/234.pdf


For additional OOB information.

You can also check out these pages for verification of SAM sites. These are mainly positions from approximately 2008, but might give some insight into the network in 1986:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-libyan-air-defense-system-libya-s-surface-to-air-missile-sam-network/23841
http://geimint.blogspot.com/2010/05/libyan-sam-network.html

And finally

http://www.ausairpower.net/PDF-A/DT-Libya-Jun-2011.pdf has a section about the 1986-era Libyan IADS. Not a lot of detail, but may be useful




PN79 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (12/6/2016 7:17:36 PM)

Thank you very much. Very helpful. Also in that dod.mil 234.pdf is hint that only Sirte SA-5 was operational plus small but interesting info about SAM suppression flights is here.




Kushan04 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (12/11/2016 4:04:57 AM)

This might be useful to you as well ORBAT - Eldorado Canyon




PN79 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (12/11/2016 12:17:31 PM)

Thank you. I also need to rething positions of carrier groups as currently I have them too far. The information presented is 150 miles offshore. Are there other information about it or is it realistic?




BeirutDude -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (11/22/2020 1:47:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmykWS

Had this in a folder. It might be it:) Sorry normally I actually note the oob's..

- USS CORAL SEA CVBG.
USS CORAL SEA (CV).
USS BIDDLE (CG) .
USS DE WERT (FFG).
USS WILLIAMS (FFG).
USS J.L. BROWN (FF).
USS CAPADANO (FF).
CARRIER AIR WING 13.


- USS AMERICA CVBG.
~ USS AMERICA (CV).
USS TICONDEROGA (CG/AEGIS).
-- USS DALE (CG).
USS FARRAGOT (DDG).
USS KING (DDG).
~ USS HALYBURTON (FFG).
USS ALYWIN (FF).
USS PHARRIS (FF).
USS VREELAND (FF).
USS PETERSON (DD).
CARRIER AIR WING 1


MikmykWS (or anyone), do you have any info on the Sara's CVBG composition? Pretty sure USS Yorktown was one of her escorts but that's all I remember.




Kushan04 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (11/22/2020 4:59:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude
MikmykWS (or anyone), do you have any info on the Sara's CVBG composition? Pretty sure USS Yorktown was one of her escorts but that's all I remember.


Went digging through my documents for El Dorado Canyon. Here's the proposed battlegroups for Attain Document III (late March 86). Interesting it looks like Coral Sea and Saratoga swapped escorts. The ones listed with Saratoga for ADIII are the ones listed with Coral Sea for EDC. I might need to go back and verify that for my EDC scenario.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/dkfYepK.jpg[/img]






Kushan04 -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (11/23/2020 3:37:47 AM)

I did some digging through documents and on [link=https://www.history.navy.mil/]Naval History and Heritage Command[/link. Stumbled upon it by accident the other day, looks like a great resource but it doesn't have everything. I wasn't able to find anything on Sara's escorts other then what I posted earlier. Maybe you'll have better luck.




BeirutDude -> RE: Operation El Dorado Canyon ? (11/26/2020 12:49:39 AM)

Kushan04, Thank you. Very Helpful! So one of the issues with El Dorado Canyon is the French lack of cooperation wasn't because of rampant Anti-Americanism, as many Conservatives love to claim, but the fact we left them hanging on Beirut Retaliation in 1983 (Personal note: I loved it when the French hit the Bekaa Valley and watched their ingress/exit from the BIA Control Tower!!!!). Also France was actively fighting Libya in Chad and they wanted to totally take out Libya with a regime change, not a single strike. I'm working on a scenario where the French convince the Reagan Administration for a larger, joint mission, but the U.S. convinces France to hit them with a force degradation operation short of regime change.

So would be French CVBG (FOCH most likely)
The Sara CVBG (doesn't exit the Med)
America and Coral Sea CVBG (As historical)
Wisconsin SAG
F-111s base out of Corsica

About a 3-4 day operation (after that I suspect munitions would run low).




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