RE: Between the Storms (Full Version)

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John 3rd -> RE: Between the Storms (7/7/2014 2:15:20 PM)

Understand completely. Still...starting with a pair of SS that have working TTs will be a nice Allied addition.

Will need a tender...




Terminus -> RE: Between the Storms (7/7/2014 2:23:12 PM)

HMAS Albatross was my choice. Originally a seaplane tender, she was traded to the RN to pay for HMAS Hobart. If we assume that Australia's economic situation is better, and that the RAN wants to play with subs, why not convert her from an AV to an AS? She's about the same age as the subs she'll be servicing.




Terminus -> RE: Between the Storms (7/7/2014 10:31:13 PM)

Here's the data I'll be using myself:


[image]local://upfiles/16369/13D84DC63227413FB11093401A26C207.jpg[/image]




John 3rd -> RE: Between the Storms (7/8/2014 12:12:17 AM)

We'll add all this to the Aussie OOB for Between the Storms and, perhaps, RA 7.0. Really like the ideas a bunch...

Juan just sent me his second draft on off-map bases and aircraft purchasing. Looks quite promising. This was our email exchange:

Hi John,

Here's a second draft of airgroups. This ones includes a few changes to the US groups along with the British ones. I remain rather uncertain as to what an acceptable price for these is, as that is probably the main factor in their usefulness.

Regarding the actual bases themselves - would you like me to get those done and send them to you, or perhaps in light of the airgroups still being WIP I should hold off on that, and you can get on with the rest of it while this stuff is worked out, and then I can put this all in at once afterwards?

Regards,
Juan





Juan,

I am all for using the Treaty Mod as an Ďexperimentí with this. Could we go with what you have and let a few games begin (Adm Nelson and I are going to play one) to get feedback. This way we can do a quick deployment of the new Mod and then get commentary...

It will take us a monthóprobablyóto get RA 7.0 and Between the Storms ready to go. You could spend that month refining and working as we get the new Mods finished.

What do you think?

John

PS Just printed your spreadsheet and will give it a good look over.










ny59giants -> RE: Between the Storms (7/8/2014 1:33:46 AM)

I would think the cost of buying out these air groups would have to be close to 15 days worth of PPs. More for 2e and 4e bombers. Since a regiment/brigade is around 600 points, shouldn't a fighter squadron cost around the same??




DOCUP -> RE: Between the Storms (7/8/2014 1:48:55 AM)

I like the idea of a small French presence at the beginning, and it gets bigger over time.  600 points for 25 fighters seems high to me, B29s yes 600 or more points.  It does need to cost though.




JuanG -> RE: Between the Storms (7/8/2014 2:56:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I would think the cost of buying out these air groups would have to be close to 15 days worth of PPs. More for 2e and 4e bombers. Since a regiment/brigade is around 600 points, shouldn't a fighter squadron cost around the same??


I've really struggled with this aspect to be honest.

On one hand, theyre only airframes, not actual airgroups/pilots. On the other hand, I do not think they should be a 'given' by any means, and should definately incur a cost.

Another factor is the most I can make each 'group' (ie. packet of aircraft) cost is 255PP (ie 5 days worth give or take).

Currently I'm working with fighters being in the 7-10PP range per airframe, with airframes in groups of 16-30 depending on when and where. This puts the price of most of those groups in the 120-250 range.

Medium bombers are a little more expensive, heavies (especially pre-44) notably so, with group sizes of 6-12 for the latter. Specialist craft like recon and patrol aircraft also come in smaller groups, though their prices are less than those for heavies.

I've also tried to account for overall availability of an airframe in how much it costs - extra B-17s in '42 are rare and expensive, as are P-38s and other craft with limited availability at the time (in the Pacific - many of these were prioritized to Europe).

Likewise, as the war goes on groups become cheaper, even for aircraft of better performance (A 16 aircraft P-40E unit in early '42 costs 140PP, or 8.75 per airframe, while a 24 aircraft P-40N1 unit costs 200PP, or 8.33 per airframe). As airgroups are not removed from these offmap bases, their has the effect of firstly building up a pool to draw upon if needed given the resources, and also of making later war groups offer more for the same cost, conveniently representing the better position the allies enjoyed as the war progressed in terms of equipment numbers.

As it stands there are;
130 groups for the USAAF, representing 2304 airframes, for a total cost of 24890PPs (498 days worth). The bulk of these arrive in between late '42 and early '44.
70 groups for the USN/MC, representing 1224 airframes, for a total cost of 11930PPs (239 days worth). Their arrival dates are similar to the USAAF groups.
50 groups for the RAF/FAA/IAF, representing 894 airframes, for a total cost of 8740PPs (175 days worth). A notable portion of these arrives mid-late '42, with the rest spread though the later years.
I have yet to finish the Commonwealth or Minors, but I expect these to be something like 35 groups and ~600 airframes and 15 groups and ~200 airframes respectively.

As I've said to John, this is really a shot in the dark, and I reckon a lot will depend on the allied player actually playing and the situation at hand - in some games an extra 20 F4F-4's in mid-42 may seem like a waste compared to other options, whereas in another it could be a bargain. The best way to find out is to actually try it.




ny59giants -> RE: Between the Storms (7/8/2014 10:26:05 AM)

I know one thing an Allied player like me will be doing is buy out these obsolete airframes to free up the P-38Es that start the game. Having a couple of P-38 groups will be worth the price. [;)]




John 3rd -> RE: Between the Storms (7/8/2014 1:51:24 PM)

I have told Juan to roll forward with this. In many ways we are incorporating bunches of new stuff within these three Mods: DB-C, Stacking Limits, JWE's new Aussie/NZ/Phil OOB, Off-Map Bases with Airframe buyout, and the Mods themselves. These should be pretty exciting to work with and I look forward to getting them rolling. All the work done by John and Juan is truly appreciated and we'll have to see just how much chaos is created by their delightful contributions.

Will wait for Juan to send the finished files back and then make the naval chances detailed in the last page of the Thread then this Mod is ready for play.

Once the Treaty Mod is good then we shift gears into making sure RA 7.0 is fully done then jump to combine them with BTS.

The Mods will be uploaded to the RA Site. Need to create new pages there for each new Mod and do some serious writing and descriptive work there.




Symon -> RE: Between the Storms (7/8/2014 6:42:49 PM)

Michael had some comments on the Babes air model in the War Room. I responded. No reply.

We look for interaction as much as you guys. In this particular instance we are need all the input we can get.

Just because we put out data, doesnít mean your thoughts/experiences arenít worthwhile, rather it means we take the issue seriously enough to address it with data in hopes it will spark some understanding and interaction.

I donít know what Michael thinks of the new Air paradigm. Thatís above my pay grade. But could you guys ccoule at least talk to us before you urinate on somethin, maybe?

Knockers up. Ciao JWE




John 3rd -> RE: Between the Storms (7/8/2014 9:57:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Michael had some comments on the Babes air model in the War Room. I responded. No reply.

We look for interaction as much as you guys. In this particular instance we are need all the input we can get.

Just because we put out data, doesnít mean your thoughts/experiences arenít worthwhile, rather it means we take the issue seriously enough to address it with data in hopes it will spark some understanding and interaction.

I donít know what Michael thinks of the new Air paradigm. Thatís above my pay grade. But could you guys ccoule at least talk to us before you urinate on somethin, maybe?

Knockers up. Ciao JWE



Have no idea what you speak of...




John 3rd -> RE: Between the Storms (7/9/2014 12:47:04 AM)

Juan is finishing up his off-map bases work and then I shall do final movement of wessels and aircraft then we are ready to launch Treaty 1.0 for play.





oldman45 -> RE: Between the Storms (7/9/2014 1:58:11 AM)

With breathless anticipation we await the launch!!




John 3rd -> RE: Between the Storms (7/13/2014 5:00:33 AM)

OK. We are IN BUSINESS! Juan has sent the files back for both Treaty and RA. Michael and I are looking them over tonight and tomorrow.

Juan & Michael: Could you Post your thoughts, reactions, and ideas here please?




ny59giants -> RE: Between the Storms (7/13/2014 10:54:21 AM)

I brief email exchange between Juan and me yesterday and early this morning.

quote:


Juan,

Just did a quick look at the work you did here for RA. I couldn't pull up the actual off map bases just north of San Diego. Do I need a custom pwhex file or a different map panel to do so?? I could get some info from the mouse over, but the bases don't actual show up. Since the cost to purchase the air groups is depended on the group's leader, could you adjust the cost to make certain airframe more expensive by decreasing the actual number of planes in each group??

I would eliminate the very old American fighters like the P-25 and 36 as I will buy one out to use to get some the P-38s from other groups that are restricted. Replace the P-38s with these older fighters.

Thanks,
Michael

Reply

Hi Michael,

1. This is a by product of how these bases are placed entirely into 'non-map' as opposed to 'on-map' or 'off-map' territory. There are three ways to pull up the groups;
a. Open the bases list, and as the reinforcement bases are titled (Base Name), they should always appear as the first 5.
b. Click the base on the map, and use the squadron icons in the bottom bar to go directly to a squadron.
c. Open the squadrons list, and the purchaseable squadrons should show at the top of the list due to their naming.

2. Yes, this is how the pricing is done. A heavy bomber group will often contain 8-12 airframes for the same price as a 24-32 fighter group. These can easily be adjusted later based on feedback as the only two variables are the leaders PP cost (capped at 255) and the number or airframes.

3. I'm on the fence about this. Personally as I see doing the aforementioned purchasing as gamey, I view the old fighters in Reserve groups as moreso being useful in allowing one to shuffle aircraft between 'real' groups. You are free to remove them if you wish by setting their delay to 9999 if they are a problem for you.

Regards,
Juan


Since I don't have a turn in my inbox, I'm going to look more closely to RA 7.0 this morning to make sure I've done all that I can and then forward anything to John 3rd.




John 3rd -> Treaty READY!?? (7/13/2014 2:44:59 PM)

I've downloaded the Mod Files from Juan for both the Treaty as well as RA. Michael will continue for a day or two to work RA while I tidy up Treaty.

Lew and I are going to start a Treaty Mod Campaign. Are there others who want to do some playtesting or browse through it some more?

Figure that I need about 1-2 hours of time to get everything finished on the Treaty Mod and it will be good to run. Need to put together a scenario description, do some placement changes--as we talked about on the previous page of this thread, and switch Vindictive over to the Kiwis. Air Art will be a mess for Melbourne and Vindictive but it will have to do for the moment.

Will Post when files are ready.

Any takers?




John 3rd -> HMNZS ???? (7/14/2014 4:52:43 AM)

The Vindictive is becoming a New Zealand ship. Which name works better the HMNZS Wellington or Auckland? Am open to other suggestions as well.




oldman45 -> RE: HMNZS ???? (7/14/2014 12:10:51 PM)

I would go with Wellington only because it sounds better. [;)] In the words of Sgt Provo, "it sings"




John 3rd -> RE: HMNZS ???? (7/14/2014 12:56:43 PM)

A classic Wayne movie line: "Provo's Privy!"

Thanks for the early morning laugh Sir.




oldman45 -> RE: HMNZS ???? (7/14/2014 1:27:06 PM)

I figured you would catch it. [:)]




John 3rd -> RE: HMNZS ???? (7/14/2014 2:24:46 PM)

Working my way down the list of 'to do's' with the Treaty Mod. Have 22 items needing addressing and am over halfway there. Solid progress.

Have created the Scouting Force and placed it between the Pensacola TF and the Chester TF. This is a FORMIDABLE TF: 2 BC, 2 CA, 2 CLV, and 6 DD. How 'bout that for something EXTRA!




John 3rd -> Cebu (7/14/2014 2:31:03 PM)

In this Mod Arc, it appears that Cebu will become a subsidiary of Manila for the Asiatic Fleet. We've moved and AS, AV, and 6 SS there for the Opening of the War. Additionally a small Base Force, some supply, and fuel are now there as well.




btd64 -> RE: Treaty READY!?? (7/14/2014 2:39:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I've downloaded the Mod Files from Juan for both the Treaty as well as RA. Michael will continue for a day or two to work RA while I tidy up Treaty.

Lew and I are going to start a Treaty Mod Campaign. Are there others who want to do some playtesting or browse through it some more?

Figure that I need about 1-2 hours of time to get everything finished on the Treaty Mod and it will be good to run. Need to put together a scenario description, do some placement changes--as we talked about on the previous page of this thread, and switch Vindictive over to the Kiwis. Air Art will be a mess for Melbourne and Vindictive but it will have to do for the moment.

Will Post when files are ready.

Any takers?


John, I have played the beginning of 45 a few times with the art and chems map. All looks good. Waiting for the next one.... PM me the files. I have time tomorrow. GP




oldman45 -> RE: Treaty READY!?? (7/14/2014 4:04:36 PM)

John, this mod does not use the extended map does it?




btd64 -> RE: Treaty READY!?? (7/14/2014 11:48:19 PM)

oldman45, I'm sure john will answer, but yes it uses the extended map. GP




John 3rd -> Treaty READY! (7/15/2014 2:22:55 PM)

Treaty Mod is complete. I spent time yesterday morning and last night going through and making little tweaks and catching small errors. Am going to ZIP all the files together and send them to our playtesters/checkers. Give this a few days then we'll shift over to RA 7.0.




John 3rd -> RE: Treaty READY! (7/15/2014 3:00:07 PM)

Have sent the Mod to playtesters so they can do a serious look-through. Will plan to release this by Friday.




John 3rd -> RE: Treaty READY! (7/15/2014 3:10:54 PM)

Changes made the last two days:

1. Transferred Vindictive to New Zealand and named her the HMNZS Wellington. Air Group now upgrades along the same lines as the Aussie Melbourne.
2. Moved the two Hong Kong DDs to Singers.
3. Cebu gains the USS Ely (sister of Langley) to go with an AS and 6 SS. Added supply and fuel to the base as well as an older squadron of Fighters.
4. FIXED Casablanca and Bogue Class CVE AA Issues.
5. Created the Scouting Fleet TF of BCs Ranger and Constellation, 2 CA, CLV's Charlotte and Jacksonville, and 6 DDs.
6. Moved CL Naka and DDs from Formosa to Cam Rahn Bay to provide escorts for Japanese CAVs and new CAs.
7. Changed Constitution Class 16" guns to MK 3 version as per Juan and JWE's specs.
8. Pulled BB Pennsylvania and have her arriving--damaged--on Dec 8th.
9. Damaged ships historically under repair: At PH--Cassin, Downes, and Shaw. At Manila--SS Seadragon and Sealion.
10. Concentrated the Japanese BBs at Hiroshima along with Hosho and Ibuki (sister to Hosho).
11. Disbanded TF 123/124 at Home Islands so the 56th and 2nd ID can be reloaded correctly.
12. Removed USS Mississippi from game to rflect Treaty Changes allowing the two BCs to added to US OOB.
13. Made sure the Lex and Ent have a pair of CAs for escorts.
14. Saratoga has an actual Battle Group on the West Coast to protect it when the CV sails.





John 3rd -> RE: Treaty READY! (7/20/2014 3:17:21 PM)

Just took a serious look at RA6.7 with JWEís work and he did a FANTASTIC job! Iíve got some work to do on the Japanese Naval LCUs but that appears to be it. Think a few hours of work should get RA 7.0 completed. Integrating 7.0 and Treaty into BTS should not be too rough. Think this can safely be accomplished in good time.

Juan: I am not touching Treaty until you get your work done. Keep us informed and then Iíll send RA over to you to import the Off-Base stuff. Should be the only time youíll have to do that because I shall copy RA 7.0 into a new folder to create Between the Storms.

Thanks for all the work team.

John




John 3rd -> RE: Treaty READY! (7/21/2014 6:29:57 AM)

GOOD news. I had some time to work tonight and got all of RA taken care of. Treaty is FINISHED and RA is now FINISHED. Have got to shift it so the art, scenario description, and other minor items are handled but RA 7.0 will be available in days.

This means that BTS shall be ready, perhaps, a day or two after that.

How about that??!!




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