Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (Full Version)

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pumkinfacer22 -> Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/13/2012 3:51:02 AM)

Hey Guys,

1. I have built a base with 15 of each labs (Weapons,Energy,Hightech) giving me 375k (W,E,H) of Research each in the Edit Design screen (F8) --

1A. is this fine? and is there any reason to throw that up to 600k or leave at 90k..?

2. I have built a base with 15 of each plant (W,E,H) give me 675k of Manufacturing in Edit ship design screen (F8) --- is this ok??

2A. Can someone explain how many Plants I need and why.. for the Plants, is it per construction yard as I thought?? 15 Construction yards need 15 labs? Looking for an explanation of Manufacturing in ship design screen and what the values do/mean for the plants (Weapons,Energy,Hightech)

Once a clear answer/example has been posted here I think this post alone should help all those people searching the war room for research/manufacturing info..

boxleitnerb -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/13/2012 6:10:33 AM)

You need to have as many scientists as you have labs. Otherwise, the lab spaces are empty and don't contribute to research. There is an article right about that, but I'm new so I cannot post links yet.

But I will try to explain anyway:
Let's say you have a lab capacity of 200k+80k+80k=360k (called TRC, total research capacity). To the right of the screen you have the total empire research potential (TERP) - that is basically your number of available scientists to populate the labs with. The term "total" is misleading as you have to account for the bonuses (in green). Let's say you have 583k TERP and two bonuses due to your race and government, 15% and 25%. So the real TERP is 583k * 1.15 * 1.25 = 838k. 280k < 838k, so it is fine. If you build so many labs and have 375k x3 = 1125k TRC, it is likely larger than your real TERP (including bonuses), meaning you have more lab space than scientists. Build only as many labs as you currently need.

pumkinfacer22 -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/13/2012 6:38:33 AM)


for Manufacturing:
1.Now how many Plants do you need???? and is it per construction yard by any chance?

back to Research:
And I have a port right now with W:150k E:150l H:150K
My research screen tells me "Total Empire Research Potential : 871k

below: "Actual Output = 229k, 216k, 259k (W,E,H)

boxleitnerb -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/13/2012 7:11:27 AM)

871k (probably around 1100k with all bonuses) is a lot more than 150k+150k+150k=450k, so you are fine. You have more scientists than labs, you could build more.

Actual Output includes aforementioned bonuses (from government and race AND specific location bonuses from the locations your labs are placed at). That is why the actual output is significantly larger than each lab capacity.

As for manufacturing, read up here: (add the usual stuff in front)

Personally I'm getting quite frustrated with the lack of information in this game. These are the things that should be explained thoroughly in the manual or in the interface.

Basically the guy says, that you can have as many concurrent projects as you have construction long as enough manufacturing plants for the components are free.

You have 3 construction yards and 4 plants of each sort on your space station.
You want to build 3 ships that require 2 weapon, 2 tech and 2 energy components each.
Construction yard 1 and 2 start with ships 1 and 2 and use all plant capacity (2 for each ship).
Construction yard 3 is free and wants to start assembling the ship, but no plant is currently free to make the required components. It has to wait until one of the other ships is finished.

That is how I understand it. Don't know if it is true, though :D

pumkinfacer22 -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/13/2012 7:38:08 AM)

Ok I see what you are saying..

HOWEVER- Where in the Manual/Anywhere Does it explain the Manufacturing Values from Plants in the (F8)Design Screen :
Under "INDUSTRY" Section
W:135K , E: 135k , H: 135k

(thats my current port with 10 construction yards and 3 of each type plant..)) What the heck should I be trying to have for number of Plants? I can't believe such an awesome game is so vague when it comes to simple things like knowing what the value means of components etc!!!

boxleitnerb -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/13/2012 7:48:01 AM)

I just played around a bit with the editor, gave myself a custom space port with 100 construction yards but the standard 4 plants of each type. The space port comes with a lot of resources in the cargo hold and immediately all 100 construction yards were busy building 100 ships at once!

I will now try to increase the plant number to 500 each and see if that speeds up construction times.

feelotraveller -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/13/2012 4:28:39 PM)

Each Plant will build components in that field (weapons, energy, hi tech) of the size of the manufacturing capacity divided by 100.

If you have the first manufacturing advance so that your plants list their capacity at 45000 then each six day period they will build components in that field totalling 450 size.  Any remainder is carried over into the next six day period.

I do not believe this is documented anywhere.  I did tests back in but don't believe anything has changed.  My conclusions back then were that you need one plant of each type for about 30 or 40 construction yards. 

The real equation involves what components the ships in your construction yards are using and my conclusions were drawn from the limit case of freighters under construction which almost exclusively use components from only the energy and hi tech branches.  But seeing as you usually get gluts of private ships constructed this seemed to be a real limit to me.  Note that it also depends on the designs but I found that most of my designs were using components of about a 50/50 split.  The thing to watch in looking for limits is the average size of components since the yards work on a per component rather than per size basis.

Each yard adds components to its capacity divided by 100.  So with the first advance your yards add 3 components each six days.  As far as I was able to tell the remainder was neglected and not carried over.  (As a side note it makes most of the +x% construction bonuses absolutely useless until you have highly advanced construction technology - a size 300 yard with a +20% bonus = 3.6 rounded down to 3 which is the same as without a bonus at all!  You will see some effect on the ships constructed in your planetary dockyards...)

In conclusion 30 yards per manufacturing set (one each of weapons, energy and hi tech) is a safe bet and at 40 yards you may occasionally see a slight slow down if you are producing exclusively private ships.  You can probably actually stretch it further than this and not suffer any slowdowns in most circumstances since the plants will work even when the yards are full.  You can use this effectively to get a 'run-up' where you already have components waiting to go by pre-ordering.  Practically if this margin starts to drop ordering a few military ships -and letting them through to the yards- which use the weapons plant should open it up again.

Basically since you never (well almost never...) get to 30 yards on a spaceport just include one plant of each type and forget about it.

There was no response from the developers when I suggested that they should adjust this (and general incredulity from players, but I stand by it).  [:)]

p.s. boxleitnerb please continue your research as I am interested to see if you replicate my results.

[Edit: fixed minor mistake with the capacity of the plants (writing from memory I missed a zero). No difference to the conclusion.]

pumkinfacer22 -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/14/2012 1:28:43 AM)

Thank you for the reply.

I am however not fully satisfied - as you even said "never been documented" and why nobody knows whats the deal with the manufacturing plants is ridiculous to be honest.. But i really hope you find something out with that test posted earlier.. Please reply back with your findings!

I currently have a Energy: 450k Weapons: 450k HighTech: 450k Manufacturing setting in 1 custom base I have.. I think I have maybe 15-30 construction yards.. Is this pointless?

The sad thing is this goes for research too.. I think one base I also had something like E: 300k W: 300k H: 300k and a 647k in Terp? Total energry potential...

feelotraveller -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/14/2012 3:15:05 AM)

It is not true that nobody knows.  I'm sure Elliot knows.  I am pretty certain I know too.  My findings are above.  As yet nobody has disputed them.  [sm=terms.gif]  Do you?

It is pointless having more than one plant of each type unless you have well over 30 construction yards.  (Possible exception: Bakuras.)

If you can only do 647k research it does you no immediate good to have research labs totalling more than this.  Generally aim to have slightly more in total labs than your present potential.  900 is a lot greater than 647 so I would say that you have too much.  Around 675 would be good (exception being that you might want more if your strategic value will increase greatly in near future).  This is empire wide so if you have labs in other places as well you are way over.  That said the only harm it does you (just like with the plants) is extra maintenance cost.

pipewrench -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/14/2012 3:16:04 AM)


Most people have tried to answer your questions with their best knowledge. Please refrain from "ridiculous" and the immediate demand for satisfaction. People have lives , just like you, and might take offense.

This game is constantly evolving with some features added and tweaked with beta patches. Some aspects are also made obscure and are not finalized as yet. If you wish to test anything go right ahead and post your findings. Remember that different settings can change a result. If you want everything flow charted and constant manual updates preformed by a small software developer then you should email code force directly with your concerns.

have fun playing...

pumkinfacer22 -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/15/2012 12:36:49 AM)

so I understand somewhat you found out about manufacturing..

**I noticed the Pre-made Large space ports use 4-6 Plants.. but you are surely saying i should change this to just 1 plant of each correct??

one of the parts i am still a little confused with is "capacity at 45000 then each... they will build components in that field totalling 450 size"

can you give me a small example showing that if possible.

450 size means the amount of components?

feelotraveller -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/15/2012 12:31:42 PM)

How you want to play the game is entirely up to you.  You asked the question of how many plants you need for construction yards.  I have given you the best answer I can.  In certain circumstances you may well be able to get full build speed for say 60 yards with only one plant of each type.  My answer is deliberately conservative and is based on maintaining maximum build speed in all practical situations that I could envisage.  It turned out that having all private ships building was the limit case since they have little or no weapons or armour.  I assumed that they had none and hence that the weapons plant was idling.

Whether you want to do this, or use the standard designs, or be a Haakon [;)], is another question which I can't answer.

450 means the total size of the components.

Standard fuel cells have a size of 6.  Your hi tech plant of 45000 capacity (tech level 3, the first upgrade to the plant) will produce 75 standard fuel cells in a six day period if it is only building fuel cells.  If it is building only passenger compartments (size 10) then it will manufacture 45.

To follow the example through - if you have 30 yards at this tech level of yard construction they will potentially add 90 components in this same time period.  (They may add less, for instance when a design has a number of components that is not divisible by 3 - in this example, since the yard can add 3 components per time period - on the final period for the build they will add one or two less.  This is a hard to quantify factor and I have disregarded it.  My final conclusion is very deliberately quite conservative.)

Personally I think that this mechanism is elegant and it was quite a joy to uncover.  However I think the manufacturing plants are about 10 times to quick, since I like games within games.  As it is one plant of each type is all that I have ever required.  If they were ten times less potent there could be some decisions involved with how many to use.  Unfortunately (at least for me [;)]) it seems that Codeforce do not share this opinion.  Oh well.

pumkinfacer22 -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/16/2012 1:19:57 AM)

alright well.. i think it's hilarious that codeforce hasnt' responded to you about that but im sure they are "busy" ..... ... ....

I will however probably now make all my custom ports with only 1 Plant each of (W,E,H)... and probably 10-15 yards..

I appreciate you explaining the manufacturing.. I do find it odd that the pre-built designs have like 4 plants each in large port.. but what you say makes sense so ill go with 1 plant from now on...

feelotraveller -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/16/2012 1:23:33 AM)

Yes I find it a bad form that the pre-built designs just add a maintenance drag on unsuspecting players.  The 'AI' will always be unsuspecting...

Bingeling -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/16/2012 10:27:31 AM)

The AI drags around too many troops and ships, don't know how to deploy them in the best sense.

The AI have little clue how to run an efficient war, spend too much time refueling. They are not able to with a decent force send 4 transports to 4 new colonies, grab them, while their main force grabs a proper colony or two.

The AI does not have proper objectives in their wars. They don't force a peace with one part if stuck with multiple enemies.

The AI builds way to many resupply ships, and puts them in places where they are of little use.

The AI fails to optimize ship designs to available build sizes properly.

And yet... If the human player keeps away (rule in absentia), the AI will always win.

feelotraveller -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (9/16/2012 1:16:37 PM)

Totally agree with your comments.  But I'm just picking off the low hanging fruit.  [sm=00000289.gif]

warzer -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (5/31/2014 12:51:38 AM)

So I recently started reading these guides since universal is out and since the game does change over time. Is this still valid? 1 plant each type per 30 construction yards? I heard/read somewhere it was 1p for 3yards. I much prefer your conclusion if it continues to be true.

Spidey -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (5/31/2014 1:53:53 AM)

I don't know the truth, but I tend to go for one plant per 12-15 yards and I haven't noticed any bottleneck issues. This adds up to 2 plants on my large port designs that have, incidentally, 24-30 yards. But they're supposed to be big and expensive so I don't really mind having a "massive" two of each plant on them.

Fleshbits -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (5/31/2014 7:42:26 AM)

Correct me if wrong, but can't you simply keep total research capacity a smidge above actual output (including bonuses) in your research screen and forget math for the most optimal situation?
If it is lower, build more labs.
If it is higher don't.
Pretty simple?

Spidey -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (5/31/2014 11:12:08 AM)

You don't even need that much, Fleshbits. You just need the sum of your Total Research Capacity to equal or surpass your Total Empire Research Potential. The output is what happens when your actual output has been processed and afforded various bonus multipliers.

For example, in my current game my potential is 753. My capacity is 500k in each, since I'm cheap enough to throw one of each lab on my civilian mining bases, giving me a combinedc total research capacity of 1500. And that's a dramatic overkill, really, but the civilians are paying for it so who cares? But here's the thing, my Actual Output (including bonuses) is 643k weaps, 933k energy, and 717k high tech. So if I were to do it your way, I'd still need to add almost 800k research capacity, which would be a right pain in the ass.

KevlarAxis -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (12/6/2015 1:56:00 AM)

So would this be an accurate description of each of the fields in this thread?

Total Empire Research Potential: The total amount of research that your empire is capable of producing (before adding bonuses) based on the available scientists (which are the ones conducting the research) in your empire. These scientists are stationed at facilities that have labs in order to generate research. The type of research produced is dependent upon the labs that are present in the facility.
E.g. In a space port that has all 3 labs, the scientist(s) at the facility will split their research equally between the available labs; or a space port has, say, only energy labs, so that facility, if staffed with a scientist(s), will contribute that scientist's full potential to energy research

Total Research Capacity:The total *capacity* for each tech discipline (weapons, energy, high tech) that your empire can handle. Building a facility that had a large capacity for a specific field of research would end up providing the option of transferring scientists to that facility to effectively "specialize" in that area.
E.g. You decide that you want to research ship size quicker than anything else, so you build a couple of facilities that have energy labs exclusively. You transfer scientists to these facilities, and their research potential is directed towards energy research *only*, effectively distributing your "potential research" to a higher percentage in energy research. **It is worth noting that stationing scientists that have a bonus in a particular area in a facility that matches that ability is optimal. Their bonus will not apply if they are not conducting the relevant research.

Actual Output: The final product of your scientists' efforts in the stations that they are researching in. This number is the actual amount of research that you are producing, and incorporates your government bonuses, leader bonuses, location bonuses, and individual scientist bonuses (their character traits, and only applies if they are conducting research at a facility that has labs that correspond to their bonus)
E.g. You have a scientist that has a 10% bonus to weapons research. Their bonus will only apply if they are researching in a facility that has weapons labs, and the more specialized the facility (the more weapon labs it has in relation to the others, preferably 100% weapon labs to maximize the scientist's bonus) the more output you will generate.

Weapons plant, Energy plant, and high tech plant: Each plant manufactures components per "tick", which is 6 days in game. They produce components based on the size of the component. A plant that produces 45000 construction capacity, is capable of producing 450 (45,000 divided by 10) "size" in components every 6 in game days. Each plant only produces components that were obtained through research in it's respective field (any component that is obtained through technology that is researched in the weapons category will only be produced by weapon plants. The same holds true for energy and high tech components/plants)
E.g. A design has 3 titan beams, 10 deucalios shields, and 10 ultradense fuel cells. That is 6 size for each titan beam, or 18 "size" that the weapon plants must produce to complete this design. The deucalios shields would total 100, since each one has a size of 10, and that would need to be produced by the energy plants. The ultradense fuel cells, being researched in the high tech field and having a size of 6, would be produced by the high tech plants and would equal a total of 60 size. Since this example would be less than the 450 capacity of each plant, the components would be built within 1 "tick", and the design would be limited only by the construction speed of the construction yards.

None of this is my own work, other than interpreting the contribution of others in this thread and mixing it with my own common knowledge from casual play. I do not present this as is to be complete or 100% true, my only intention is to try and help simplify these concepts for new players by consolidating the collective wisdom as much as possible. This is something that I feel should have been done by the game creators, or at the very least they could have explained why they chose not to. In any case, any information in this post is subject to change at any point based on clarification of information based on research.

Bingeling -> RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** (12/6/2015 8:48:37 AM)

I always mess things up with this, but I try anyways. I checked the guide to guides and found a screenshot of the screen at the start of this thread:

Total empire research potential

Should not in any way or form be connected to your research labs or scientists. It is a size measure of the empire. More population and possible colonies, the higher research potential. It prevents massive research from happening with the 3000M start population.

Total research capacity

Is a "lab count". How many labs (at which performance) do you have in the empire. Scientists are not included in this number. The relative distribution in labs decide the distribution in research output, that is correct. Twice as many energy labs as weapons labs means twice as much research is put into energy.

Actual output

It is indeed the actual output.

Each research area get the best available location bonus which includes scientists at the location. Examples.

You have a 20% weapon research scientist based at the capital spaceport, a capital with no research bonus. This is all that you got in research. You have 20% bonus to weapon research from the capital spaceport.

You still have the scientist at the capital spaceport. You put a weapon research station at a 30% weapon research bonus site. You get a 30% bonus to weapon research, because the weapon site is the best location for that.

You then move the weapon scientist to the weapon research lab. You get a 50% bonus to weapon research, 30% from the site and 20% from the weapon scientist at the research lab at the bonus site.

I believe you need a weapons lab at the location for it to count, but the number of labs does not matter. You can have 50 weapons research labs on the capital spaceport, and a single weapons lab at the research bonus location. The bonus location (with the scientist) still gives 50% bonus. If you move the scientist to the capital spaceport, the research location is still the best with 30% bonus, and the capital is ignored with only the 20% bonus from the scientist.

Research at full capacity

What is needed to research at full speed is enough labs that your Total Research Capacities add up to more than your Total Empire Research potential. Having more does not hurt, but it costs money to build and maintain, and makes it harder to tweak the output by changing the distribution of labs.

It is not very hard to reach this limit, but being aware of it and building extra labs at the very start of the game is a good idea.

In addition you do of course boost research by having more percentage bonuses from research locations, scientists, governments and such stuff.

Weapon plants and the others

This is not a very relevant part of the game. A construction yard needs one of each plant to build the components for the ships. The plants are so efficient that there have been no reports of more than one plant being needed. So you need for instance 10 construction yards to have ship building capacity, but only 1 of each weapon, energy and high tech plant. If you put way more construction yards you may find that you need extra plants, but still not more than 10-15 construction yards for each set of 3 plants.

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