JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (Full Version)

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Rusty1961 -> JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 2:05:27 AM)

Okay, I don't think my Japanese opponent can take Palembang from me until early '43.

He has launched two attacks against my "festung" and has about 1100AV to my-get this- 21,000 defensive AV (everyone has Palembang as their target and the x3 defense). His first attack cost him 11,000 KIA to my 1,000 and his next deliberate attack a week or so later cost him 5,000 to my 1,000. Of course, supplies aren't an issue for me.

Thus, given his push into Burma (he still hasn't taken Rangoon), I don't see him taking Palembang till he secures Burma.

My question is this: What impact on his economy and movement of units will he be subjected to given his failure to secure this vital piece of real estate?

He isn't doing any moving in China. We fought, bled, and withdrew to our respective lines. No change really since the beginning of the war.

And how can I take advantage of his postponing of his attack on Palembang with his new push in Burma.

Take care!

Rusty[:)]




Chickenboy -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 3:03:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Okay, I don't think my Japanese opponent can take Palembang from me until early '43.

He has launched two attacks against my "festung" and has about 1100AV to my-get this- 21,000 defensive AV (everyone has Palembang as their target and the x3 defense). His first attack cost him 11,000 KIA to my 1,000 and his next deliberate attack a week or so later cost him 5,000 to my 1,000. Of course, supplies aren't an issue for me.

Thus, given his push into Burma (he still hasn't taken Rangoon), I don't see him taking Palembang till he secures Burma.

My question is this: What impact on his economy and movement of units will he be subjected to given his failure to secure this vital piece of real estate?

He isn't doing any moving in China. We fought, bled, and withdrew to our respective lines. No change really since the beginning of the war.

And how can I take advantage of his postponing of his attack on Palembang with his new push in Burma.

Take care!

Rusty[:)]

Allies with 21,000 AV in early 1942? Where? I didn't think the Allies had that much AV on the entire board. [&:]




Chickenboy -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 3:36:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Okay, I don't think my Japanese opponent can take Palembang from me until early '43.

He has launched two attacks against my "festung" and has about 1100AV to my-get this- 21,000 defensive AV (everyone has Palembang as their target and the x3 defense). His first attack cost him 11,000 KIA to my 1,000 and his next deliberate attack a week or so later cost him 5,000 to my 1,000. Of course, supplies aren't an issue for me.

Thus, given his push into Burma (he still hasn't taken Rangoon), I don't see him taking Palembang till he secures Burma.

My question is this: What impact on his economy and movement of units will he be subjected to given his failure to secure this vital piece of real estate?

He isn't doing any moving in China. We fought, bled, and withdrew to our respective lines. No change really since the beginning of the war.

And how can I take advantage of his postponing of his attack on Palembang with his new push in Burma.

Take care!

Rusty[:)]

Allies with 21,000 AV in early 1942? Where? I didn't think the Allies had that much AV on the entire board. [&:]

Sorry. Didn't answer the original question: Without securing Palembang, he's done. He simply must have that oil and fuel before 1943.

The Japanese have-maybe-six months petroleum reserves in the home islands that they can fall back on. Balikpapan, Soerbaja and other production sites on Java (I assume he hasn't taken Java yet?), some other Sumatra ports, Magwe, Miri and Tarakan will help him stave off the inevitable somewhat, but he's got to have Palembang to make it past early 1943.




DivePac88 -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 3:49:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

He has launched two attacks against my "festung" and has about 1100AV to my-get this- 21,000 defensive AV (everyone has Palembang as their target and the x3 defense).



So you have 7000AV, with 3 forts defending Palembang right? So the other bases on Sumatra and Java must be bare of troops. I would just Isolate you then roll you with a couple of divisions after Malaya is finished.




ChezDaJez -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 5:49:20 AM)

quote:

My question is this: What impact on his economy and movement of units will he be subjected to given his failure to secure this vital piece of real estate?


I am in this situation in my game against Canoerebel. He still holds southern Sumatra including Palembang, Padang, Benkolen and Oosthaven. The denial of the oil will hurt but at the moment Tarakan and Balikpapn coupled with numerous smaller oilfileds are meeting my needs. The part I am worried about is the severe restriction these forces have placed on my movements. I am that I am unable to disband any major surface units for repair in any port within 4e range of Oosthaven. I am severely restricted in what units I can operate near Sumatra. Anything larger than a DD generates unwanted attention. Muchof the SRA is denied to the Japanese player becasue of this.

Unfortunately I will never be able to take it because I simply do not have the land forces to overcome the 40+ land units at Palembang and Oosthave without stripping China, the SRA and Burma to the bone. I estimate that I would need upwards of 6000 AV and probably much more than that to dent the defense. Add to that the 400+ allied fighters and 200+ allied bombers that months of recon indicate are parked at Oosthaven and you end up with a fortress Sumatra that could never have existed in real life.

I have never encountered this tactic before and my hat is off to Canoerebel. It was a totally unexpected move. But it is one that I will develop a house rule for in future games. The house rule may either prohibit its use or simply remove any impediment to the Japanese player blitzing Sumatra before the fall of Singapore. This is not a gamey tactic as I do not consider it an exploit of the game mechanics. I do believe that it is so far removed from any historical possibility as to make it's real life WWII use a fantasy.

Chez




JeffroK -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 6:20:23 AM)

New HR

Allied players aren't allowed to.......................................................

You are playing a totally ahistorical scenario aren't you?




Rusty1961 -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 6:21:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

But it is one that I will develop a house rule for in future games. The house rule may either prohibit its use or simply remove any impediment to the Japanese player blitzing Sumatra before the fall of Singapore. This is not a gamey tactic as I do not consider it an exploit of the game mechanics. I do believe that it is so far removed from any historical possibility as to make it's real life WWII use a fantasy.

Chez


You don't need a HR for this. As the Japanese there are at least to different tactics that can be used to prevent this.






Rusty1961 -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 6:50:05 AM)

quote:

Allies with 21,000 AV in early 1942? Where? I didn't think the Allies had that much AV on the entire board.


The 21,000 is after all modifications have been added to the defense. Twice he's attacked and twice I've had an AV of 21,000. He's lost 16,000 men in total, so he's down a division in men.




Alfred -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 6:59:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

My question is this: What impact on his economy and movement of units will he be subjected to given his failure to secure this vital piece of real estate?


I am in this situation in my game against Canoerebel. He still holds southern Sumatra including Palembang, Padang, Benkolen and Oosthaven. The denial of the oil will hurt but at the moment Tarakan and Balikpapn coupled with numerous smaller oilfileds are meeting my needs. The part I am worried about is the severe restriction these forces have placed on my movements. I am that I am unable to disband any major surface units for repair in any port within 4e range of Oosthaven. I am severely restricted in what units I can operate near Sumatra. Anything larger than a DD generates unwanted attention. Muchof the SRA is denied to the Japanese player becasue of this.

Unfortunately I will never be able to take it because I simply do not have the land forces to overcome the 40+ land units at Palembang and Oosthave without stripping China, the SRA and Burma to the bone. I estimate that I would need upwards of 6000 AV and probably much more than that to dent the defense. Add to that the 400+ allied fighters and 200+ allied bombers that months of recon indicate are parked at Oosthaven and you end up with a fortress Sumatra that could never have existed in real life.

I have never encountered this tactic before and my hat is off to Canoerebel. It was a totally unexpected move. But it is one that I will develop a house rule for in future games. The house rule may either prohibit its use or simply remove any impediment to the Japanese player blitzing Sumatra before the fall of Singapore. This is not a gamey tactic as I do not consider it an exploit of the game mechanics. I do believe that it is so far removed from any historical possibility as to make it's real life WWII use a fantasy.

Chez


No need for a HR, the situation you face is largely self inflicted.

You were adament that you would not read the relevant AARs. There are AARs which discuss in great detail how to take advantage of an Allied festung Palembang commitment. Even in your own dormant AAR, where you placed strict conditions on the kind of advice you wanted, you were advised in general terms how to avoid the problem from getting out of hand.

Now the situation might be too late too retrieve. Based on your post there remains a basic question which you have not yet addressed. You say to dent the festung Palembang defences you would have to stripping other theatres to the bone. Yet you also lament about the difficulties caused by the festung Palembang. Well the question is really quite simple.

Are these other theatres more important than Sumatra?


If the answer is in the affirmative, then carry on as you currently are. If the answer is in the negative, ie the overall health of the Japanese war effort is more adversely affected by the Allies retaining their current position in Sumatra, then you would be stripping to the bone the other theatres.

Bottom line, none of this requires a HR. As I said, the situation is largely self inflicted. Not a problem if you think there are more important objectives than eliminating the Allied position in Sumatra; not so benign if you believe Palembang is more important than the other objectives but refuse to allocate the resources to deal with Palembang.

Alfred




1EyedJacks -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 7:33:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

Allies with 21,000 AV in early 1942? Where? I didn't think the Allies had that much AV on the entire board.


The 21,000 is after all modifications have been added to the defense. Twice he's attacked and twice I've had an AV of 21,000. He's lost 16,000 men in total, so he's down a division in men.


16k of squads destroyed? Plus hvy losses in gunz? Do you have air superiority over Palembang? Just curious...

TTFN,

Mike




Puhis -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 8:41:01 AM)

I think this shows one of the drawback of the supply system. Palembang can self-support huge number of troops just because there's big refinery.

I guess men there have well oiled digestion...




Rainer79 -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 8:20:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I think this shows one of the drawback of the supply system. Palembang can self-support huge number of troops just because there's big refinery.

I guess men there have well oiled digestion...



Of course that refinery could be bombed into the ground to leave large numbers of allies starving.

Refinery capacity is not normally a bottle-neck of japanese production.




LoBaron -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 8:30:42 AM)

Fortress Palembang can and has to be avoided early in game. If it is already set up, whether you capture it or not, the troop investement
will hurt you so much that it will cost you months of the Grand Campaign. Its one of the best time buyers for the Allies.

The point where you realize you need massed troop concentration to get rid of Palembang its already too late.

That said, I think that if you do not read the forums all the time and shuffle through every more or less heated discussion, or read every
AAR in vincinity, chances are quite ok that you do not notice that danger in avance.

A HR is not neccesary if you know what can happen. You simply cut it off early and move in aggressively. Then the same strategy that favours the Allies
in case of success can end up in major CW/ABDA losses. Its a gamble for both sides.

On the other hand the ability to support a whole army by Palembang ressources alone is ahistorical, so if its ok to implement a HR against
low level HB attacks, why not against Fortress Palembang? Matter of tast IMHO...




LoBaron -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 8:34:29 AM)

Good point. Although it still might be something equally irritating to the Japanese player as redeploying huge armies to just conquer that
small rotten base. [:)]




Chris21wen -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 8:54:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

...... or simply remove any impediment to the Japanese player blitzing Sumatra before the fall of Singapore.


Can I ask why the Japanese cannot do this?




Andrew Brown -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 11:08:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I think this shows one of the drawback of the supply system. Palembang can self-support huge number of troops just because there's big refinery.

I guess men there have well oiled digestion...



Indeed. And an oversight on my part. With hindsight, I would not have had refineries output any supply points - just fuel, and this is my recommendation for any modders out there.

Andrew




Erkki -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 11:17:39 AM)

In the betas from at least p8 and onwards refineries dont generate supply.




LoBaron -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 11:20:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

In the betas from at least p8 and onwards refineries dont generate supply.


There goes Fortress Palembang. [&o]




koniu -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 11:32:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

In the betas from at least p8 and onwards refineries dont generate supply.


There goes Fortress Palembang. [&o]

quote:

There goes Fortress Palembang.


I am playing q4 now and they still do. I am not remember in what version i have start my PBEM. There is an passibility that no supplies from refineries applies only for new games.

[image]local://upfiles/37745/2FFD7362C691414FAB6AB0E6659DBE51.jpg[/image]




n01487477 -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 11:34:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

In the betas from at least p8 and onwards refineries dont generate supply.

This is wrong - they do unless you are playing an economic mod.
[edit]beaten by koniu [sm=sign0063.gif]
[edit2]I think Erkki is thinking about LI being able to be turned off. This is the change. Michael has no need to change this as it can be manipulated in the editor.




Erkki -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 11:38:10 AM)

OK... In my p8 Da Babes they definitely dont...

EDIT: Heres Medan with undamaged oil wells and refineries. No land units so nothing happens with supply until I decided to use the supply pull to move some supply towards the northern end of Sumatra where its needed. Meanwhile, fuel is still generated and 2 TFs picked up full loads:



[image]local://upfiles/34100/2E9C26BC1F234CD89B06821BC812180B.jpg[/image]




Sardaukar -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 11:46:27 AM)

I think in DaBigBabes, refineries ability to create supply has been turned off.




obvert -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 12:33:03 PM)

If you have Palembang and a few of the ports nearby it's not that hard to bring in masses of supplies. The troops got there somehow afterall. Java is usually the last area captured by the Japanese, so that leaves lots of sealanes open unless teh KB camps outside of Oosthaven for a month. Yes Palembang makes some supply, but probably not enough for the kind of fortress that could withstand an attack with massed air attacks.

Refineries should make supplies in game terms if planes are flown based on supply. Where alse would aviation fuel come from?

It seems that if the Allies in the war had thought it important enought to bring in a few divisions to secure Palembang, they might have also been able to bring in a few ship loads of canned goods and bullets.




Sardaukar -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 1:17:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

If you have Palembang and a few of the ports nearby it's not that hard to bring in masses of supplies. The troops got there somehow afterall. Java is usually the last area captured by the Japanese, so that leaves lots of sealanes open unless teh KB camps outside of Oosthaven for a month. Yes Palembang makes some supply, but probably not enough for the kind of fortress that could withstand an attack with massed air attacks.

Refineries should make supplies in game terms if planes are flown based on supply. Where alse would aviation fuel come from?

It seems that if the Allies in the war had thought it important enought to bring in a few divisions to secure Palembang, they might have also been able to bring in a few ship loads of canned goods and bullets.


That's why Japanese player might consider using part of his CV forces in DEI to prevent both massive reinforcement and redeployment/evacuation. Could for example split of 2 CVs from Kido Butai and put them together with CVLs. That sort of "mini-KB" is usually enough to interdict sea lanes without actually even being there all the time. Mere threat of having divisions worth of troops sunk by it is usually enough to prevent Fortress strategies. And it'd still leave 4 CVs available to counter US carriers in Pacific.




KenchiSulla -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 1:47:19 PM)

If I remember correctly (has been 18 months ago since I captured Sumatra) I developed betty bases as quickly as possible as far forward as possible to block the DEI. You can also use BB and CA TFs to enforce a blockade. Allied are not capable of effective ship attack by LBA air througout the most of 1942...




Chickenboy -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 2:00:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

My question is this: What impact on his economy and movement of units will he be subjected to given his failure to secure this vital piece of real estate?


I am in this situation in my game against Canoerebel. He still holds southern Sumatra including Palembang, Padang, Benkolen and Oosthaven. The denial of the oil will hurt but at the moment Tarakan and Balikpapn coupled with numerous smaller oilfileds are meeting my needs. The part I am worried about is the severe restriction these forces have placed on my movements. I am that I am unable to disband any major surface units for repair in any port within 4e range of Oosthaven. I am severely restricted in what units I can operate near Sumatra. Anything larger than a DD generates unwanted attention. Muchof the SRA is denied to the Japanese player becasue of this.

Unfortunately I will never be able to take it because I simply do not have the land forces to overcome the 40+ land units at Palembang and Oosthave without stripping China, the SRA and Burma to the bone. I estimate that I would need upwards of 6000 AV and probably much more than that to dent the defense. Add to that the 400+ allied fighters and 200+ allied bombers that months of recon indicate are parked at Oosthaven and you end up with a fortress Sumatra that could never have existed in real life.

I have never encountered this tactic before and my hat is off to Canoerebel. It was a totally unexpected move. But it is one that I will develop a house rule for in future games. The house rule may either prohibit its use or simply remove any impediment to the Japanese player blitzing Sumatra before the fall of Singapore. This is not a gamey tactic as I do not consider it an exploit of the game mechanics. I do believe that it is so far removed from any historical possibility as to make it's real life WWII use a fantasy.

Chez

Chez,

I wanted to follow your AAR vs. Canoerebel. Indeed, I restricted myself from reading his AAR in an effort to provide your Imperial command with any needed advice. Still haven't read it past the first page or so. I won't allow myself to do so now, either.

How did this happen-fortress Palembang?

My initial response would be that this would be an ideal opportunity to sink a multitude of laden Allied transports, destroy whole armies and cut off this attempt. Through your submarines, forward positioned netties and surface forces, were you not able to detect this build up? What was KB doing if not liquidating enemy surface forces around Sumatra? Doesn't scenario 2 allow you greater access to infantry, support vessels and earlier airframe development?

If he's got 400 fighters and 200 bombers there, the cupboard must surely be bare elsewhere, no? Has his (over)commitment here impacted your capture and development of bases further afield?

Why do you think that there needs to be a HR restricting Sumatra's invasion until the end of the Singapore campaign? If / when Singapore is cut off and unable to project a threat to the region, then the sky is the limit for Japanese activity in the area. IMO, this is regardless if the paperwork has been signed for the surrender or not.




Chickenboy -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 2:05:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I think this shows one of the drawback of the supply system. Palembang can self-support huge number of troops just because there's big refinery.

I guess men there have well oiled digestion...



Indeed. And an oversight on my part. With hindsight, I would not have had refineries output any supply points - just fuel, and this is my recommendation for any modders out there.

Andrew

Would there be a recommended change to the fuel/supply numbers produced by oil refining in that case? In other words, do you also suggest that the fuel number goes up by one (10:0 fuel:supply produced) or that it stays at current value of 9 (thereby making a 9:0 ratio)?




Erkki -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 2:19:35 PM)

I simply used Kuching invasion force strengthened by some additional LCUs and AAA and aviation support units from Saigon and Hainan, supported by MKB. MKB missed all USN warships escaping PI but Palembang was Japanese and protected by fighters and a good number of heavy AAA guns by December 18th(IIRC). I could have invaded it 2 or 3 days earlier but I did some mistakes with the TF orders so I had to load one of the troop TFs twice, plus one TF started to retire from the staging base back towards Hainan.

edit: looks like it was December 22nd, close enough. [8D]




KenchiSulla -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 2:21:37 PM)

Singkawang is what I used (Size 6 airfield), and it is great for that purpose. You don't even need to capture Singapore before you can snatch it. Just count the hexes. (escorted) Torpedo range for Betties is 14.. No way allies are going to be able to reinforce Palembang very heavily...

And this is in scenario 1, would be even easier in scenario 2..

[image]local://upfiles/30342/3549DE1261AD4892ADF87259DD53D350.jpg[/image]




KenchiSulla -> RE: JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42 (11/6/2011 2:35:25 PM)

Back on topic.. Without Palembang it will be very hard to fuel your industry and your fleet. There will be absolutely 0 room to build a reserve ( I try to maintain about 6 months worth of reserve, guestimated by having enough fuel to run my slowed down industry for a year)..

This is my reserve in july 1943

[image]local://upfiles/30342/153C59E7444647C38193ACF23936E678.jpg[/image]




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