RE: Pricing (Full Version)

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tgb -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 7:36:35 AM)

Erik:

I get your good intentions vis a vis Ageod, but they mean nothing when you price a title beyond the amount people are willing to pay for it.




wilecki -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 7:44:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

1. We set the price for release on Matrix and Slitherine based on the same price AGEOD had been charging through their online store. We matched their price, we did not exceed it. That's the part of the price-matching which I was referring to earlier. Per our pricing, if this were a new release this would be more like a $40 or $50 game, but we matched the existing price for the AGEOD store.



Hi Erik,

Will I still be able to buy from AGEOD store for prices including VAT in the future as I've been able to do before? To me as an European it's a matter of 21% extra if I buy it from here for the same 25$ "asking" price..





Hanal -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 9:00:55 AM)

Personally I will always be willing to pay a bit more to Matrix just so that I can avoid using any internet connected install services.




IainMcNeil -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 9:39:49 AM)

Hi guys,

the simple answer is if you don't like the price don't buy it. NO hard feelings. Feel free to let us know but it doesn't help to have a prolonged argument about why the prices are what they are. We know we're doing what is best for the game based on years of data and we can't share the data with you and explain why we are right. We're regularly told we're wrong but we know we are not, as nobody has more data on this market than us. One example is Battle Academy on iPad. We were told by everyone, I mean everyone in the industry and consumers that the price of $20 was way too high. We stuck with what we thought best and BA is now one of the most successful strategy games in the app store. #1 in 21 countries if I remember correctly, though after a year it has dropped down a bit :)

Can we move on from the price discussion and talk about the game!

Thanks!




Anguille -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 9:51:24 AM)

So when will you release the DLC's, when can we expect a new update and will there be another DLC/addon?




IainMcNeil -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:00:23 AM)

For the last few months the team have been working on Rise of Prussia Gold alongside ACW II. This will be the first update for one of the back catalogue games. There are a number of other projects in progress at Ageod so expect a lot more from them in the coming months and years.




Anguille -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:07:25 AM)

Thanks...but i meant for Vainglory of Nations (btw...can't you put the correct name of the game again?)




IainMcNeil -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 11:14:19 AM)

It is not currently being worked on, but there is a plan to do an update when time allows. Realistically that will be after ACW II which is due July/August.




Plainian -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 7:18:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

1. We set the price for release on Matrix and Slitherine based on the same price AGEOD had been charging through their online store. We matched their price, we did not exceed it. That's the part of the price-matching which I was referring to earlier. Per our pricing, if this were a new release this would be more like a $40 or $50 game, but we matched the existing price for the AGEOD store.

2. The strategy that Paradox was pursuing with the AGEOD titles was indeed getting them out to many, many distributors and they were being sold at much lower prices in many of those places. We completely understand why this looks like a positive thing from the customer's perspective. The problem is, this was actually hurting AGEOD - the result of all that activity and low prices meant that they were not making enough revenue. Our goal is to allow AGEOD to thrive and develop games for a long time to come. Those revenues are not now going to us or to AGEOD in all cases - we're still finding out about some of the places where the games were previously sent and working out what to do. We will honor and support all sales through any distributor, but if your interest is in supporting us or AGEOD please realize that purchasing from the AGEOD, Matrix or Slitherine stores is the best way to support future development.

3. The main reason for our pricing is to make sure that the developers within this niche, who make the kinds of games we all like to play, remain active and financially viable. It is our job as a publisher (and a developer as well) to make money for them and for us, which leads to the virtuous cycle where those games we all enjoy continue to get made. We have a lot of data, including data from AGEOD, that supports this pricing strategy as the best one for the health of this niche.

4. At $24.99 Pride of Nations is still very good value for the gaming dollar.

Regards,

- Erik



Ok last word on this because clearly no one is listening.

1. Thats false. Price at Ageod was 15.99 yesterday. Now its 17.99. Next week I assume it will be 21.59 to match Matrix?

2 and 3. I have no problems with this view. I actually support it.

4. Yes it is.... if you are paying in Dollars. You won't let me pay in Dollars? Instead I must use an exchange rate which bears no reality with whats happening in the real world.

The bottom line is a game which was made and distributed in Europe at reasonable prices has now been hijacked and UK buyers must pay inflated prices.
I really dread to see what price AACW 2 will be! I'm pretty sure that Ageod would have priced it in the 19.99 range......we can kiss that goodbye now.




rodney727 -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 7:25:26 PM)

As I thought...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

It is not currently being worked on, but there is a plan to do an update when time allows. Realistically that will be after ACW II which is due July/August.





rodney727 -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 7:37:36 PM)

Just frustrated with you guys right now. Sure I love BA and if you remember right when you first announced this game I told you it would be a huge success despite what many "old time" member said about this in the forum. Panzer corps if indeed you ever do release it to the iPad will blow BA out of the water and make you a huge amount of money. "We do not put new games on sale". Well this is nonsense really. Lets offer 30% off on all BA dcls because we messed up the launch of your new DCL. This still agitates me. And don't even get me started about your infamous Easter egg sale. I wonder sometimes if this is a company or a circus hard to tell at times. While "it's not my job" excuse may save you from time to time it gets old real fast.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Hi guys,

the simple answer is if you don't like the price don't buy it. NO hard feelings. Feel free to let us know but it doesn't help to have a prolonged argument about why the prices are what they are. We know we're doing what is best for the game based on years of data and we can't share the data with you and explain why we are right. We're regularly told we're wrong but we know we are not, as nobody has more data on this market than us. One example is Battle Academy on iPad. We were told by everyone, I mean everyone in the industry and consumers that the price of $20 was way too high. We stuck with what we thought best and BA is now one of the most successful strategy games in the app store. #1 in 21 countries if I remember correctly, though after a year it has dropped down a bit :)

Can we move on from the price discussion and talk about the game!

Thanks!





italiamedio -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 9:29:38 PM)

I'm gonna jump in here and get in on this conversation because I'm with rogo727 on this one.
btw I think you mean DLC and not DCL?

I've enjoyed your products for a long time and I'd like to clarify that raising the price after you've purchased the rights of a product, and raising the price of that product on other sites, might be legal business procedure but you will lose customers in the long run. Its a form of bait and switch, in a way.

A three year old game and the price increases just because the top honchos want to get their dime back? Come on. If the game was a classic I'd agree, but it's not even old enough to be a classic, and it also lacks the renown for fitting in that category.

rogo makes a few good solid points here, about marketing decisions. Who is making the decisions here? Are they knowledgeable in business management and marketing knowledge? It seems like you guys have a handicap in the marketing department.
Just my opinion.




italiamedio -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 9:32:33 PM)

And please don't use the BA mobile game launch success as an example. You got lucky.

Unfortunately, as most business owners and managers know, the business market isn't always that forgiving. Luck comes around and goes around.




Twotribes -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 9:55:30 PM)

The game is clearly worth more then a one time sale price. I do not see the problem. 25 dollars is a fair price for this game. Those complaining, especially those that already own the game, can just ignore the price offered by matrix. You don't want to pay, don't buy.

I haven't bought this yet because I don't like AGEODs system of how games work. I have several of their games and none of them are intuitive or easy to work. That may change as the period interests me.




italiamedio -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:10:45 PM)

You are correct, and that seems to be the very foundation of our anger. We don't have to buy it if we don't want to. That's just fine! But it's ruining the developers and hurting the progress of any future games that may be in the making.

You see, it seems the leaders of the business decisions are squeezing all the sentimental feelings of old grogs to the last dime, and their using those sentiments to make a buck.

I don't like it. And I'll be the first to say it and ensure everyone hears what seems to be going on here.


Sure, don't buy the game. Buy it illegally from another store? Or perhaps, god forbid Christ oh Lord, even pirate it?
What are our options now? The marketing department at Matrix seems to be ruining the wargaming industry. Over what? A dime. These developers are the ones we should all be sorry for.

Just my thoughts.




FeurerKrieg -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:14:00 PM)

This is interesting. Call me a yes man if you like, but I really don't get all the fuss.

Matrix sells the game at a given price. If you don't want to pay it, don't buy it. Maybe a post that says "I would like to get this game, but I wouldn't pay more than $10" is good feedback. Then move on and buy something else that you think is priced fairly.

We all have different values for these games. Hell, I'd have paid $300 for WITP AE if I had to. On the other hand, I have a number of Matrix games that I have picked up on sale here at the Matrix site that I haven't even opened yet - but I bought them because they were on sale.

Things go out of print sometimes - video games are no different. Plenty of old 8-bit cartridge games that go for pretty high prices on ebay because you can't buy them anywhere else.




rodney727 -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:20:15 PM)

It's not just their marketing department. While it is true in college I have taken several marketing classes in the UK I am wondering if the teach just the opposite of what I've learned. From what I can tell they have NO customer service skills at all in fact they have no customer service director other than Erik and mr I or mr P and it really shows. For example the Easter egg sale. Need I say more? Because I can. If they had ANYONE. With retail expericence at the re-launch of this three and and half year old game he or she would have said "hey guys wait a minute". For example the head of the American side admitted that no they did not realize that this game was being sold for under two bucks in the states should tell you that I'm right about this. While they say they know what they are doing it makes you wonder at times.
quote:

ORIGINAL: italiamedio

I'm gonna jump in here and get in on this conversation because I'm with rogo727 on this one.
btw I think you mean DLC and not DCL?

I've enjoyed your products for a long time and I'd like to clarify that raising the price after you've purchased the rights of a product, and raising the price of that product on other sites, might be legal business procedure but you will lose customers in the long run. Its a form of bait and switch, in a way.

A three year old game and the price increases just because the top honchos want to get their dime back? Come on. If the game was a classic I'd agree, but it's not even old enough to be a classic, and it also lacks the renown for fitting in that category.

rogo makes a few good solid points here, about marketing decisions. Who is making the decisions here? Are they knowledgeable in business management and marketing knowledge? It seems like you guys have a handicap in the marketing department.
Just my opinion.





Aurelian -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:24:06 PM)

The price isn't going to change. No amount of complaining is going to change that.


What is far more important is:

Will I be able to get the DLC if I want them, being that I bought this when it came out?

What is the best way to play Russia?

And it's obvious that Matrix knows what it's doing. They're still here, unlike, say, SSI/Microprose.




italiamedio -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:33:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

This is interesting. Call me a yes man if you like, but I really don't get all the fuss.

Matrix sells the game at a given price. If you don't want to pay it, don't buy it. Maybe a post that says "I would like to get this game, but I wouldn't pay more than $10" is good feedback. Then move on and buy something else that you think is priced fairly.

We all have different values for these games. Hell, I'd have paid $300 for WITP AE if I had to. On the other hand, I have a number of Matrix games that I have picked up on sale here at the Matrix site that I haven't even opened yet - but I bought them because they were on sale.

Things go out of print sometimes - video games are no different. Plenty of old 8-bit cartridge games that go for pretty high prices on ebay because you can't buy them anywhere else.


Krieg. We know this. We know that: "if you don't like the price, don't buy it" way of thought. That is why I'm unhappy with what is going on here.

I'm concerned about the hard working developers who put out amazing wargames. I fear for them. If I don't buy this game, then guess what? The wargaming industry dies slowly. It's the truth. The Slitherine Group has such an almost, near-monopoly of the computer wargames industry that, if you don't guy from them, you hurt the wargames computer industry.

It's true. So, what else can I do. Be a criminal and buy from another store? Or how about I take my anger and just create a pirate torrenting site and start a campaign to give away all these titles for free because I don't want to financially support a publishing giant that has lost touch with the industry?

Really, what are my options? Their driving me to do one of three options above, two are criminal, and the third option of not buying simply hurts the industry and the potential for any future wargames.

Just my opinions.




rodney727 -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:38:51 PM)

The "fuss" is all about this. Before matrix purchased the rights to this game you could legally buy it for under five bucks or less. They said the reason for the 24.99 price tag is to support this game ( in which as of today they admit maybe in the future they will do so that is if they have the time). And while yes I'm sure every company wants to get a "paycheck" every week if your games don't produce enough sales to keep you going well that's your own tough luck. Let me put it this way. Company "a" has a game, it's about average really nothing outstanding by any means. The CEO of company "a" says hey lets sell this to other sites and let them determine the price. Three and half years latter company "a". Sells the game rights to company "s". Company "s" wants to make as much money off this game to support the guys at company "a" so they can make their new game for company "s". Problem is you see that company "a" has been selling this average game at a super low cost to everyone in the world. Company "s" says you should pay the high price for a game that is almost four years old this summer because company "a" needs the money to produce the new game in which company "s". Will demand a 40-50 price for. As a consumer I feel offended by this.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

This is interesting. Call me a yes man if you like, but I really don't get all the fuss.

Matrix sells the game at a given price. If you don't want to pay it, don't buy it. Maybe a post that says "I would like to get this game, but I wouldn't pay more than $10" is good feedback. Then move on and buy something else that you think is priced fairly.

We all have different values for these games. Hell, I'd have paid $300 for WITP AE if I had to. On the other hand, I have a number of Matrix games that I have picked up on sale here at the Matrix site that I haven't even opened yet - but I bought them because they were on sale.

Things go out of print sometimes - video games are no different. Plenty of old 8-bit cartridge games that go for pretty high prices on ebay because you can't buy them anywhere else.





FeurerKrieg -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:39:35 PM)

Your option is provide the feedback that you have about what you are willing to pay. If they see that enough, they will adjust the pricing.

Now if a bunch of people are buying at the current price, then they won't adjust, but if that is happening then no worries about the wargaming industry being damage and all that jazz.




italiamedio -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:42:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

It's not just their marketing department. While it is true in college I have taken several marketing classes in the UK I am wondering if the teach just the opposite of what I've learned. From what I can tell they have NO customer service skills at all in fact they have no customer service director other than Erik and mr I or mr P and it really shows. For example the Easter egg sale. Need I say more? Because I can. If they had ANYONE. With retail expericence at the re-launch of this three and and half year old game he or she would have said "hey guys wait a minute". For example the head of the American side admitted that no they did not realize that this game was being sold for under two bucks in the states should tell you that I'm right about this. While they say they know what they are doing it makes you wonder at times.



I agree on all accounts. Someone over there in Epsom, Surrey needs to wake up and smell the coffee. What the hell are they thinking?

I guess the real question is: Who really is the puppet master over there?

Another thing that is weird about this company is that all the people that we've gotten to know and that we receive feedback from are almost only always developers. Where is the marketing guy at? The guy who puts the price tags on everything and packages everything.
What, is he an introvert or something? Shouldn't he be out mingling with everyone? Or, is this marketing guy just another "yes man"? Do they even have a "marketing guy"? Makes me wonder...

Just my thoughts.




rodney727 -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:45:26 PM)

And this is the real tragedy ...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

The price isn't going to change. No amount of complaining is going to change that.


What is far more important is:

Will I be able to get the DLC if I want them, being that I bought this when it came out?

What is the best way to play Russia?

And it's obvious that Matrix knows what it's doing. They're still here, unlike, say, SSI/Microprose.





italiamedio -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:50:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

The "fuss" is all about this. Before matrix purchased the rights to this game you could legally buy it for under five bucks or less. They said the reason for the 24.99 price tag is to support this game ( in which as of today they admit maybe in the future they will do so that is if they have the time). And while yes I'm sure every company wants to get a "paycheck" every week if your games don't produce enough sales to keep you going well that's your own tough luck. Let me put it this way. Company "a" has a game, it's about average really nothing outstanding by any means. The CEO of company "a" says hey lets sell this to other sites and let them determine the price. Three and half years latter company "a". Sells the game rights to company "s". Company "s" wants to make as much money off this game to support the guys at company "a" so they can make their new game for company "s". Problem is you see that company "a" has been selling this average game at a super low cost to everyone in the world. Company "s" says you should pay the high price for a game that is almost four years old this summer because company "a" needs the money to produce the new game in which company "s". Will demand a 40-50 price for. As a consumer I feel offended by this.



I feel more than offended by this marketing scheme, its a bait and switch working on sentiments of the old grognards. It really is. Company "s" is trying to make a buck on peoples emotions and I'm not falling for it.

I say we boycott...




Wolfe1759 -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:50:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

1. We set the price for release on Matrix and Slitherine based on the same price AGEOD had been charging through their online store. We matched their price, we did not exceed it. That's the part of the price-matching which I was referring to earlier. Per our pricing, if this were a new release this would be more like a $40 or $50 game, but we matched the existing price for the AGEOD store.

2. The strategy that Paradox was pursuing with the AGEOD titles was indeed getting them out to many, many distributors and they were being sold at much lower prices in many of those places. We completely understand why this looks like a positive thing from the customer's perspective. The problem is, this was actually hurting AGEOD - the result of all that activity and low prices meant that they were not making enough revenue. Our goal is to allow AGEOD to thrive and develop games for a long time to come. Those revenues are not now going to us or to AGEOD in all cases - we're still finding out about some of the places where the games were previously sent and working out what to do. We will honor and support all sales through any distributor, but if your interest is in supporting us or AGEOD please realize that purchasing from the AGEOD, Matrix or Slitherine stores is the best way to support future development.

3. The main reason for our pricing is to make sure that the developers within this niche, who make the kinds of games we all like to play, remain active and financially viable. It is our job as a publisher (and a developer as well) to make money for them and for us, which leads to the virtuous cycle where those games we all enjoy continue to get made. We have a lot of data, including data from AGEOD, that supports this pricing strategy as the best one for the health of this niche.

4. At $24.99 Pride of Nations is still very good value for the gaming dollar.

Regards,

- Erik



Ok last word on this because clearly no one is listening.

1. Thats false. Price at Ageod was 15.99 yesterday. Now its 17.99. Next week I assume it will be 21.59 to match Matrix?

2 and 3. I have no problems with this view. I actually support it.

4. Yes it is.... if you are paying in Dollars. You won't let me pay in Dollars? Instead I must use an exchange rate which bears no reality with whats happening in the real world.

The bottom line is a game which was made and distributed in Europe at reasonable prices has now been hijacked and UK buyers must pay inflated prices.
I really dread to see what price AACW 2 will be! I'm pretty sure that Ageod would have priced it in the 19.99 range......we can kiss that goodbye now.


+1

I don't object to Matrix's pricing decision, Eric and the Matrix team are running a business and if they sell there product at as loss or an unsustainable level of profit in the future they will not be around and I'll have no new games to buy from them. I do strongly object (if that isn't already apparent) to paying roughly 30% more because I'm buying in Sterling.

$24.99 may be a reasonable price for PoN but I can't buy it for that.




Aurelian -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:55:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

And this is the real tragedy ...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

The price isn't going to change. No amount of complaining is going to change that.


What is far more important is:

Will I be able to get the DLC if I want them, being that I bought this when it came out?

What is the best way to play Russia?

And it's obvious that Matrix knows what it's doing. They're still here, unlike, say, SSI/Microprose.




No tragedy on my end. I also thought that WiTE was too high in price. I bought it anyway. The only tragedy would be if I didn't buy it at all, as I would miss out on the best game of that conflict I ever played.




rodney727 -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 10:57:56 PM)

This is classic. He doesn't own the game and never played it but he is saying yep it's worth the price they are asking.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

The game is clearly worth more then a one time sale price. I do not see the problem. 25 dollars is a fair price for this game. Those complaining, especially those that already own the game, can just ignore the price offered by matrix. You don't want to pay, don't buy.

I haven't bought this yet because I don't like AGEODs system of how games work. I have several of their games and none of them are intuitive or easy to work. That may change as the period interests me.





italiamedio -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 11:02:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

This is classic. He doesn't own the game and never played it but he is saying yep it's worth the price they are asking.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

The game is clearly worth more then a one time sale price. I do not see the problem. 25 dollars is a fair price for this game. Those complaining, especially those that already own the game, can just ignore the price offered by matrix. You don't want to pay, don't buy.

I haven't bought this yet because I don't like AGEODs system of how games work. I have several of their games and none of them are intuitive or easy to work. That may change as the period interests me.




That is pretty funny. I've never seen someone boldy make such a statement about how good a game is, just to wrap up the comment with the fact that they've never played it. [:D]




italiamedio -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 11:05:45 PM)

Seems like there is a lively discussion about this topic over at Grogheads too. We're not the only ones upset about this it seems.




italiamedio -> RE: Pricing (4/12/2013 11:09:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

And this is the real tragedy ...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

The price isn't going to change. No amount of complaining is going to change that.


What is far more important is:

Will I be able to get the DLC if I want them, being that I bought this when it came out?

What is the best way to play Russia?

And it's obvious that Matrix knows what it's doing. They're still here, unlike, say, SSI/Microprose.




No tragedy on my end. I also thought that WiTE was too high in price. I bought it anyway. The only tragedy would be if I didn't buy it at all, as I would miss out on the best game of that conflict I ever played.


Hi Aurelian,

Perhaps you didn't see the point. I believe rogo727 was trying to say that Matrix and Slitherine don't adjust prices according to market data, consumer opinions or demand. Thus the reason for the existence of this thread.

THAT seems to be the real fundamental tragedy here.




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