RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (Full Version)

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obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 2:02:18 PM)

Also. I've been doing some reading while I sit and proctor exams. This is from CR's 'Tokyo Rose' AAR. Even the 15th might be too late to completely thwart the fortress if the Allies are all-in and as crafty as he was in that game.

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12/15/41

The AV at Palembang is up to 186.

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I checked in with Dan about using some more numbers from his AAR, and he was very gracious in allowing that, so here is a list by day of what he was able to do with his fortress.

I've also included a few quotes from Nemo. Miss him being around to provide insight and another perspective to discussions.

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12/17/41

The Allied AV at Palembang is at 217 and will reach something like 285 tomorrow.

12/18/41

Allied AV at Palembang is up to 300 and climbing at about 30 per day

12/19/41

Palembang AV up to 338. That "Burma Relief Force" I diverted from Rangoon to Socatra a few days ago? Nah. Let's send that Indian brigade to Palembang.

12/20/41

The Allied AV at Palembang is up to 374. Most of these are "light" troops without any heavy weapons, so the garrison isn't as strong as it might seem.

12/21/42

Palembang's AV is up to 403.

12/22/41

The AV at Palembang increased to 421

12/23/41

The AV at Palembang is up to 470.

12/24/41

Palembang's AV increased to 486

He missed the 12/25/41 report, so here is quote from Nemo:

Landing at Palembang itself is VERY difficult for Japan because only its light cruisers ( and other light escorts ) can accompany the landing ships. This means that if the Allies get 6 inch CD guns into Palembang they should be able to seriously chew up the Japanese invasion forces. Add to that the fact that Allied bombers can strike the unloading ships while under CAP of fighters at Palembang ( thus the fighters are much more effective than if escorting ) AND the fact that all you need to do is disrupt the landings so the Dutch etc can get a few days of free bombardments in ( which raises their experience from the mid-20s to mid-40s ) and combined with forts and the swamp terrain ( which gives a x 6 defensive bonus cumulatively if you get level 6 forts ) and I doubt that an equal number of IJA troops would be able to take Palembang.

No, it'd be much, much better for the Japanese to land at Oosthaven where they can bring CAs and BBs or at the base on western Sumatra.

Either of those landings will simply result in the dutch and reinforcements withdrawing onto Palembang, gathering there for a final defensive battle and in so doing destroying huge portions of the infrastructure there.


The acme of strategy is the art of providing your opponent the freedom of action to choose between multiple options, all of which doom them. I chose the Palembang Gambit because I recognised that in so doing ( combined with aggressive raiding elsewhere --- pretty much the template Canoerebel is using in this game ) it would allow me to create a situation in which the Japanese initiative was negated and in which any choice they made would result in the undoing of their industrial base ( which is, of course, the true target of most Allied actions in-game ).

Is the supply abstraction at Palembang unrealistic? Yes, a refinery like that wouldn't make 1,000 tons of general supplies per day BUT the same rules apply everywhere else. In the end within 3 months of game start I had some 250,000 tons of supplies on Sumatra so that shows that any defence was predicated on bringing supplies in, not on the supply generation. So, overall, I think the issue is a moot point as it is very much a swings and roundabouts situaiton.


12/26/41

Palembang's AV is up to 515

12/27/41

Palembang garrison is up to 535 AV.

12/28/41

The AV at Palembang is up to 549.

12/29/41

Palembang AV is up to 560. Indian brigade mostly unloaded at Oosthaven with AV 100.

12/30/41

Allied AV at Palembang at 577.

12/31/41

Allied AV at Palembang is up to 599 (forts 2.45%; most of the infantry units are prepped in the high 20s now).

1/1/42 and 1/2/42

Allied AV at Palembang up to 624.

1/3/42

Part of the Sarawak CD unit should unload at Oosthaven tonight. AV at Palembang up to 638 with forts at 2.6.

1/4/42

Palembang AV is up to 657

1/5/42

Palembang AV up to 670.

1/7/42

Palembang AV up to 671; Oosthaven AV to 154; Singapore AV to 935.

1/8/42

Palembag AV 678; Oosthaven 159; Singapore 940.

1/9/42

Palembang AV 683 (forts about to go to three); Oosthaven AV 164 (forts about to go to two); Singapore AV 941 (forts 3.5)

Nemo again:

Palembang: it isn't essential to Japan ( I did the analysis which showed the Jap economy can run full bore without any input from Palembang) BUT it is essential if Japan wants to be able to sustain a war of attrition as it supports significant expansion of the Japanese HI.




Canoerebel -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 3:15:40 PM)

I wasn't crafty in the "Tokyo Rose" game.  I was lucky.  My opponent focused soley on the Philippines and other distant objectives, giving me total access to Palembang that never stopped.  He could have easily addressed the sitaution in December 1941...after that, he could have easily cauterized Palembang (taking Oosthaven and some of the islands on both sides of Palembang), thus isolating the "infection," preventing me from reinforcing it, and then he could have dealt with it at his leisure.

Even with so much AV committed to Palembang, I was sweating things deep into the summer of 1942.  First, he might've cauterized the area and then moved on to invade India, which was weakly defended.  Or, he could've committed everything he had (land, sea and air) to attend to Palembang.  It would've been a tough battle, but the Allies couldn't afford to lose the troops that were rather exposed there.  Lose 5,000 or 6,000 AV, mostly UK and Indian troops, and the Allied player would be hurting.

If I were a Japanese player, I don't think I would sweat 500 AV at Palembang (assuming this is Scenario Two) as long as I attended timely to Oosthaven, Benkolen, and some of those islands.  At that point, Palembang becomes a prison that may be more costly to the Allied player than it is to me.  The key is to cauterize and prevent the Allied player from turning a minor redoubt into a major fortress.

Caveat:  I've just started reading this AAR and have only read the last 31 posts.  I don't even know what Scenario they're playing.  So my insight may be way off. 




witpqs -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 3:23:10 PM)

I thought that IJN CAs could get to Palembang too? Nemo's post quoted above says only light cruisers.




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 4:15:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Caveat:  I've just started reading this AAR and have only read the last 31 posts.  I don't even know what Scenario they're playing.  So my insight may be way off. 


It is Scen 1, so I do have to be a bit more careful and deal with this as soon as I can.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I thought that IJN CAs could get to Palembang too? Nemo's post quoted above says only light cruisers.


I'm fairly positive CAs can move to Palembang. They can certainly go to Saigon and Rangoon.




Canoerebel -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 4:16:37 PM)

No, I don't think CAs can go to Palembang.  Nothing larger than a CL, IIRC.




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 4:33:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

No, I don't think CAs can go to Palembang.  Nothing larger than a CL, IIRC.


That's very good to know!




Ingtar -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 5:05:46 PM)

You were speaking of house rules for Palembang earlier. Would requiring the Allied player to turn off everything at Palembang remove the supply generation and make this a more "realistic" fight?




Canoerebel -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 5:31:50 PM)

There's no need for house rules for Palembang.  It is within Japan's power to handle Palembang no matter what the Allies do.




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 5:37:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ingtar

You were speaking of house rules for Palembang earlier. Would requiring the Allied player to turn off everything at Palembang remove the supply generation and make this a more "realistic" fight?


Several players were mentioning supply issues and possible HRs for Palembang. It seems to always come up regarding this particular strategy. I can't comment too much on the 'reality' of logistical possibilities in the area during the war. I'm sure it must have presented many problem due to the terrain, climate, etc.

In game, the Allies have tons of supply available to bring in if needed. I think if they turned off the oil it would hurt but not be impossible to maintain a good-sized garrison here as long as Oosthaven was in their hands, and to a lesser extent Benkolen.




Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 9:41:44 PM)

All Japanese heavy Cruisers can enter the Palembang hex.




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 9:53:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

All Japanese heavy Cruisers can enter the Palembang hex.


Aha! Thank you! So much conflicting opinion, but you sound very sure, so I'll go with it.

PS - I just bought the model of the Tsugaru that your sig pic comes from! I know you used to have a CA there, but I quite like the minelayer.




ny59giants_MatrixForum -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 9:56:26 PM)

Yes, CAs can go into Palembang. Same as Saigon for ship size restrictions. Both bases are up a river, not on the coast.




Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 9:57:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

All Japanese heavy Cruisers can enter the Palembang hex.


Aha! Thank you! So much conflicting opinion, but you sound very sure, so I'll go with it.

PS - I just bought the model of the Tsugaru that your sig pic comes from! I know you used to have a CA there, but I quite like the minelayer.

Ah now I have doubts about it O.o (nah I am sure)

The Tsugaru is Canorebels punishment for me for mentioning the unmentionable. After inspecting the minelayer ingame after his demotion I actualy started to like it.




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/7/2012 9:58:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Yes, CAs can go into Palembang. Same as Saigon for ship size restrictions. Both bases are up a river, not on the coast.


Thanks. I was going to try it in my other game, but I don't have any CAs near there, so couldn't test for sure.




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/8/2012 12:08:14 AM)

20 December 1941
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There have been some interesting developments and an agreement of sorts proposed by Torsten.

Palembang: During our last exchange of turns Torsten mentioned there was a lot of activity in the AAR. I let him know there was some conversation about Palembang and the possibility of a build-up there. He assured me immediately that he was not preparing a fortress to take out the oil. In fact he proposed an agreement.

If and when I do land at Palembang and if during the battle the forts get to level 2 (I truly hope they're not higher already!) he will evacuate his forces if I agree to let him. So he can still attempt to stall my capture of the base, and I'm sure he will try to siphon off a bunch of fuel, but the infrastructure will remain intact as I'll have the base without a last stand battle. He will walk out to presumably Oosthaven and I'll wait for it to change over by default.

As with any agreement of this sort, there are some gray areas. When can I then attack the departing units? Must I allow them to board ships and sail away? We'll see when we get closer to the actual moment.

So it's been a very interesting discussion, and I've learned a lot about what is possible to achieve best play for the Japanese side.

I still will have to land at Palembang, which will be tough. Maybe. I reconned Batavia and Palembang again, and no ships were sighted other than a few transportsand two 'CA.' Search shows very little moving in the Java Sea. Is he shifting now that I have eyes in South Borneo to the E DEI in an attempt to surprise me with strong surface forces there? We'll see soon.

DEI: All TFs are spreading out from Saigon and Cam Ranh Bay in a red fan across the blue Sea of China. Two CA 1 CL and 3 DD will attempt to bombard Palembang tomorrow. They're just West of Singkawang and have LR CAP from Nates close up and Zeros all of the way.

The Brigade TF is moving to situate itself in ready position near Miri. The feint to Billiton is ready as well and is moving out from Saigon. The mini-KB is heading for Miri to refuel and pick up new zeros. It should get 4 more to bring the total to 34 on the three CVs.

Malaya: Sweeps found no aircraft at Singapore again. Interesting. Sweeps will stay on tomorrow and Medan will be reconned. I'll try to look at Oosthaven as well.

I posted Nells with the newly arrived 3rd Air Division HQ at Taiping. I thought this might be a good moment to catch something moving beyond Sumatra if he's not being careful. They're on a search arc to avoid Singapore and Palembang as well as Port Blair.

Troops are moving south toward Kuala Lumpur. Looks like everything is scampering away. No slow units here. Maybe the British wised up and bought some bikes.

subs: During the night subs between Singapore and Sumatra had a field day.

I-166 set TK Manvantara on fire with one fish.

I-158 hit TK Harpa with another, burning her oil.

Then I-122 hit already damaged CL Dauntless with one to send her under in a hail of creaks and bubbles. Another one down!

KXVII hit an AKL near Saigon, sinking her.

China: Sinyang is holding by a thread. The forts did not go to two, and the attack pushed them to 0. Ouch! Still, the Chinese lost 212 disabled troops. If they can really keep this up I'll be surprised. If the fort goes up to 1 again, we stand chance. If not, it'll be dicey. The AV is at 458 after the turn.

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Ground combat at Sinyang (86,48)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 48275 troops, 274 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1600

Defending force 18390 troops, 177 guns, 13 vehicles, Assault Value = 543

Allied adjusted assault: 568

Japanese adjusted defense: 433

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 1)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1110 casualties reported
Squads: 21 destroyed, 110 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 9 disabled
Guns lost 11 (2 destroyed, 9 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1374 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 204 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled

Assaulting units:
29th Chinese Corps
13th Chinese Corps
85th Chinese Corps
41st Chinese Corps
12th Chinese Corps
90th Chinese Corps
48th Chinese Corps
92nd Chinese Corps
7th New Chinese Corps
3rd Group Army
2nd Group Army
31st Group Army

Defending units:
1st Ind.Mixed Brigade
13th Division
12th RGC Temp. Division
18th RGC Temp. Division
52nd Road Const Co
67th JAAF AF Coy

---------------------------------------------------------


The CAF showed it's wings today over Sinyang. Kicking myself that I moved the 22 Nate LR CAP yesterday that had been over the base. It'll be back tomorrow along with sweeps and about 200 bombers hitting the ground.

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Morning Air attack on 13th Division, at 86,48 (Sinyang)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
A-29A Hudson x 9
DB-3M x 6
SB-III x 21

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x DB-3M bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 100 kg GP Bomb

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I moved one zero group in from the PI. It's in Nanchang and will both CAP the immediate area and LR CAP Wuchang so I can bomb the troops there.

One more day of walking and the Corps near Wenchow will be attacked by 4 divisions and a regiment. Hopefully this will greatly reduce it's battle worthiness and give the troops staying in the area a distinct advantage.

A bunch of troops are in Hankow! Here is the bombardment result. Looks like everything that started near Ichang. Glad this place has so much support and level 4 forts. Still, I bet he'll try us out, which will make me sweat a lot in the next few days. I just need one 1:2 Chinese attack to give some time to move units in to these spots.

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Ground combat at Hankow (85,50)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 36522 troops, 414 guns, 42 vehicles, Assault Value = 1295

Defending force 91438 troops, 586 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3015

Japanese ground losses:
40 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Allied ground losses:
79 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Assaulting units:
11th RGC Temp. Division
20th Ind.Mixed Brigade
58th Infantry Regiment
34th Division
14th Ind.Mixed Brigade
9th Armored Car Co
13th RGC Temp. Division
14th RGC Temp. Division
51st Road Const Co
1st Mortar Battalion
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
Hankow Special Base Force
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
11th Army
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
2nd Ind. Engineer Regiment
8th Ind. Engineer Regiment
22nd AA Regiment
54th JAAF AF Bn

Defending units:
68th Chinese Corps
67th Chinese Corps
30th Chinese Corps
32nd Chinese Corps
77th Chinese Corps
2nd Chinese Corps
75th Chinese Corps
87th Chinese Corps
55th Chinese Corps
8th Chinese Corps
45th Chinese Corps
94th Chinese Corps
26th Group Army
33rd Group Army

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Nanchang is looking a bit better off. Also there is more coming this way to support from the West.

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Ground combat at Nanchang (85,54)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 11775 troops, 80 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 425

Defending force 32307 troops, 264 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1040


Allied ground losses:
21 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Assaulting units:
12th Ind.Mixed Brigade
11th Ind.Mixed Brigade
23rd RGC Temp. Division
17th JAAF Base Force

Defending units:
72nd Chinese Corps
9th Prov Chinese Corps
50th Chinese Corps
26th Chinese Corps
49th Chinese Corps
3rd New Chinese Corps
3rd War Area
30th Group Army

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PI: Sweeps met nothing today but at least the bombers flew putting 10 hits on the vacant Manila runway. It's getting obvious Torsten is most interested in keeping these planes here as long as possible. So one left to China. The other will leave to the DEI as soon as support will give it a place to reside.

What Torsten does not know necessarily, although he must know it will happen sooner or later, is that the KB groups have flown off the CVs and landed at Nagasaki/Sasebo. They will move to support both China and the PI, then work their way South.

Today at Vigan two more PTs went under against our 3 DD TF. I seem to have figured out something against these guys. Well, at least for now.

E DEI: Ternate is operational with 4 Jakes installed. Jolo is the launching pad for para-troops landing tomorrow in Malaybalay. Several TFs are leaving tomorrow to the East Luzon landing, another unit for Mindanao, and soon a force will be ready to hit Kendari if the coast still looks clear. Mavis will join in the searching tomorrow at several bases.

Pacific: Tulagi is landed. Two CAs are at Ocean. These CAs will move nearby, but to the West at least 7 hexes, and assess if a strike is possible tomorrow.

The SCTF should arrive at last in the Wake hex tomorrow, just in time I'm sure for the amphib TF to leave. Another AM was hit by a sub here today.

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Sub attack near Wake Island at 136,98

Japanese Ships
SS I-20

Allied Ships
AM Grebe, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
AM Turkey
xAP St. Mihel
xAK Laida
PC Reliance
AM Vireo
AM Tern

SS I-20 launches 2 torpedoes at AM Grebe
I-20 bottoming out ....
PC Reliance fails to find sub, continues to search...

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[image]local://upfiles/37283/D847D7C0202241388850172D3E7AD515.jpg[/image]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

A few surface combat ships at Palembang.

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obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/8/2012 12:13:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

All Japanese heavy Cruisers can enter the Palembang hex.


Aha! Thank you! So much conflicting opinion, but you sound very sure, so I'll go with it.

PS - I just bought the model of the Tsugaru that your sig pic comes from! I know you used to have a CA there, but I quite like the minelayer.

Ah now I have doubts about it O.o (nah I am sure)

The Tsugaru is Canorebels punishment for me for mentioning the unmentionable. After inspecting the minelayer ingame after his demotion I actualy started to like it.


In the game it's already made a couple of fast transport runs for me. Very versatile working class kind of ship. After seeing the deck and all of the stuff that goes on it, I just wonder where they fit the 2nd plane.




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/8/2012 2:01:34 PM)

Long Range CAP
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

After a very quick and amicable discussion Torsten and I decided to no longer use LR CAP for supporting bombing runs and sweeps by fighters. An interesting rule, this will generally mean we'll both take higher losses from escorting bombers, from multiple uncoordinated sweeps but we'll still be able to use LR CAP to defend a base, troops or ships.

The kicker was that he could not sweep his own base to fight my LR CAP and so it becomes a bit of an exploit in that case. This will most likely advantage both of us at different points in the game.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
[image]local://upfiles/37283/83D5512C5A8C4C53966AA106E5932108.jpg[/image]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




JocMeister -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/8/2012 3:12:05 PM)

As I wrote in more detail in a mail to you I´m very intrested to hear what other thinks of not using LRCAP in conjunction with sweep? I see this having a huge game altering effect! But I´m also more or less a noob! [:D]




SqzMyLemon -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/8/2012 9:12:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

After a very quick and amicable discussion Torsten and I decided to no longer use LR CAP for supporting bombing runs and sweeps by fighters. An interesting rule, this will generally mean we'll both take higher losses from escorting bombers, from multiple uncoordinated sweeps but we'll still be able to use LR CAP to defend a base, troops or ships.

The kicker was that he could not sweep his own base to fight my LR CAP and so it becomes a bit of an exploit in that case. This will most likely advantage both of us at different points in the game.


Interesting. I hope it works out for both of you.

I wish something could be done about leaking CAP. It's killing me in my game and makes defending my air space impossible. My units ignore target selection for LRCAP and react beyond maximum range settings to impale themselves on enemy sweeps and LRCAP over a target the enemy has chosen, completely ignoring and overwriting the target I want defended. It's not only a few aircraft, whole units are decimated because of this flaw in the air model. It's taken tactical game play out of my hands, and I'm paying a huge price in terms of losses and lack of control over my forces.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

As I wrote in more detail in a mail to you I´m very intrested to hear what other thinks of not using LRCAP in conjunction with sweep? I see this having a huge game altering effect! But I´m also more or less a noob! [:D]


Being on the receiving end of it in my game and having no means to counter it other than trying to use the same exploit isn't a fun experience. Since I can't sweep my own bases to counter enemy LRCAP, my forces are at a distinct tactical disadvantage when performing CAP. It's fly and get slaughtered, or don't and be bombed into the stone age. It is a contributing factor for me in deciding to take an extended break from WitPAE when my current matches are wrapped up. I'm done.




JocMeister -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/9/2012 7:37:05 AM)

Joseph, I´m not sure I´m understanding your problem?
You are putting a group on 100% LRCAP on a specific target say base A, but the game ignores that and puts up the LRCAP over base B that is also outside the maximum range you have specified for the group? If so that very much sound like a bug to me? Perhaps make a post in the support forum and see what michelm says?





KenchiSulla -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/9/2012 8:40:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Long Range CAP
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

After a very quick and amicable discussion Torsten and I decided to no longer use LR CAP for supporting bombing runs and sweeps by fighters. An interesting rule, this will generally mean we'll both take higher losses from escorting bombers, from multiple uncoordinated sweeps but we'll still be able to use LR CAP to defend a base, troops or ships.

The kicker was that he could not sweep his own base to fight my LR CAP and so it becomes a bit of an exploit in that case. This will most likely advantage both of us at different points in the game.



___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
[image]local://upfiles/37283/83D5512C5A8C4C53966AA106E5932108.jpg[/image]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


There is just one thing you have to realise.. It is not possible to interdict transport flying in supplies to an enemy base with this rule active. You might want to consider relaxing the rule if your not flying bombers or sweeps to that target hex.




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/9/2012 10:46:01 AM)

quote:

There is just one thing you have to realise.. It is not possible to interdict transport flying in supplies to an enemy base with this rule active. You might want to consider relaxing the rule if your not flying bombers or sweeps to that target hex.


Thanks Canonfodder. Yes, we talked about the difficulties of implementation, and agreed that this really only applies to offensive operations. Supporting sweeps and bombing runs primarily. Obviously if we both have units in a hex, which is the case at Sinyang, we're both LR CAPing that hex. The turn I'm about to write up had his AVG hitting a few of my bombers and transports and my IJAAF hitting his CAF bombers. I can't remember if the CAP planes actually interacted at all with each other, but they both hit incoming planes.

For all normal uses like LR CAP over a base to stop transports and other planes flying in or out of that base, it's fine. Now, if we're sweeping that base as well, I think we'll have to see what happens and deal with that in time. I'm sure it will happen a bit. We'll just have to use some common sense and keep communication open, which is a good thing. It's only meant to thwart using the engine to give advantage the other player cannot easily combat.

Jocke and I have agreed to a modified version of the same in my other game, really just limiting LR CAP as a tool for getting better escorts, but have left the LR CAP to assist coordinating sweeps. I know, it gets difficult to say what's being used for sweep and what for escort, because you'll always sweep before bombing. But it's more of a spirit of play idea, and for each of us to be aware and in conversation about these before any things become an issue. So complicated.

It might be great to have no rules whatsoever and just go for it, but it seems that could lead to some bitterness as well. I mainly want my opponents to feel they are getting a good game but that game engine tricks are limited, well known and talked about.




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/9/2012 10:14:56 PM)

21 December 1941
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It's getting a bit frenetic between games at the moment. This was another interesting turn and I took a big risk that didn't do much either harm or good.

subs: The AD Back Hawk gets two today from I-121. It feels good to take out all of these ships, even though every Japanese player does it. almost all of the important support sips have been sunk in this game. I seem to have either missed the Langley or its still in Manila. I seem to remember it getting hit on turn 1, but I'd have to look back for that.

Pickerel hits our large xAP Kamakura Maru, but she only has 10 float damage after the turn. That's great! Do they armor those troop ships in Japan?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Makassar at 62,105

Japanese Ships
SS I-121

Allied Ships
AD Black Hawk, Torpedo hits 2, heavy damage

AD Black Hawk is sighted by SS I-121
SS I-121 launches 2 torpedoes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Aparri at 82,73

Japanese Ships
xAP Kamakura Maru, Torpedo hits 1
DD Namikaze
xAP Suwa Maru
DD Yugao
DD Karukaya

Allied Ships
SS Pickerel



SS Pickerel launches 4 torpedoes at xAP Kamakura Maru
DD Yugao fails to find sub, continues to search...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


DEI: I sent in a bombardment TF to hit Palembang. I know, this is a big risk, as not only is this deep in Allied territory, but it could hit the oil. Since I can't yet bomb the base, I thought it a risk worth taking to stall forts and hit planes and the airfields.

Today the ships only got to the harbor entrance. They ran into a BIG tanker TF and wiped it clean, taking out two DDs in the process. So that felt good. That makes about 10 TKs sunk so far.

Although I'm thinking he'll now just move the planes, I'll take a risk and go in anyway tomorrow in the hopes that he will think I'm not quite that daft.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Palembang at 49,90, Range 25,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Maya
CA Ashigara
CL Kuma
DD Amatsukaze
DD Ikazuchi
DD Inazuma, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
DD Edsall, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
DD Stronghold, Shell hits 24, and is sunk
TK Strix, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
TK Augustina, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
TK Semiramis, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
TK Pinna, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk



Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 24,000 yards
Allied TF attempts to evade combat
Range increases to 25,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 25,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages TK Strix at 25,000 yards
CA Maya engages TK Pinna at 25,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages TK Augustina at 25,000 yards
Range closes to 22,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages DD Stronghold at 22,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages DD Edsall at 22,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages TK Strix at 22,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages TK Strix at 22,000 yards
Range closes to 19,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages TK Pinna at 19,000 yards
TK Pinna sunk by CA Maya at 19,000 yards
CA Maya engages TK Augustina at 19,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Edsall at 19,000 yards
Range closes to 17,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages DD Edsall at 17,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Edsall at 17,000 yards
CL Kuma engages TK Semiramis at 17,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Stronghold at 17,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Edsall at 17,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages TK Augustina at 16,000 yards
CA Maya engages DD Edsall at 16,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages TK Semiramis at 16,000 yards
CL Kuma engages TK Augustina at 16,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages TK Strix at 16,000 yards
DD Edsall engages DD Amatsukaze at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 14,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages DD Edsall at 14,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages DD Edsall at 14,000 yards
CL Kuma engages TK Augustina at 14,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages DD Edsall at 14,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages TK Strix at 14,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages DD Stronghold at 11,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Edsall at 11,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages TK Semiramis at 11,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages DD Stronghold at 11,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Stronghold at 11,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Edsall at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
CA Maya engages DD Edsall at 9,000 yards
CL Kuma engages TK Augustina at 9,000 yards
DD Edsall engages DD Inazuma at 9,000 yards
DD Edsall engages DD Ikazuchi at 9,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Stronghold at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages DD Stronghold at 11,000 yards
CA Maya engages TK Strix at 11,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages TK Semiramis at 11,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages TK Augustina at 11,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Edsall at 11,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Edsall at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
Massive explosion on TK Augustina
CA Ashigara engages TK Augustina at 10,000 yards
DD Edsall engages DD Ikazuchi at 10,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages TK Semiramis at 10,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages DD Edsall at 10,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Edsall at 10,000 yards
DD Stronghold engages DD Amatsukaze at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages DD Stronghold at 7,000 yards
CA Maya engages DD Edsall at 7,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages TK Semiramis at 7,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Edsall at 7,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages DD Stronghold at 7,000 yards
TK Semiramis sunk by CA Maya at 7,000 yards
DD Stronghold engages DD Ikazuchi at 7,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Edsall at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
CA Ashigara engages DD Stronghold at 5,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages TK Augustina at 5,000 yards
DD Edsall sunk by DD Inazuma at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
DD Stronghold engages DD Amatsukaze at 3,000 yards
CA Maya engages DD Stronghold at 3,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Stronghold at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
DD Inazuma engages DD Stronghold at 2,000 yards
Magazine explodes on DD Stronghold
DD Stronghold sunk by CA Maya at 2,000 yards
Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


China: Sinyang holds! [:)] [&o]

Early on and throughout the replay about 200 bombers go in and most make it through the AVG's LR CAP. Only a few Bettys and 2 Sally Ic get hit, but it is over our base, and miraculously, all pilots make it. Three are WIA.

The bombing takes out about 35 squads of infantry disabled and when the Shock happens at the end, the Chinese get a 1:1 but suffer very large casualties. The IJA takes 93 squads lost but almost all of them are from the Chinese militia units. The division is holding strong especially and hasn't lost much of its force.

It will be next to impossible for them to continue the pace of these attacks and take the base soon now, so all will depend on how fast each of us can bring in more troops and how quickly I can build forts back up. They are now about halfway to level 2.

Engineers were flown in and more will come tomorrow to push these up quickly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Sinyang (86,48)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 56589 troops, 349 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1439

Defending force 17809 troops, 178 guns, 13 vehicles, Assault Value = 475

Allied adjusted assault: 1160

Japanese adjusted defense: 1093

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
1122 casualties reported
Squads: 93 destroyed, 20 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 9 disabled
Guns lost 8 (7 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
2689 casualties reported
Squads: 196 destroyed, 152 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 52 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 25 disabled
Guns lost 19 (1 destroyed, 18 disabled)


Assaulting units:
29th Chinese Corps
12th Chinese Corps
85th Chinese Corps
13th Chinese Corps
48th Chinese Corps
92nd Chinese Corps
90th Chinese Corps
41st Chinese Corps
7th New Chinese Corps
2nd Group Army
3rd Group Army
31st Group Army

Defending units:
12th RGC Temp. Division
18th RGC Temp. Division
13th Division
1st Ind.Mixed Brigade
56th Engr Rgt /1
52nd Road Const Co
67th JAAF AF Coy


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 48th Chinese Corps, at 86,48 (Sinyang)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 45
Ki-27b Nate x 11



Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 3


Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged

No Allied losses


Allied ground losses:
36 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
18 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
24 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
AVG/2nd Sqn with H81-A3 (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead

Also attacking 13th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 92nd Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 90th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 48th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 13th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 92nd Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 48th Chinese Corps ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The CAF tries it's luck again, but even Nates can take down Chinese bombers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 13th Division, at 86,48 (Sinyang)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 9
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 3



Allied aircraft
A-29A Hudson x 3
DB-3M x 6


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
A-29A Hudson: 2 destroyed
DB-3M: 5 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



Aircraft Attacking:
3 x DB-3M bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 100 kg GP Bomb
3 x DB-3M bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 100 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
10th I.F.Chutai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Raid is overhead
54th Sentai with Ki-27b Nate (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Raid is overhead

Also attacking 1st Ind.Mixed Brigade ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 13th Division, at 86,48 (Sinyang)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 1 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 0 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 5
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 2



Allied aircraft
A-29A Hudson x 6


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
A-29A Hudson: 4 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x A-29A Hudson bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
10th I.F.Chutai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 113 minutes
54th Sentai with Ki-27b Nate (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 146 minutes


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PI: Malaybalay was taken by paradrop today. That should speed up this island should the base hold and units from Cagayan cannot march up there.

The PTs got in close and did their first damage today taking down one of my favorite ships, a W class DMS. We got one of them back as well. Over half of the PTs in the area have been sunk and no transports lost to those or to subs in the area.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Vigan at 80,73, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DMS W-9, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DMS W-10
DMS W-11
DMS W-12

Allied Ships
PT-33
MTB 7
MTB 9
MTB 26, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
MTB 27

Reduced sighting due to 7% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 7% moonlight: 2,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 2,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
DMS W-12 engages PT-33 at 2,000 yards


Pacific: Indeed ships are gone by the time we arrive at Wake. Now a bombing to see what was installed there. I'll try to send Nells very high to have a look. Recon by ground bombing.

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[image]local://upfiles/37283/4BF2A3C389EA4BD5B181B2FD22515124.jpg[/image]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/10/2012 12:50:58 PM)

22 December 1941
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

subs: Torsten got a good piece of intel today. He probably assumes the air groups will be used elsewhere starting now.

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ASW attack near Chiba at 115,62

Japanese Ships
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei
CA Chikuma
DD Urakaze
DD Isokaze
DD Kasumi
DD Arare

Allied Ships
SS O16



SS O16 is sighted by escort
O16 diving deep ....
DD Kasumi fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Arare fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Kasumi fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Kasumi fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Kasumi fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Kasumi fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


DEI: The Palambang bombardment went well, but I neglected to set a spotter. That's fine as I didn't want to do too well here and hit the oil As it is, I did take a little bit off of the refinery, which is fine. Hit the fields a little.

The ships hit two HDMLs on the way out but had no further action and made it to safety.

As soon as Singkawang is back in shape, sweeps will begin here.

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Night Naval bombardment of Palembang at 48,91

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson I: 6 damaged
Buffalo I: 9 damaged
Buffalo I: 1 destroyed on ground
L-18 Lodestar: 8 damaged
Blenheim I: 1 damaged
Catalina I: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CA Ashigara
CA Maya
CL Kuma


Allied ground losses:
115 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 29 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled


Manpower hits 1
Refinery hits 1
Fires 363
Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 11
Port hits 3
Port fuel hits 1

CA Ashigara firing at Palembang
CA Maya firing at Palembang
CL Kuma firing at Palembang


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


China: Operation SqzMyWenchow has come to a resounding close with a 467:1 attack nearly vaporizing a Chinese Corps. These units will head on now to other areas in need and we'll see how much this impacts timing in the SRA. Seems like we'll still be on schedule at this point.

Elsewhere bombing crushes more Chinese troops. Reinforcements are only 3-4 days away from Sinyang. Forts are at 64% toward level 2 there with 108 engineers in the base.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 90,58 (near Wenchow)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 51590 troops, 458 guns, 106 vehicles, Assault Value = 1827

Defending force 4072 troops, 43 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 128

Japanese adjusted assault: 1401

Allied adjusted defense: 3

Japanese assault odds: 467 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)
experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
176 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Allied ground losses:
1219 casualties reported
Squads: 184 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 29 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 10 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 20 (15 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Units retreated 1


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
113th Infantry Regiment
22nd Division
4th Division
21st Division
33rd Division

Defending units:
88th Chinese Corps


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PI: Another MTB was taken down today.

Sweeps will begin again tomorrow over Clark with the Tainan zeros and one of the CV groups. We'll see if anything is up in the air.

B-17s hit Takao port. All ships will now be moved as everything is loaded out of here already.

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Morning Air attack on Takao , at 84,65

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 15


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
xAK Hokutai Maru, Bomb hits 1
xAK Hakusika Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


E DEI: Troops are bound for Kendari. More from Samah will load for Balikapan and Tarakan tomorrow.

Pacific: Wake has been reinforced with another Marine Defense battalion. I'll need some BBs and at least an SNLF and a regiment now to take that one it seems.

CAs are stalking what appear to be two US CAs at ocean. Tomorrow if they remain, we should hit them. Hopefully this is not a trap, but the Mavis at Tarawa should spot a CV close enough to do harm if they can spot these two CAs.

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[image]local://upfiles/37283/7D0C886647E143B0B18FC61956D32B39.jpg[/image]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

O16 made a long journey just for the hope of sighting the KB returning, and possibly getting a shot. It made contact, and is still in the hex with the CVs. Night search was added as well as ASW air during the day.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/10/2012 6:29:10 PM)

23 December 1941
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

A quiet turn. I mistrust the silence.

subs: I-121 took out another small TK near Macassar.

A Dutch sub hit a PB near Singkawang.

DEI: Lots loading for the E DEI today. Kendari invasion is on the way. An Air HQ will follow right away.

China: The escorts didn't fly to support bombing at Sinyang. We lost about 5 IJAAF bombers. We'll change it up tomorrow again.

Bombardments showed what we're facing in severel bases. Kaoping looks a bit understaffed by the KMT. In fact they're already turning around. I'll bomb and DA tomorrow.

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Ground combat at Wuchang (84,51)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 29769 troops, 264 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1063

Defending force 38701 troops, 192 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1097



Assaulting units:
40th Division
13th Tank Regiment
3rd Division
18th Ind.Mixed Brigade

Defending units:
20th Chinese Corps
53rd Chinese Corps
73rd Chinese Corps
74th Chinese Corps
19th Group Army
27th Group Army


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Ground combat at Nanchang (85,54)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 11887 troops, 80 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 493

Defending force 35859 troops, 307 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1107

Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Allied ground losses:
18 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Assaulting units:
Kyuko Naval Guard Unit
12th Ind.Mixed Brigade
11th Ind.Mixed Brigade
23rd RGC Temp. Division
17th JAAF Base Force

Defending units:
21st Chinese Corps
26th Chinese Corps
49th Chinese Corps
9th Prov Chinese Corps
72nd Chinese Corps
50th Chinese Corps
3rd New Chinese Corps
3rd War Area
30th Group Army


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Kaoping (89,42)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 29222 troops, 252 guns, 69 vehicles, Assault Value = 1108

Defending force 26139 troops, 114 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 850


Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Assaulting units:
36th Division
16th Ind.Mixed Brigade
110th Division
11th Tank Regiment

Defending units:
80th Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
Jingcha War Area


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PI: Sweeps found no fighters up at Clark as they're at Manila. We'll sweep there tomorrow, and if nothing is up, we'll have to bring i the bomber again.

Pacific: The CA turned out to be an AMC, the Monowai. Still a valuable catch. Now these ships will hurry back to Truk.

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Night Time Surface Combat, near Ocean Island at 130,130, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
CA Kako
DD Oboro
DD Uzuki
DD Kikuzuki
DD Yuzuki

Allied Ships
AMC Monowai, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk



Reduced sighting due to 25% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 25% moonlight: 8,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 8,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 8,000 yards
AMC Monowai engages DD Uzuki at 8,000 yards


___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
[image]local://upfiles/37283/5D294B795A7E4C7FBEEFE89D1D17BD61.jpg[/image]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

A image of what the Monowai could have been later in the war.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________





obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/11/2012 11:16:55 AM)

24 December 1941
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Another quiet day of preparation.

subs: I've decided to pull most subs back the PH area and set them up on the approaches to PM and the Solomons. This area is most critical now, and I'd like to see more there and get any lucky shots I can.

A contingent will also move to the area near Darwin, thinking he may be looking to reinforce the E DEI areas of Timor or even Ambon.

DEI: Forces are preparing to head into Palembang. All TFs, 3 SCTF plus the amphib and the mini-KB will convene 2 hexes to the NW of Sinkep. It should be a one day run in from there. Fingers crossed. Singkawang is down to the 40s in damage to fields and service. I might be able to even use this tomorrow for LR CAP, but most likely I'll keep them at Kuching to be safe, as that will have more supply and no damage.

A random xAK moved up to near Singkawang and sacrificed itself today. Not sure what that is about. I'll ask Torsten. If it's just to suck ammo off our SCTF that's a bit silly. Not sure why else it would be out there. The cruisers following the ambhib TF did their job and knocked it off, but did hit it with 27 shells and a torp, so that is significant ammo.

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Day Time Surface Combat, near Serasan at 56,86, Range 17,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Kinu
CL Tama
CL Oi
DD Kuri, Shell hits 1
DD Tsuga
DD Karii
DD Yanagi

Allied Ships
xAK Boero, Shell hits 27, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk



Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 21,000 yards
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 17,000 yards
CL Tama engages xAK Boero at 17,000 yards

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Malaya: Some xAKs were sitting in Sabang for some reason. Nells took care of those today.

Still no planes other than search in Singapore. Our tanks have reached Kuala Lumpur.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Sabang , at 44,70

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 10 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 25



No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
xAK Demosthenes, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Nam Yong, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk
HDML Pahalwan, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk


Allied ground losses:
6 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Port hits 12
Port fuel hits 6
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
25 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 5000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


China: The Kaoping attack only achieved a 1:2. About equal losses. That's too bad. His HQ probably made the difference. Our air strike went well and I thought we should have kicked these guys out. They're leaving anyway, so no big deal. Just more troops to heal now.

The division from Canton takes a vacated Wuchow.

Elsewhere bombing is devastating Chinese troops in the clear. An IJA division has made it to within one hex of Nanchang where it will strike the 3 seemingly small units there. They will be hit hard from the air tomorrow as well. If the attack is successful this division will join the defenders of Nanchang.

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Ground combat at Kaoping (89,42)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 30253 troops, 252 guns, 213 vehicles, Assault Value = 1113

Defending force 26036 troops, 114 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 842

Japanese adjusted assault: 451

Allied adjusted defense: 525

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1201 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 101 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled


Allied ground losses:
1000 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 120 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled


Assaulting units:
36th Division
16th Ind.Mixed Brigade
110th Division
11th Tank Regiment

Defending units:
80th Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
Jingcha War Area


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PI: Five more PTs go down today without inflicting harm.

Manila sweeps again met nothing but clear sky. I'll begin bombing tomorrow.

Naga is invaded.

Burma: It looks like there are about 35 planes in Rangoon. Some AVG and some Buffs no doubt. Tojos are nearing readiness in Bangkok. Chang Mai is building to a level 2 so I can sweep from there. Zeros will fly in soon as well.

Pacific: Nothing happening.

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[image]local://upfiles/37283/8A3F67B4BD2F45E2A15730B71A4FDB41.jpg[/image]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

xAK Demosthenes.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/13/2012 3:23:32 AM)

25 December 1941
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

subs: AVD McFarland is hit by I-175 near PH.

DEI: Near Jolo DD Peary wreaks havoc on a small amphib TF headed for Jolo. Happily, only one transport is sunk and the PB picks up the majority of the small unit being delivered to Zamboanga.

Palembang will be landed tomorrow. Some cruisers look to be around Batavia. I'm sure there will be some kind of reaction. All forces are still intact and the Sinkep Island invasion should also land giving a close airfield to support the operation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Jolo at 73,88, Range 14,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
PB Shuko Maru #2, Shell hits 1
PB Shonon Maru #10, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Seizan Maru, Shell hits 2
xAKL Nittatsu Maru, Shell hits 5
xAK Fukko Maru, Shell hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Miyako Maru, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
DD Peary

Japanese ground losses:
632 casualties reported
Squads: 12 destroyed, 28 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 17 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 8 (4 destroyed, 4 disabled)



Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 27,000 yards
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 14,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 14,000 yards

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


China: Near Nanchang the 116th Division lays waste to a Chinese Corps and a few HQs blocking the road into the city. This division will now move into the city. The troops besieging it are being hit hard from the air each day and should be weak by the time it arrives.

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Ground combat at 86,54 (near Kiukiang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 11513 troops, 102 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 400

Defending force 10820 troops, 38 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 347

Japanese adjusted assault: 371

Allied adjusted defense: 166

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: morale(-), experience(-)
Attacker: leaders(+)

Japanese ground losses:
258 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 36 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled


Allied ground losses:
5409 casualties reported
Squads: 224 destroyed, 35 disabled
Non Combat: 235 destroyed, 34 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 9 (2 destroyed, 7 disabled)
Units retreated 3


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
116th Division

Defending units:
70th Chinese Corps
23rd Group Army
32nd Group Army


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PI: B-17s hit Pescadores again. Three transports are hit, but none seriously. All ships will move to Hong Kong.

Without the Brigade sent to Palembang, the troops on Luzon are waiting for more force to move forward to Manila and Clark.

Pacific: Two minelayers will attempt to bring in supply for Tulagi. This will be a small test of reactions here as well.

Malaya: Kuala Lumpur is taken. Tanks will continue to push forward as other troops move up by rail.

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[image]local://upfiles/37283/E1A0241376144D74A48210B6F8F3B85C.jpg[/image]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The xAK Fukko Maru.
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obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/13/2012 10:36:14 AM)

26 December 1941
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

DEI: Palembang is invaded without any interference or loss of troops. No ships reacted. I feel uneasy about that. Tomorrow could be bloody. I will retire and pull to Sinkep with one force and move the mini-KB back as well. No sense risking all of this when the troops are landed.

The bombardment shows that he has been busy here, but it's all fragments from the area and not any major British or Indian units, thankfully. I'm not sure if this Brigade will be enough. i'll try an attack in a few days when disruption is gone.

Kendari is invaded. The Kendari garrison looks fairly weak. so this could fall soon. Sinkep is captured. Nothing here to oppose. This will host Nates tomorrow for added CAP in the area.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Palembang (48,91)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 6636 troops, 79 guns, 3 vehicles, Assault Value = 276

Defending force 6473 troops, 31 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 234

Japanese ground losses:
15 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



Assaulting units:
West Borneo KNIL Bn /1
Zuid KNIL Battalion
4th KNIL Landstorm Bn /1
4th KNIL Regiment
2/15 Punjab Battalion
Padang Garrison Battalion
Riouw KNIL Bn /1
ML-KNIL /1
Teloekbetoeng Base Force
Bintan Det. Base Force
106th RN Base Force /1
Djambi Base Force
Bengkalis Base Force /1
Palembang Base Force
1 ML-KNIL Aviation /1

Defending units:
65th Brigade

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


China: Several minor air battles went mostly in our favor in China.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 39th Division, at 85,53 (Kiukiang)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 4



Allied aircraft
DB-3M x 3


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
DB-3M: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
2 x DB-3M bombing from 10000 feet *
Ground Attack: 5 x 100 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 65th Chinese Corps, at 81,58 , near Kanhsien

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 48 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 10



No Japanese losses



Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 20000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Singapore , at 50,84

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 37 NM, estimated altitude 25,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 33



No Japanese losses



Aircraft Attacking:
33 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar sweeping at 20000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 59th Chinese Corps, at 85,49 , near Hankow

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 13
Ki-30 Ann x 5
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 6



Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 6


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses


Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Ki-30 Ann bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
AVG/3rd Sqn with H81-A3 (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PI: Now that the moonlight is above 50% Torsten tried a 4E night attack on the Vigan field. It did absolutely nothing. Maybe because he was going in from 10k. Or maybe the night bombing is really slowed down since the last official patch.

Sweeps finally met opposition at Manila. They did well. An interesting note is that there are P-39s here. I had no idea he would be able to upgrade those groups to that plane. I hope I don't see 50 of them soon, as he has so many more of those than anything else right now, and they are good in defense.

The final kill ratio was about 2.5 to 1 by my reports anyway.

A few bombers and Nates were hit going in later, but losses are light. I hate to lose any bombers at any point, but with our rule about not LR CAPing the hex while bombing I'l leave to get used to it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid spotted at 22 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27



Allied aircraft
P-26A x 6
P-35A x 9
P-39D Airacobra x 4
P-40B Warhawk x 12
P-40E Warhawk x 26


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-26A: 1 destroyed
P-35A: 1 destroyed
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 5 destroyed


CAP engaged:
24th PG/3rd PS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
24th PG/17th PS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Raid is overhead
24th PG/20th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
35th PG/21st PS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
35th PG/34th PS with P-35A (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
6th PS PAAC with P-26A (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 27400 , scrambling fighters to 27000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
24th PG/HqS with P-39D Airacobra (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Raid is overhead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 86 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3



Allied aircraft
P-26A x 4
P-35A x 2
P-40B Warhawk x 6
P-40E Warhawk x 10


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-26A: 1 destroyed
P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 76 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 20
Ki-27b Nate x 29
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 8



Allied aircraft
P-26A x 2
P-35A x 2
P-40B Warhawk x 5
P-40E Warhawk x 8


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-27b Nate: 4 destroyed
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses



Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 10

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 6000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
7 x Ki-48-Ib Lily bombing from 6000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 100 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Pacific: Guam was captured.

Burma: There are constant transports moving in the area. I have to start sweeping here soon. 38 fighters are listed at Rangoon. Tojos need Chang Mai to get to a level 2 base, which will still be at least a week. That's about when I can see the chance to move a good number of zeros here to begin flying over Rangoon.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
[image]local://upfiles/37283/27E281F9FA7A49ECA9E00A442A9F6EED.jpg[/image]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The last days of the P-26.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________





Q-Ball -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/13/2012 2:01:36 PM)

I think you got Palembang. While I would have brought more than 65th Bde, or a better quality formation, the units he has in Palembang are fragments and generally really bad. The Landstrom Bns are useless at this stage, only the Punjabs have any real fight.
A single shock attack should end it.

I am in favor of a Palembang move early for one other reason: It's a good airfield for covering a move on Java




obvert -> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) (6/13/2012 2:53:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I think you got Palembang. While I would have brought more than 65th Bde, or a better quality formation, the units he has in Palembang are fragments and generally really bad. The Landstrom Bns are useless at this stage, only the Punjabs have any real fight.
A single shock attack should end it.

I am in favor of a Palembang move early for one other reason: It's a good airfield for covering a move on Java


Thanks. I'm wary of shocking as I don't want to trash the oil. He's now moved out all air cover, so I'll bomb the ground troops and then DA. This might take several attacks, but I hope will be more gentle to the infrastructure.

If I'm wrong and extending the siege will be worse, let me know. I've always had luck getting most of Palembang intact, so I'm not really sure the conditions most likely to blow up oil wells.




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