Immersion? (Full Version)

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wodin -> Immersion? (10/30/2013 11:34:57 PM)

I always find I struggle with many games at this scale with immersion. This seems to have LOADS of chrome..which I presume helps with this aspect. So how immersive is the game compared to other games of similar scale.




WIF_Killzone -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 12:06:00 AM)

Total and absolute, you will not be disappointed.




WIF_Killzone -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 12:09:47 AM)

Spoke to soon, I consider some of the optional rules chrome, primarily because they didn't exist when I played. The rest, is pure gold and based on the number of posts you have made recently, you are already hooked, ha. Your will be getting very little sleep soon.




bo -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 12:24:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I always find I struggle with many games at this scale with immersion. This seems to have LOADS of chrome..which I presume helps with this aspect. So how immersive is the game compared to other games of similar scale.


If you were not a higher rank than me I would chew you out [:D] it might be the first game that you have ever played that you have to think, the question might be what do I do next to win this game. I dont believe winning or losing has anything to do with the enjoyment of this game.

Even though I have to admit, one game I was crushing the CW [Rommel was the commander] in North Africa and was ready to wipe out all that was left of CW forces when I got 4 bad [bad for me] die rolls in a row, it stopped me dead in my tracks [pun] did I get upset hell no, I just turned off the computer and did not do a game save and the next day Rommels panzers were hell on wheels errr tracks. There is some perks playing solo Matrix Legion of Merit Wodin. [;)]

There are 81 optional rules in the game if all are entered into the first release. [some are minor rules, very little effect on game balance] What strikes me most about this game is a few of the optional rules can change the personality of this game from a sweet little kitty cat of a game into a roaring raging lion kind of game [:(]

Bo




gridley -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 12:52:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I always find I struggle with many games at this scale with immersion. This seems to have LOADS of chrome..which I presume helps with this aspect. So how immersive is the game compared to other games of similar scale.


If you have tried other games of this scale and thought they were ok...you will love this game. It doesn't have some of the glitz like Corps gaining experience, Leaders, etc...that you may like.

But you will find it excels in how everything...fits. You may not even notice at first, but someone with your gaming experience will soon see that the rules are superb.

Luck also plays a fairly large part in the games...but this is also one of the great things about the game. As the Axis, everything could be going your way, you are unstoppable. Then all of a sudden weather or short turns throw your strategy out the window and you have to come up with a plan b.

I think any Grand Strategy Wargamer will either like or love this game...you can buy it with confidence that you will not regret your purchase.









Mynok -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 1:38:29 AM)


Define immersion. Frankly I get more 'immersed' i.e. feeling like I'm 'in the game' from MMO's or other such games. WiF isn't roleplaying. Its more like sword play or football or any other competitive sport: bring your tools and see if they get you a victory.

The *great* thing about this game is how realistically capable and constrained the tools are. That's the WiF secret.




SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 2:59:36 AM)

I have been telling my friends that might be interested in playing this the following:

This game catches the 'flavor' of the different facets of the war.

By this, I mean that the decisions you are making have the feel of what those decisions might have been to the highest echelons of command.

The land combat has the same familiar feel of overrun, blitz, and attrition that defines that part of the war. Combined with the importance of keeping supply lines open (a face-down out of supply unit that is attacked is TOAST), the ability to reorganize troops with an HQ (and make that final push at much cost), and the limited actions in non land impulses give the impression that you are faced with the same decisions the Generals might have agonized over.

The air combat, while stylized, give you some real decisions in economy of force that have to be experienced to be believed. How many fighters do I send to defend / clear a path? How many land air should I send to be sure? Can I force my opponent to commit air assets when this is only a diversion to the upcoming main battle? These things have the possibility of making the Battle of Britain come alive!

The Naval portion of the game handles the idea of patrolling fleets in a way I had never experienced before. Choosing which box to put units into (i.e. how much time they spend patrolling the area) makes for some interesting possibilities. A mad dash to strategically redeploy fleets over two impulses feels and behaves different than a patrol which is yet different from a strike force.

Choosing between Land / Air / Naval / Combined impulses is like spending time at the Craps table. Often it will be the wrong bet at the wrong time. Only the dice will tell. Nevertheless, with a determined and well thought out plan, these things can be coordinated.

Planning your builds out several turns in advance in order to get the ramping correct becomes almost a game within itself. As Germany ramps up submarine production, the CW must take note and perhaps change some of their builds to light ships for ASW. Is Germany going to prosecute the convoys in earnest or are they trying to get CW to lose the benefit of the ramp up in fighters and bomb them into the 1800s?

Understanding that sometimes the threat of doing one of two or three things is more debilitating to the enemy than actually doing one thing makes the game even more fun. Every time you commit to a plan, there is a chance that it will open the door to your opponent to throw a wrench in the works.

The big green monster (aka the USA) has to balance between the two major Axis powers. Preparing for war in one theater without some care to the other can figuratively break your back. With the time from conception to launch for the largest naval units consuming 1/3 of the game, these are decisions that become delicate. Too many CVs will take care of Japan, but how much good will they do you to force Germany to pull units off of the Eastern Front to defend Fortress Europa?

Do you have enough transports to throw the D-Day assault? How much did losing 2 of them to subs during transit hurt?

These are the kinds of things that I feel give this game its 'flavor'. To me, that feels as much like immersion that a turn based game can be.



Furthermore, I certainly hope that this is a commercial success so that its sister game, Days Of Decision, can be integrated into it. As with all games, we are presented with the situation at the beginning of some interesting battle, campaign, or war. With Days Of Decision, the party starts almost 4 years earlier in January 1936. This is before the Anschluss, before the Soviet Pact, before the purge, and early enough to complete the Maginot line. "What if" becomes "lets see".

I am getting excited... I NEED THIS GAME!!!!!





Aurelian -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 4:18:48 AM)

The only game I ever got immersed in was Half-Life. A head crab came out of nowhere and I actually was startled. Never happened in any other game before or since'

Guess I like being aware of what's going on around me.




Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 4:34:53 AM)

One game that immersed me fully was Achtung Panzer Operation Star. I sat there at eye level during a night mission hearing the tanks and infantry come in. Flares started flying into the air and all hell broke loose.

One unbelievable game that I haven't played in too long.

Awesome In-Game Screens

Check out the screen that bairdlander put up post #94




wodin -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 2:12:24 PM)

I suppose immersion with a wargame is that it makes me feel that there is a War going on and it feels historical i.e feels like it's WW2. I find tactical games more my bag because I get immersed more. Panzer Corps doesn't immerse me at all..feels like it could be any time and more like a Chess game or playing Rock paper Scissor with pretty graphics. I suppose anything upto Coy scale is normally my thing as I can picture in my head what a coy looks like and it's relative strength. Thats why I can struggle with games above Coy scale. Decisive Campaigns Case Blue is an exception and so was WW1Gold.




warspite1 -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 3:14:46 PM)

wodin I know you prefer tactical games and have a hard-on for WWI so I suspect MWIF is going to be a tough one to crack for you [;)]

However, I think this game really immerses the player. There is just so much going on (in a fun rather than tedious way) and making sure you have long term, but flexible plans, having the right units in the right place (get the Mosy and the Black Widow into the Pacific - not much point point the 3-range Hurricane being there), having the right build strategy etc (Gearing limits mean you cannot turn on and off like a tap)is really engrossing.

If you know your history - and I suspect you do - then yes I agree, the Chrome really helps. You send ships (that you know) into battle - not vague fleet counters, the aircraft types are individual so you attack/defend with Hurricanes and Spitfires - not generic fighters. Whilst some land units are not real life, you get to use some really famous formations - the WDF, XXX Corps, 43rd Wessex Division etc.

The whole game you are battling your opponent, trying to put him off balance, come up with surprises every now and then. But you are also juggling the weather, turn length, the dice god, what units will come out of the hat - please please let me get the high value, white print armour units - Oh great...its the Fairey Battle....

Oh yes, this game is immersive [:)]




brian brian -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 5:03:11 PM)

as for the "Chrome" question - a neat thing about WiF is that you can choose to increase the Chrome through the use of the optional rules, and can thus dial the level of Chrome up or down somewhat.




warspite1 -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 6:54:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

wodin I know you prefer tactical games and have a hard-on for WWI so I suspect MWIF is going to be a tough one to crack for you [;)]

However, I think this game really immerses the player. There is just so much going on (in a fun rather than tedious way) and making sure you have long term, but flexible plans, having the right units in the right place (get the Mosy and the Black Widow into the Pacific - not much point point the 3-range Hurricane being there), having the right build strategy etc (Gearing limits mean you cannot turn on and off like a tap)is really engrossing.

If you know your history - and I suspect you do - then yes I agree, the Chrome really helps. You send ships (that you know) into battle - not vague fleet counters, the aircraft types are individual so you attack/defend with Hurricanes and Spitfires - not generic fighters. Whilst some land units are not real life, you get to use some really famous formations - the WDF, XXX Corps, 43rd Wessex Division etc.

The whole game you are battling your opponent, trying to put him off balance, come up with surprises every now and then. But you are also juggling the weather, turn length, the dice god, what units will come out of the hat - please please let me get the high value, white print armour units - Oh great...its the Fairey Battle....

Oh yes, this game is immersive [:)]
warspite1

Sorry - just to be clear for newcomers to the game - there are separate pools for various unit types you try and build.

So in the above, they were two separate scenarios - getting a Fairey Battle was not instead of an armour unit, but instead of a better quality aircraft of the same type [:)]




wodin -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 8:44:37 PM)

I always enjoy chrome..so I don't see it as a negative if thats how it came across.

The passion of the boardgame players is what has me interested in this more than anything else. It must have something I think to myself for them to be so into the boardgame.


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

as for the "Chrome" question - a neat thing about WiF is that you can choose to increase the Chrome through the use of the optional rules, and can thus dial the level of Chrome up or down somewhat.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 9:20:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I always enjoy chrome..so I don't see it as a negative if thats how it came across.

The passion of the boardgame players is what has me interested in this more than anything else. It must have something I think to myself for them to be so into the boardgame.


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

as for the "Chrome" question - a neat thing about WiF is that you can choose to increase the Chrome through the use of the optional rules, and can thus dial the level of Chrome up or down somewhat.


Every one of the 8 major powers plays differently. There are marked differences in their geography (terrain, overseas possessions), force pools (air, land, and naval), production capabilities, and to some degree, when they become involved in the war.

The randomness of the starting forces isn't dramatically different from game to game, but there is enough variation to prevent players from designing 'perfect' first moves, etc. The die rolls and other randomized events (e.g., drawing markers for US entry, appearance of partisans) force the players to roll with the punches, and reward those who can exploit a good break.

What to do, what to do? That question is omnipresent in WIF. Some stuff is pretty obvious, when you are following through on a previously made major commitment (e.g., Germany going to war with Russia). But for the most part, the player has several good choices available and has to choose between them.

The result is a game where you always feel you might have done better. That you didn't foresee all that you should have. That you could have used your forces differently and really taught your opponent how the game should be played.[8D]




wodin -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 9:48:05 PM)

Thanks for the info.




DSWargamer -> RE: Immersion? (10/31/2013 10:32:47 PM)

One person's immersion is another's deadly dull.

I can get completely lost in a game of ASL and actually hear the sounds of battle just looking at the game.

I get the same effect with A3R and WiF will be no different even if on a computer.

I get absolutely nothing from real time click fests, and don't really care for the frantic pace of even pausable designs.

Shooters look and feel too much like 1980s arcade games, and MMOs simply don't seem to have any realism for me.

The controls though in a game need to be very well thought out. Because if all of my attention is spent on keeping track of menus, then it detracts from keeping track of the game itself. And as such, I have not as yet found any scale of simulation that is better than another. I have seen hard to play squad tactical and hard to play operational. Hard to play meaning hard to control the functions, not hard to actually succeed in the game.

So far Strategic Command 1 and Battle Academy are clearly the best games for controls I have experienced.




SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: Immersion? (11/1/2013 12:40:18 AM)

The original Quake got me in much the same way. Two spots in the first chapter gave me the willies.

Also, there was a game called Gabriel Knight. The box said "for the first time we have experienced real fear while playing a computer game." I thought 'Yeah - Right'. During play, I got to one point in mid game and was shaken enough that I never went back to it.... My wife quit at the exact same spot.

Ahhhh just think what can be done in that genre with Occulus Rift!




Titan -> RE: Immersion? (11/1/2013 8:37:10 AM)

Wow... this sounds like me




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