Sad story, HMAS Perth being stripped by commercial salvagers (Full Version)

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f4migcap -> Sad story, HMAS Perth being stripped by commercial salvagers (12/14/2013 3:13:36 PM)

Sad story about commercial salvagers stripping the HMAS Perth, sunk in the Battle of Sundra Strait. I hope it can be stopped. And isn't the USS Houston nearby. Hope it hasn't been touched.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-13/outrage-as-warship-grave-stripped-by-salvagers/5156320




f4migcap -> also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/14/2013 4:05:41 PM)

Ok...these commercials evidently salvaged the Dutch Submarine O-16 which was sunk by mines on December 15, 1941 with only one survivor.

from same article
"Several salvage barges have been spotted in the area, and one was photographed in October dredging up the carcass of a Dutch submarine - the O-16 - which sank off the coast of Malaysia."

So what are they going to go after next, the USS Houston?




crsutton -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 12:23:18 AM)

Well, it is a bit sad but we have to remember that salvage of sunken ships has been around as long as ships have. There are thousands of ship with thousands of tragic stories behind them that have been salvaged over the last few millennia.




Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 1:04:18 AM)

Wrong title... should be
HMAS Perth: WWII warship grave stripped by savages

[:-]




Tom Hunter -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 1:49:27 AM)

Those are war graves, the governments involved are completely within their rights to stop the activity, which is not salvage, its grave robbing.




mind_messing -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 2:27:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Those are war graves, the governments involved are completely within their rights to stop the activity, which is not salvage, its grave robbing.


I disagree.

A fair comparison would be the removal of the dead from the battlefields of the First World War so that they can get a proper burial in a war cemetary and farmers can actually do something productive with the land. Except in this case the feild is a collection of valuable metal and there are probably no remains left to bury.

At the end of the day, the salvage of some small item, along the lines of the ships bell for a public memorial will be a far better memorial to the dead than a hulk of rusty steel at the bottom of the seabed that few will ever see.




Tom Hunter -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 2:55:06 AM)

@ mind_messing

I neither agree nor disagree, I'm just quoting the law. Though reading the story it seems the Australian govt has somehow neglected to designate the Perth a war grave. The UK, Germany and the US (among others) are very clear on their sunken warships being war graves, that has nothing to do with any of our personal opinions.




Lokasenna -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 4:01:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

@ mind_messing

I neither agree nor disagree, I'm just quoting the law. Though reading the story it seems the Australian govt has somehow neglected to designate the Perth a war grave. The UK, Germany and the US (among others) are very clear on their sunken warships being war graves, that has nothing to do with any of our personal opinions.


Can they designate it a war grave if it's outside their territorial waters? I'm not sure on the law here.


Also, I agree with mind_messing on the ship's bell. Far better memorial than a rusting hulk on the bottom of the ocean. If it can be done for any given ship, anyway.




Feltan -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 11:22:04 AM)

They can designate anything they want -- enforcing such a designation might get tricky if it is in the territorial waters of another country with whom relations are cool.

Regards,
Feltan




Symon -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 6:36:08 PM)

By International Maritime Law, military shipwrecks, remain under the jurisdiction of the national government that lost the ship (and its sucessors). If a nation is a member of the UN, they signed the IML treaty provisions. National governments are the governing authority for disposition of a wreck as a War Grave, subject to certain provisions. In the UK, this is governed by the 1986 Military Remains Act, In the US, it’s governed by whatever Congress thinks appropriate at the moment, regulated (not) by the 1987 Abandoned Shipwreck Act.

Even though a wreck site is designated as a War Grave, there are many opportunities for recovery. Recovery is not “salvage”, nor “derelict”, nor “jetsam”. Anyone may apply for permission to recover objects of a historical nature. These permissions are almost always granted so long as recovery does not disturb the grave site.

Nations may not unilaterally declare all their national wrecks as grave sites. They are required to “specifically” identify those ships and locations, such that they are specifically identifiable. Hey! otherwise Spain gets all the gold and silver and everything else that wreck divers find in the Florida Straits. Woof !!

A grave is a grave and must be respected as such. But is a ship’s bell a grave? Don’t think so. Bring up a historical artifact from a deep resting place, and display it as a memorial: “to them who is, from them who was”. That is righteous in my book.

I think it all depends on who’s thinking what, and who’s doing what to whom. Ciao. J




rsallen64 -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 6:59:07 PM)

If there's money to be made, there will be always be people that ignore common decency and respect.




Lokasenna -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 7:54:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

By International Maritime Law, military shipwrecks, remain under the jurisdiction of the national government that lost the ship (and its sucessors). If a nation is a member of the UN, they signed the IML treaty provisions. National governments are the governing authority for disposition of a wreck as a War Grave, subject to certain provisions. In the UK, this is governed by the 1986 Military Remains Act, In the US, it’s governed by whatever Congress thinks appropriate at the moment, regulated (not) by the 1987 Abandoned Shipwreck Act.

Even though a wreck site is designated as a War Grave, there are many opportunities for recovery. Recovery is not “salvage”, nor “derelict”, nor “jetsam”. Anyone may apply for permission to recover objects of a historical nature. These permissions are almost always granted so long as recovery does not disturb the grave site.

Nations may not unilaterally declare all their national wrecks as grave sites. They are required to “specifically” identify those ships and locations, such that they are specifically identifiable. Hey! otherwise Spain gets all the gold and silver and everything else that wreck divers find in the Florida Straits. Woof !!

A grave is a grave and must be respected as such. But is a ship’s bell a grave? Don’t think so. Bring up a historical artifact from a deep resting place, and display it as a memorial: “to them who is, from them who was”. That is righteous in my book.

I think it all depends on who’s thinking what, and who’s doing what to whom. Ciao. J



Right on.

Thanks for the info.




jcjordan -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 9:35:20 PM)

I not sure how the Aussie gov't takes to it but I know the USN would send a CVN battle group if they tried to go after the Houston for salvage.




mind_messing -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 9:42:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

I not sure how the Aussie gov't takes to it but I know the USN would send a CVN battle group if they tried to go after the Houston for salvage.


I very much doubt that the US government is willing to harm diplomatic over what is basically a rusted hulk. Just as the Austrailian government wasn't willing.

Such is the way the world works. If it makes you feel better to think that America would rattle the sabre over the infringment of a single wreck, then do so.




jcjordan -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 9:54:51 PM)

My point is that the USN is more possessive/protective over wrecks. You need to look no further than the a/c being recovered in areas like Lake Michigan where there's not a body involved at all yet they still retain/guard ownership of it. Yes they give permission to recover a/c wrecks if no known casualties are involved. In the case of Houston, I'd bet they would come down very hard on someone trying to salvage anything from it w/o expressed permission




tk208 -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 10:02:09 PM)

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.




witpqs -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/16/2013 10:18:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Doing things that are both wrong and stupid are not the fault of the one who raises the alarm.




mind_messing -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 1:03:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My point is that the USN is more possessive/protective over wrecks. You need to look no further than the a/c being recovered in areas like Lake Michigan where there's not a body involved at all yet they still retain/guard ownership of it. Yes they give permission to recover a/c wrecks if no known casualties are involved. In the case of Houston, I'd bet they would come down very hard on someone trying to salvage anything from it w/o expressed permission


Were I an American taxpayer, I'd object to my tax dollars being spent chasing down South-East Asian salvage operations.

Even if the USN wants to take a stance, they could complain to whatever government is responsible, and have them do nothing.

Or they could board and stop the salvage on some pretext, kicking off a diplomatic crisis, and at which point the Chinese swing in to play the good guy.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.


Yes, let's go and bomb some South-East Asians, to punish them for stealing the metal from our ships!!!

Good to see you approve of the American government illegal international spying operation. It frames your previous views rather nicely.




f4migcap -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 2:34:22 AM)

I don't have a problem fundamentally if they were just trying to get a ships bell, or wheel, to bring up and display at some memorial. But to dredge up a whole sub, like the Dutch O-16, so they could scrap it completely for metal, I have a little problem with that. I'm sure relatives of the Dutch sailors wouldn't be very happy either if they find out. I wonder what reaction we would have in this country if some country hauled up a complete US sub sunk in the war, just for its metal. I know it probably can't be stopped, its just kind of sickening.




mind_messing -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 2:51:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAK63

I don't have a problem fundamentally if they were just trying to get a ships bell, or wheel, to bring up and display at some memorial. But to dredge up a whole sub, like the Dutch O-16, so they could scrap it completely for metal, I have a little problem with that. I'm sure relatives of the Dutch sailors wouldn't be very happy either if they find out. I wonder what reaction we would have in this country if some country hauled up a complete US sub sunk in the war, just for its metal. I know it probably can't be stopped, its just kind of sickening.


So you feel the same way about the WW1 battlefields that were cleared of dead bodies and ordinance just so that some Belgian or French farmers could plant crops again to make a living?




Lokasenna -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 3:17:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAK63

I don't have a problem fundamentally if they were just trying to get a ships bell, or wheel, to bring up and display at some memorial. But to dredge up a whole sub, like the Dutch O-16, so they could scrap it completely for metal, I have a little problem with that. I'm sure relatives of the Dutch sailors wouldn't be very happy either if they find out. I wonder what reaction we would have in this country if some country hauled up a complete US sub sunk in the war, just for its metal. I know it probably can't be stopped, its just kind of sickening.


So you feel the same way about the WW1 battlefields that were cleared of dead bodies and ordinance just so that some Belgian or French farmers could plant crops again to make a living?


There's a sentimental difference, I think. Probably in that the remains of the folks who died actually got "cleared away" and sent home for burial. Those battlefields aren't war graves.

The sunken ships are. Even if no actual remains are still there. Admittedly, from my perspective, that makes things a little hazy, but I can still sympathize with the point. Just as I can sympathize with the idea that there are no bodies left... I think I lean a bit farther towards Still A War Grave, though.




f4migcap -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 3:56:00 AM)

I think there is a difference. In almost all wars the land battles are fought on land being used by people to make a living, be it a farm, town, factory,..etc., before the battle. After the battles, the fallen were buried which I think most feel is the most respectful thing to do. The ordinance is cleared away as best as possible and the land is used again to make a living. I've seen alot of World War I documentaries that show present day farms in Europe that were once battlefields and marvel at how the land recovered from things like the massive artillery bombardments that happened.

In the case of the Dutch submarine, it was sunk off Malaysia on December 15 with 41 sailors going down with it, after it hit a mine. It wasn't a navigation hazard so it wasn't in the way of anybody. In almost all cases like this the sunken warship is looked at as a 'coffin' for the 41 sailors and is usually looked at as a war grave. also, it is possible that human remains could still exist, I've seen photos and documentary's of dives on other sunken ships in the Pacific from from World War 2 and remains were found on occasion.

As I said, I know it can't be stopped and I'm not advocating picking any fights over this. I just wish they left the sub where it was and honored it as a war grave. I'm sure if a fleet of salvage barges went to the location of the HMS Hood and started bringing it up in big pieces to sell to the nearest scrap merchant people in England wouldn't be too happy.




tk208 -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 6:00:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My point is that the USN is more possessive/protective over wrecks. You need to look no further than the a/c being recovered in areas like Lake Michigan where there's not a body involved at all yet they still retain/guard ownership of it. Yes they give permission to recover a/c wrecks if no known casualties are involved. In the case of Houston, I'd bet they would come down very hard on someone trying to salvage anything from it w/o expressed permission


Were I an American taxpayer, I'd object to my tax dollars being spent chasing down South-East Asian salvage operations.

Even if the USN wants to take a stance, they could complain to whatever government is responsible, and have them do nothing.

Or they could board and stop the salvage on some pretext, kicking off a diplomatic crisis, and at which point the Chinese swing in to play the good guy.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.


Yes, let's go and bomb some South-East Asians, to punish them for stealing the metal from our ships!!!

Good to see you approve of the American government illegal international spying operation. It frames your previous views rather nicely.


Umm I don't really know what post you were reading mate but it sure as hell wasn't mine. "Showing a bit of spine" does not mean bomb some South East Asian country and I'm pretty sure I never said I approved of how the yanks get their Intel just that it was their leak that caused problems for our Govt. hence the lack of response to the "salvage" operation.

Also refresh my memory as to what my previous views were? Fairly sure this is the only comment I've made on the subject.

Maybe your user name gives a hint or two [8|]





tk208 -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 6:16:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Doing things that are both wrong and stupid are not the fault of the one who raises the alarm.


Not at all but how can we tell the difference between wrong and stupid and a legitimate security threat?

None of us here can make that call because none of us know what really goes on behind closed doors and what motivates Intelligence Agencies worldwide to collect different types of Intel.




CT Grognard -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 7:34:37 AM)

There is a fantastic article on this very topic by Jason Harris from the University of Miami:

http://mainelaw.maine.edu/academics/oclj/pdf/vol07_1/vol7_oclj-75.pdf




tk208 -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 7:59:30 AM)

Getting 404 error with that link




CT Grognard -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 8:28:03 AM)

Oops, fixed:

http://mainelaw.maine.edu/academics/oclj/pdf/vol07_1/vol7_oclj_75.pdf




tk208 -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 12:44:06 PM)

Cheers




mind_messing -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 1:33:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAK63

I don't have a problem fundamentally if they were just trying to get a ships bell, or wheel, to bring up and display at some memorial. But to dredge up a whole sub, like the Dutch O-16, so they could scrap it completely for metal, I have a little problem with that. I'm sure relatives of the Dutch sailors wouldn't be very happy either if they find out. I wonder what reaction we would have in this country if some country hauled up a complete US sub sunk in the war, just for its metal. I know it probably can't be stopped, its just kind of sickening.


So you feel the same way about the WW1 battlefields that were cleared of dead bodies and ordinance just so that some Belgian or French farmers could plant crops again to make a living?


There's a sentimental difference, I think. Probably in that the remains of the folks who died actually got "cleared away" and sent home for burial. Those battlefields aren't war graves.

The sunken ships are. Even if no actual remains are still there. Admittedly, from my perspective, that makes things a little hazy, but I can still sympathize with the point. Just as I can sympathize with the idea that there are no bodies left... I think I lean a bit farther towards Still A War Grave, though.


Without a doubt there are farmers in France and Flanders growing crops over the bodies of dead soldiers from the First World War, yet there's no great cry about their bodies not being respected. Granted, there may be a sentimental difference, but I think it remains a fair pratical comparison.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My point is that the USN is more possessive/protective over wrecks. You need to look no further than the a/c being recovered in areas like Lake Michigan where there's not a body involved at all yet they still retain/guard ownership of it. Yes they give permission to recover a/c wrecks if no known casualties are involved. In the case of Houston, I'd bet they would come down very hard on someone trying to salvage anything from it w/o expressed permission


Were I an American taxpayer, I'd object to my tax dollars being spent chasing down South-East Asian salvage operations.

Even if the USN wants to take a stance, they could complain to whatever government is responsible, and have them do nothing.

Or they could board and stop the salvage on some pretext, kicking off a diplomatic crisis, and at which point the Chinese swing in to play the good guy.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.


Yes, let's go and bomb some South-East Asians, to punish them for stealing the metal from our ships!!!

Good to see you approve of the American government illegal international spying operation. It frames your previous views rather nicely.


Umm I don't really know what post you were reading mate but it sure as hell wasn't mine. "Showing a bit of spine" does not mean bomb some South East Asian country and I'm pretty sure I never said I approved of how the yanks get their Intel just that it was their leak that caused problems for our Govt. hence the lack of response to the "salvage" operation.

Also refresh my memory as to what my previous views were? Fairly sure this is the only comment I've made on the subject.

Maybe your user name gives a hint or two [8|]





Your previous views were how you wished America would send a carrier battle group to go rattle the sabre in the face of some South-East Asians for having the nerve to try to make a living off sunken American ships.

Combined with your disaproval of Snowden, it gives me a pretty good idea as to how you view the world.


On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.




witpqs -> RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged (12/17/2013 2:19:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Doing things that are both wrong and stupid are not the fault of the one who raises the alarm.


Not at all but how can we tell the difference between wrong and stupid and a legitimate security threat?

None of us here can make that call because none of us know what really goes on behind closed doors and what motivates Intelligence Agencies worldwide to collect different types of Intel.

Better not (for the forum's sake) to go too far down that path of discussion. It is a call that we must make, regardless of the inherent lack of perfection. [8D]




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