apd1004 -> RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues (11/11/2013 5:40:39 PM)
[UPDATED DB v440]
I have an issue with the ZSU-23-4 in the database, and the GUN DISH radar as well. As far as I know, it is the same entry in DB3K as CWDB (maybe different entry #?).
In DB3K the GUN DISH radar is listed as an onboard sensor on the ZSU-23-4 (#908) under the mounts/stores/weapons listing, but GUN DISH also has a separate listing as a "mobile vehicle" (#1248). After much research I have found no references of the GUN DISH being used or mounted anywhere other than on a ZSU-23-4. As far as I can tell, the GUN DISH radar was the fire control radar for the ZSU-23-4 exclusively and it was also capable of search and acquisition and had a 20km range.
I have done some testing and discovered that the vanilla ZSU-23-4 when firing at a target has only a 5% base probability of hit. Compare this to the M163 VADS which has a 70% base probability to hit. The M163 VADS had a range-only radar not tied to the fire control system like the GUN DISH is on the ZSU-23-4. True, the M163 is a rotary cannon with 3000rpm, but the ZSU-23-4 had four 23mm liquid cooled cannons capable of 800-1000rpm on each gun, so as far as sustained rate of fire the ZSU-23-4 can actually put more lead downrange than the Vulcan, so RPM should not be a differentiating factor between the two systems. The ZSU-23-4 used the GUN DISH to provide a firing solution to the ballistic computer which would then lay the powered & stabilized turret and guns to provide automatic lead for the gunner. In short, I think the ZSU-23-4 base probability of hit is way too low and the M163 is way too high. They should probably both be somewhere in the 30-50% range, with the ZSU being in the upper zone and the Vulcan being in the lower zone of that percentage spread.
During the same tests I also discovered that the vanilla ZSU-23-4 was not detecting aircraft with anything other than Mk1 Eyeball and gave off no radar signature, even with the GUN DISH active. The M163 does give off a radar signature and does not detect aircraft, which is appropriate for a range-only radar.
When placing a stand-alone GUN DISH, it behaves the way I would expect the one mounted on the ZSU-23-4 to behave, and that is it has a 10nm (should be 12nm) air radar circle and it does detect aircraft and gives off a radar signature. When I removed the internal GUN DISH sensor from the ZSU-23-4 and added the standalone version, I got the ZSU-23-4 that I wanted to see except that the PH was still 5%.
I also believe that the gun range on the ZSU-23-4 is a bit short as is the M163 Vulcan. My references show ZSU-23-4 having a tactical AA range of 2500m (1.35nm) and the Vulcan at 2000m (1.07nm). I would be ok with 1.2nm for the ZSU and 1.0nm for the Vulcan. It should also be able to be used against ground targets.
I'm also wondering about manually aimed AA guns having a base PH of 1%, but that will require more testing and can be in another thread. I just don't agree that a ZU-23 towed AA gun only has a 1% chance to hit a UH-1 Huey flying straight and level.
Summary of proposed changes:
-Remove #1248 (GUN DISH radar) from DB3K as a standalone unit
-Install the sensor data from #1248 onto the ZSU-23-4 (#908) i.e. - put the GUN DISH on the ZSU so that it actually works right
-Increase range on all Soviet 23mm AA guns (ZU-23 and ZSU-23-4) to 1.2nm
-Increase range of GUN DISH radar to 12nm.
-Increase 23mm ZSU-23-4 burst base PH to 50% (#1844)
-Decrease 20mm/85 Vulcan burst base PH from 70% to 30% (#1836)
-Increase range of 20mm/85 Vulcan to 1nm
-Allow both weapons to engage ground targets
Anti-aircraft ZSU-23-4 Shilka (Translated from Russian). Accessed November 11, 2013. armyinrussian.narod.ru/suhoputnie/shilka.htm
FM 100-2-3. Washington D.C.: Headquarters, Department of the Army, 1991