Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (Full Version)

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Rusty1961 -> Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 3:15:48 AM)

Okay, in one of my two games my opponent made the mistake of sending not just his Kates to bomb a port in Eastern India via level bombing (losing 11), but he accidentally sent every Val from KB to attack the same Flak-trap. Price: 83 Vals shot down.

It is May of '42. How will these Val loses impact the striking power of KB over the long-haul? Basically, how long will it take him to make good on those losses?

I never play the Japanese side so I am clueless on how this will impact his main strike-force.


Rusty




JeffroK -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 3:22:15 AM)

There should be a HR about AAA!!

This is a major loss of both airframes and pilots, not fatal as the JFB are usually looking at replacing Val.

The answer is very dependent on his aircraft building plans.




Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 3:39:43 AM)

Pilot replacement may be an issue. There aren't many land based dive bomber units to be used for training NavB. There may not be enough replacement pilots unless he trains his TB pilots in NavB as well as NavT. If that's the case, he may have to dig into his TB pilots to fill the DB ranks.




Rusty1961 -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 6:11:42 AM)

Mike,

But will he have to remove his CVs from the front-lines to train up the new pilots? And if so, for how long?

Thanks everyone for their answers.




Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 11:34:37 AM)

Rusty, he would have to remove the CVs from the front lines -or- pull the Val daitai off the CVs if he uses those daitai to train pilots. There are several land based Val daitai and chutai that can be used to train Val pilots. If he had been using the land based units to train from the beginning of the war, he'd have enough reserve pilots to replace most or all of the pilots. It all depends on his preparation up to this point, as well as his losses. It's really impossible to know for sure.

Edit: My estimate (for planning purposes) is that it takes about 3 months to adequately train a replacement on map.




ny59giants -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 1:57:12 PM)

If I was to lose that many Vals at that point in time, I would have a few options. Pull off two to four Val units to retrain and replace with extra Zero air units and/or Kates that will just use bombs. Until the re-sizing that happens on July 1st, he still has plenty of capacity within KB. Since you can place 5 air units on a heavy CV, I have learned to customize my carrier capable units to mix and match so I can have more flexibility.




Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 2:06:53 PM)

That's a good point. I tend not to rearrange the daitai on the carriers. I wouldn't have thought of that. Need to add that to my list of comments from various players to remember that. Thanks!




ny59giants -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 2:43:40 PM)

At start KB looks like this:
Akagi (81) - 18Z-18V-27K = 63 (pull off 18V and replace with 27 or 36 plane Zero)
Kaga (71) - 18Z-27V-27K = 72
Hiryu (71) - 18Z-18V-18K = 54 (pull off 18V and replace with Zero or Kates)
Soryu (63) - 18Z-18V-18K = 54 (pull off 18V and replace with Zero or Kates)
Shokaku (72) - 18Z-27V-27K = 72
Zuikaku (72) - 18Z-27V-27K = 72
Ryujo (48) - 12Z-12K = 24 (resize to 36Z-13K) I like her with KB due to fighters

Hiryu and Soryu would get the 18V pulled and replaced with 2 x 27 plane Zero air units, at minimum. Why?? As Allied player I place an extra 18 plane F4F Marine air unit of each of my 5 American CVs to bring their numbers up to 45 fighters each. The bottom line is survivability for each side and their precious CVs.

Edit - I am willing to take on KB "IF" there is no modification to her air capability by adding/subtracting some air units before July '42 and before the Brits have to send her CVs back to Winston. I can get 5 American CVs plus the 3 Brit CVs with my extra Marine fighters trained up by April '42 so I have near 250 fighters vs 110 Zero. If I can get my CVs close enough (4 hexes or closer) to use my old Devestators so it is a knife fight, then I will take my chances (no LBA involvement). [;)]

I did so vs only 4 of KB CVs and sunk three in late April '42.




Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 3:17:01 PM)

What's the resizing on 1 Jul? 3/8 - 3/8 - 2/8?




Chickenboy -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 3:39:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

If I was to lose that many Vals at that point in time, I would have a few options. Pull off two to four Val units to retrain and replace with extra Zero air units and/or Kates that will just use bombs. Until the re-sizing that happens on July 1st, he still has plenty of capacity within KB. Since you can place 5 air units on a heavy CV, I have learned to customize my carrier capable units to mix and match so I can have more flexibility.

Good comment. I agree. This would be around such devastating short-term Val losses.




Cavalry Corp -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 3:54:20 PM)

Will the Kate acheive the same as the Val with bombs
???
seems to me that a DB would always be better against ships than a Kate with bombs - perhaps someone can clarify that - you would assume that the Kate pilots have poor level bombing skill and high NT and the Val the other way round??


The Kate is for carrying Torps agaianst ships and most CV have enough torps for two strikes do they not?




Erkki -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 4:05:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Will the Kate acheive the same as the Val with bombs
???
seems to me that a DB would always be better against ships than a Kate with bombs - perhaps someone can clarify that - you would assume that the Kate pilots have poor level bombing skill and high NT and the Val the other way round??


The Kate is for carrying Torps agaianst ships and most CV have enough torps for two strikes do they not?


B5N carries 2 x 250kg as far as 8 hex while D3A only carries a single 250kg SAP to 6 or 5 hex depending on model(D3A2 doesnt fly as far), and only 2 x 60kg a hex further. All the initial KB B5N pilots have pretty good NavB so they are in many ways just as good or better...

EDIT: yeah I think D3As are a lot more accurate in actually dropping the bombs, but the range really limits their usefulness and its still just a single small bomb...




Cavalry Corp -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 4:17:40 PM)

Is level bombing as good as DB?

If it was then all the ships IRL would only have Kates???

I take note of what is said here though and will go through the KB to see how mine looks.




Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 4:22:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Is level bombing as good as DB?

If it was then all the ships IRL would only have Kates???

I take note of what is said here though and will go through the KB to see how mine looks.


Less accurate but you'll take far less losses to flak.




Erkki -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 4:25:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Is level bombing as good as DB?

If it was then all the ships IRL would only have Kates???

I take note of what is said here though and will go through the KB to see how mine looks.


I don't think it is, maybe half to a third the hits with similarly skilled pilots, but B5N's considerably better range and double the bomb load help a lot...




Cavalry Corp -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 4:35:05 PM)

But the Val is a bit togher than the Kate?




crsutton -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 4:42:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Is level bombing as good as DB?

If it was then all the ships IRL would only have Kates???

I take note of what is said here though and will go through the KB to see how mine looks.



I would not bother to set my devestators on torpedo attack in 1942. They have a much better chance of hitting with level bombs. But I think the Japanese player would always opt for torpedoes. Because torpedoes kill ships.





Erkki -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/9/2011 4:44:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

But the Val is a bit togher than the Kate?


Dive bombers release very low and so suffer more from AAA as every gun down there will be in range. If the D3A is made to level bomb(set to 7-9kft) it'll be as inaccurate as the B5N.




Cavalry Corp -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/10/2011 11:41:39 AM)

So dive bomb is above what feet??? 10k?




PaxMondo -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/10/2011 12:01:50 PM)

10K-15K inclusive IIRC.




seille -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/10/2011 1:44:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

At start KB looks like this:
Akagi (81) - 18Z-18V-27K = 63 (pull off 18V and replace with 27 or 36 plane Zero)
Kaga (71) - 18Z-27V-27K = 72
Hiryu (71) - 18Z-18V-18K = 54 (pull off 18V and replace with Zero or Kates)
Soryu (63) - 18Z-18V-18K = 54 (pull off 18V and replace with Zero or Kates)
Shokaku (72) - 18Z-27V-27K = 72
Zuikaku (72) - 18Z-27V-27K = 72
Ryujo (48) - 12Z-12K = 24 (resize to 36Z-13K) I like her with KB due to fighters

Hiryu and Soryu would get the 18V pulled and replaced with 2 x 27 plane Zero air units, at minimum. Why?? As Allied player I place an extra 18 plane F4F Marine air unit of each of my 5 American CVs to bring their numbers up to 45 fighters each. The bottom line is survivability for each side and their precious CVs.

Edit - I am willing to take on KB "IF" there is no modification to her air capability by adding/subtracting some air units before July '42 and before the Brits have to send her CVs back to Winston. I can get 5 American CVs plus the 3 Brit CVs with my extra Marine fighters trained up by April '42 so I have near 250 fighters vs 110 Zero. If I can get my CVs close enough (4 hexes or closer) to use my old Devestators so it is a knife fight, then I will take my chances (no LBA involvement). [;)]

I did so vs only 4 of KB CVs and sunk three in late April '42.


I can only agree to what NY59Giants wrote since i was the poor guy who lost his 3 jap fleet carriers this way. Additional fighters are always good for the japs.
Wasn´t careful enough and paid a high price. Very high.....




JeffroK -> RE: Japanese Val Slaughter: How long to rebuild (11/10/2011 9:12:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Is level bombing as good as DB?

If it was then all the ships IRL would only have Kates???

I take note of what is said here though and will go through the KB to see how mine looks.


If you have just lost most of your Val's this is irrelevant.

Plus Kate will be torpedo capable which is more devastating anyway.




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