RE: Closing the Med (Full Version)

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Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 11:59:49 AM)

Okay, I have a question for you strategists out there. I'm still running that test game of the Global War scenario, trying to push it as far as I can . . . all the way to 1948 (extended game optional rule) if possible. The progress has been slow due to other work I've been doing, but I've gotten back to it this past week, and I want to know what I should do with some CW naval units.

I'll lay out the situation in this post and the next one.

This is the same game in which the USSR made a disastrous attack in Persia that cost it the HQ-A Zhukov (in the first turn!), and also the same game in which Germany found itself in position to conquer France, instead of declaring Vichy -- and to make a strike at Spain.

It is now the beginning of S/O '40, Zhukov has just returned, but the J/A '40 turn was horrible for the Allies. While the aggressive play by the Axis did allow the USA to Pass the War Appropriations Bill quite early, the Allies lost a lot of units it really couldn't afford to lose:

(Notice there are 4 Allied HQ units that were crushed under the Axis boot)

[image]local://upfiles/38062/D06548A7CF254A3382252EFC883FC066.jpg[/image]




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 12:11:58 PM)

In the final Axis impulse of the last turn, Italy managed to take Suez to cut off supply from India, and is almost certain to take Cairo in the first impulse of this turn. (I should note that I'm using an odd combination of Optional Rules for supply here):
[image]local://upfiles/38062/A8D5904B0C974AF7A03CD41DB4DEC8BF.jpg[/image]
Other items of note:

  • The Balkans are Axis-controlled, with Greece conquered by Italy and Yugoslavia aligned to Italy
  • Syria and Palestine have been conquered by Italy, and Iraq is aligned to Italy
  • Germany has conquered Cyprus, has HQ-I von Leeb in Syria, an INF in Iraq, and 2 more units waiting in Greece for Italian TRS to take them to Syria this impulse (trying to get Turkey through the back door)
  • Persia was finally conquered by the USSR last turn, but is open to attack unless reinforced
  • Italy dominates the Med sea areas
  • Things are going badly for the Commonwealth in Spain, and Germany can probably take Gibraltar this turn (CW got stuck with too many units in Malta, and not enough units to defend Gibraltar)
  • The Commonwealth has 14 naval units in a well-defended Malta (soon to be OOS), and 19 naval units (including 2 TRS) in a weakly-defended Gibraltar (soon to be in enemy hands)

So, here's the question: Does the CW do whatever it can to evacuate the Naval units from Malta? It will mean fighting through the Italian Navy, but should be possible. And, should the CW try to use the TRS in Gibraltar to reinforce it with the Land units it has in Malta?

I'm assuming the answer to the first question is "Yes". The second question, however, poses a problem -- at risk are not only the 2 TRS that the CW would rather not lose, but also the fleet that will be required to protect them. If things go poorly, as many as 33 ships could get stuck OOS in the Med. That makes them useless, since Isolated Reorganization Limits are being used. That's a significant portion of the Allied fleet.

However, can the CW simply give Gibraltar to Germany? Does it need to do whatever it can to try to keep the Med open? I'd really appreciate your thoughts.




AstroBlues -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 12:59:36 PM)

I cannot remember where I read this, but I read an Allied strategy would be just to abandon the med and Gibraltar giving the US many entry chits and having them come into the war a lot quicker.





BallyJ -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 1:04:38 PM)

In this situation I would try to reinforce Gibralta
with everything I had.
Also try to hold Er Rif in Nth A.
you can try to run the blockade in the west Med.
Get the fleet out of the Med \
Make him fight for Gibralta.
If the US has passed War A bill
every turn bring the jolly green giant closer.
regards John




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 1:16:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BallyJ

In this situation I would try to reinforce Gibralta
with everything I had.
Also try to hold Er Rif in Nth A.
you can try to run the blockade in the west Med.
Get the fleet out of the Med \
Make him fight for Gibralta.
If the US has passed War A bill
every turn bring the jolly green giant closer.
regards John

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the "Er Rif" reference in North Africa.

Part of the problem here is that the CW and France do not co-operate, since France was conquered instead of Vichy being installed.




Extraneous -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 2:20:55 PM)

Er Rif - A hilly region along the coast of northern Morocco. The Berber peoples of the area remained fiercely independent until they were subdued by French and Spanish forces (1925-1926).




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 2:36:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Er Rif - A hilly region along the coast of northern Morocco. The Berber peoples of the area remained fiercely independent until they were subdued by French and Spanish forces (1925-1926).

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that, and I was trying to find some notation on the MWiF map, thinking it was there. [X(]




composer99 -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 7:30:39 PM)

They're referring to the Spanish Morocco aligned minor.




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 7:35:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronster

I cannot remember where I read this, but I read an Allied strategy would be just to abandon the med and Gibraltar giving the US many entry chits and having them come into the war a lot quicker.



At best, I think this would only give the US 2 chits, and in my game the roll for Suez has already been made -- and failed to add any chits.




composer99 -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 7:37:24 PM)

Otherwise, I agree with BallyJ:

- get the Royal Navy out of the Med asap
- if you can keep a couple of elite (white-print) units in Malta while also reinforcing Gibraltar I recommend it; otherwise stuff Gib to the gills (feel free to risk the TRS to bring units from Malta to Gib - you are building extras, right?) and put an HQ and artillery in the adjacent hex in Spanish Morocco
- fight to keep sea supply to Gib open

If US has passed war appropriations entry into the war is looking pretty good.

Once the US is in, it will be a whole lot easier to fight back into the Med if the Allies control Gib than if they don't.




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 7:40:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

They're referring to the Spanish Morocco aligned minor.

Well, in defending Spanish Morocco, if I had the troops available to put there, I'd put them in Gibraltar instead. The problem is that I don't have anything to use as reinforcements other than the 3 units in Malta. I do have an HQ in Plymouth, but I don't know if I can get him there in time.

Spain will probably be conquered at the end of the turn, so Spanish Morocco will be one option for a new Spanish home country, though I don't think that's a brilliant plan. Algeria is already Italian, and Morocco is going to have to be defended (it is the current French home country).

Either I'm a terrible Allied player -- even against myself -- or the co-ordinated lightening strike by Germany and Italy was just too much to handle this early in the game for the CW.
-----
Edit: By the way, I used one of Peter's AIO setups for Spain on this one, and the defense of Bilbao is strong enough that it will probably take an O-chit to crack. Fortunately for Germany, they won't be needing it to take Gibraltar. Another one or two will have to be built before Barbarossa, but there is time for that.




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 7:57:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Otherwise, I agree with BallyJ:

- get the Royal Navy out of the Med asap
- if you can keep a couple of elite (white-print) units in Malta while also reinforcing Gibraltar I recommend it; otherwise stuff Gib to the gills (feel free to risk the TRS to bring units from Malta to Gib - you are building extras, right?) and put an HQ and artillery in the adjacent hex in Spanish Morocco
- fight to keep sea supply to Gib open

If US has passed war appropriations entry into the war is looking pretty good.

Once the US is in, it will be a whole lot easier to fight back into the Med if the Allies control Gib than if they don't.

I laid down 3 TRS at the end of last turn for the CW, but what I lack right now is land units. Most of my selections have ended up being Indian units, which puts them on the wrong side of Africa to be very useful. It got bad enough that the previous turn I built a dinky CAV just to be sure I would have reinforcements coming into the UK. The CW also has 4 units trapped (isolated) in the Middle-East with no way to get them out.

I can get 2 units from Malta to Gibraltar, plus the HQ to Morocco, I think. But it's going to take 2 impulses to get it done (one naval, one combined or naval). That leaves a division in Malta, and very little in the UK. Fortunately for the CW, Germany isn't in position to take advantage of the lack of troops in the UK.

I'm going to play this impulse in an hour or so, and I'll try to get this done. I'll let you know how it turns out.
-----
Edit: I just reviewed my notes, and the CW laid down an AMPH in addition to the 3 TRS last turn.




michaelbaldur -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 8:15:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Otherwise, I agree with BallyJ:

- get the Royal Navy out of the Med asap
- if you can keep a couple of elite (white-print) units in Malta while also reinforcing Gibraltar I recommend it; otherwise stuff Gib to the gills (feel free to risk the TRS to bring units from Malta to Gib - you are building extras, right?) and put an HQ and artillery in the adjacent hex in Spanish Morocco
- fight to keep sea supply to Gib open

If US has passed war appropriations entry into the war is looking pretty good.

Once the US is in, it will be a whole lot easier to fight back into the Med if the Allies control Gib than if they don't.

I laid down 3 TRS at the end of last turn for the CW, but what I lack right now is land units. Most of my selections have ended up being Indian units, which puts them on the wrong side of Africa to be very useful. It got bad enough that the previous turn I built a dinky CAV just to be sure I would have reinforcements coming into the UK. The CW also has 4 units trapped (isolated) in the Middle-East with no way to get them out.

I can get 2 units from Malta to Gibraltar, plus the HQ to Morocco, I think. But it's going to take 2 impulses to get it done (one naval, one combined or naval). That leaves a division in Malta, and very little in the UK. Fortunately for the CW, Germany isn't in position to take advantage of the lack of troops in the UK.

I'm going to play this impulse in an hour or so, and I'll try to get this done. I'll let you know how it turns out.
-----
Edit: I just reviewed my notes, and the CW laid down an AMPH in addition to the 3 TRS last turn.


that is simply why you are loosing .. if you can lay down 4 naval units. your building to many naval units.

I usually use the 50-45-5 formula. 50% land units, 45% air units and 5 % naval units ..

or in gearing. 2-3 land, 3-4 air, 1 naval ...

CW have the biggest fleet in the world at the start of the game .. and can easily hold back Germany/Italy alone ..

so you should only build convoys and replacement transports/ amph




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 8:20:58 PM)

This is what has been destroyed during the first year of the war. You can see that while Japan lost some troops, Germany has come through almost unscathed -- it used only insanely good odds for its attacks.

[image]local://upfiles/38062/DFA64D7508D7453A9DF80EDF038D6AB7.jpg[/image]




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 8:40:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Otherwise, I agree with BallyJ:

- get the Royal Navy out of the Med asap
- if you can keep a couple of elite (white-print) units in Malta while also reinforcing Gibraltar I recommend it; otherwise stuff Gib to the gills (feel free to risk the TRS to bring units from Malta to Gib - you are building extras, right?) and put an HQ and artillery in the adjacent hex in Spanish Morocco
- fight to keep sea supply to Gib open

If US has passed war appropriations entry into the war is looking pretty good.

Once the US is in, it will be a whole lot easier to fight back into the Med if the Allies control Gib than if they don't.

I laid down 3 TRS at the end of last turn for the CW, but what I lack right now is land units. Most of my selections have ended up being Indian units, which puts them on the wrong side of Africa to be very useful. It got bad enough that the previous turn I built a dinky CAV just to be sure I would have reinforcements coming into the UK. The CW also has 4 units trapped (isolated) in the Middle-East with no way to get them out.

I can get 2 units from Malta to Gibraltar, plus the HQ to Morocco, I think. But it's going to take 2 impulses to get it done (one naval, one combined or naval). That leaves a division in Malta, and very little in the UK. Fortunately for the CW, Germany isn't in position to take advantage of the lack of troops in the UK.

I'm going to play this impulse in an hour or so, and I'll try to get this done. I'll let you know how it turns out.
-----
Edit: I just reviewed my notes, and the CW laid down an AMPH in addition to the 3 TRS last turn.


that is simply why you are loosing .. if you can lay down 4 naval units. your building to many naval units.

I usually use the 50-45-5 formula. 50% land units, 45% air units and 5 % naval units ..

or in gearing. 2-3 land, 3-4 air, 1 naval ...

CW have the biggest fleet in the world at the start of the game .. and can easily hold back Germany/Italy alone ..

so you should only build convoys and replacement transports/ amph

Here's what I built during the first year for the CW:

S/O '39
CW (12): 2 x CV(1st), 1 x CVL(1st), 2 x CVP-0, 1 x CVP-1, 2 x CV(2nd), 1 x Pilot

N/D '39
CW (12): 1 x MIL, 2 x BB(1st), 1 x CP, 1 x CVP-0, 1 x CVP-1, 1 x FTR-2, 1 x Pilot

J/F '40
CW (18): 1 x MIL, 1 x HQ-I, 2 x BB(1st), 2 x CA(Repair), 2 x CVP-1, 1 x NAV-3, 2 x Pilot

M/A '40
CW (18): 1 x GARR, 1 x MOT, 2 x ASW Escort(1st), 1 x FTR-3, 1 x CV(2nd), 2 x BB(2nd), 2 x Pilot

M/J '40
CW (18): 1 x CAV, 1 x PARA, 1 x TERR, 2 x CVP-1, 1 x CVL (Repair), 3 x CL (2nd), 2 x Pilot

J/A '40
CW (19): 2 x INF, 1 x AMPH(1st), 3 x TRS(1st), 2 x CVP-1, 1 x Pilot

Total Builds:
(Land/Naval/Air/Pilot)
-/5/3/1
1/3/3/1
2/4/3/2
2/5/1/2
3/4/2/2
2/4/2/1
-----
10 Land, 30 Naval, 14 Air, 9 Pilots

My big mistake was not building a Land unit on the first turn, I guess. With limited Build Points, though, I liked the idea of getting my navy started for later domination. Naval units are very cheap compared to land units, so I thought I'd get more bang for my buck that way.

I don't really think this was a complete mistake (just a large one). I reinforced Egypt quite heavily, but managed to get a total of 6 units isolated in the Middle East. That severely limited what I could do, and with about half of my land reinforcements coming into India, there just wasn't anybody left to reinforce elsewhere.

Here's a look at the current Force Pools for the Commonwelath:

[image]local://upfiles/38062/20BD256E380A41BD8F8B67BE9240C9D3.jpg[/image]




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/18/2011 9:08:07 PM)

As it turns out, I discovered a way to get 2 units from India over to the Gibraltar/Spanish Morocco positions in the next impulse:

CW moves TRS loaded with MOT from Bombay to Cape Basin 0 Box (on the way to Gibraltar/Spanish Morocco)
CW moves Liner from Aden through Bombay, loading INF, and on to Mozambique Channel 1 Box (on the way to Gibraltar/Spanish Morocco)
CW moves fleet of 13 ships from Malta to the W. Med, intercept attempt fails, and on to Cape St. Vincent 2 Box
CW moves TRS from Gibraltar to Bay of Biscay 2 Box, loading HQ-I Gort from Plymouth
CW moves TRS from Gibraltar to Bay of Biscay 1 Box, loading AA Division from Plymouth

Not as dire as I thought, in the end. Might be able to put up a defense after all -- and leave the 3 units in Malta just where they are, without risking any TRS.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 1:39:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Otherwise, I agree with BallyJ:

- get the Royal Navy out of the Med asap
- if you can keep a couple of elite (white-print) units in Malta while also reinforcing Gibraltar I recommend it; otherwise stuff Gib to the gills (feel free to risk the TRS to bring units from Malta to Gib - you are building extras, right?) and put an HQ and artillery in the adjacent hex in Spanish Morocco
- fight to keep sea supply to Gib open

If US has passed war appropriations entry into the war is looking pretty good.

Once the US is in, it will be a whole lot easier to fight back into the Med if the Allies control Gib than if they don't.

I laid down 3 TRS at the end of last turn for the CW, but what I lack right now is land units. Most of my selections have ended up being Indian units, which puts them on the wrong side of Africa to be very useful. It got bad enough that the previous turn I built a dinky CAV just to be sure I would have reinforcements coming into the UK. The CW also has 4 units trapped (isolated) in the Middle-East with no way to get them out.

I can get 2 units from Malta to Gibraltar, plus the HQ to Morocco, I think. But it's going to take 2 impulses to get it done (one naval, one combined or naval). That leaves a division in Malta, and very little in the UK. Fortunately for the CW, Germany isn't in position to take advantage of the lack of troops in the UK.

I'm going to play this impulse in an hour or so, and I'll try to get this done. I'll let you know how it turns out.
-----
Edit: I just reviewed my notes, and the CW laid down an AMPH in addition to the 3 TRS last turn.


that is simply why you are loosing .. if you can lay down 4 naval units. your building to many naval units.

I usually use the 50-45-5 formula. 50% land units, 45% air units and 5 % naval units ..

or in gearing. 2-3 land, 3-4 air, 1 naval ...

CW have the biggest fleet in the world at the start of the game .. and can easily hold back Germany/Italy alone ..

so you should only build convoys and replacement transports/ amph

Here's what I built during the first year for the CW:

S/O '39
CW (12): 2 x CV(1st), 1 x CVL(1st), 2 x CVP-0, 1 x CVP-1, 2 x CV(2nd), 1 x Pilot

N/D '39
CW (12): 1 x MIL, 2 x BB(1st), 1 x CP, 1 x CVP-0, 1 x CVP-1, 1 x FTR-2, 1 x Pilot

J/F '40
CW (18): 1 x MIL, 1 x HQ-I, 2 x BB(1st), 2 x CA(Repair), 2 x CVP-1, 1 x NAV-3, 2 x Pilot

M/A '40
CW (18): 1 x GARR, 1 x MOT, 2 x ASW Escort(1st), 1 x FTR-3, 1 x CV(2nd), 2 x BB(2nd), 2 x Pilot

M/J '40
CW (18): 1 x CAV, 1 x PARA, 1 x TERR, 2 x CVP-1, 1 x CVL (Repair), 3 x CL (2nd), 2 x Pilot

J/A '40
CW (19): 2 x INF, 1 x AMPH(1st), 3 x TRS(1st), 2 x CVP-1, 1 x Pilot

Total Builds:
(Land/Naval/Air/Pilot)
-/5/3/1
1/3/3/1
2/4/3/2
2/5/1/2
3/4/2/2
2/4/2/1
-----
10 Land, 30 Naval, 14 Air, 9 Pilots

My big mistake was not building a Land unit on the first turn, I guess. With limited Build Points, though, I liked the idea of getting my navy started for later domination. Naval units are very cheap compared to land units, so I thought I'd get more bang for my buck that way.

I don't really think this was a complete mistake (just a large one). I reinforced Egypt quite heavily, but managed to get a total of 6 units isolated in the Middle East. That severely limited what I could do, and with about half of my land reinforcements coming into India, there just wasn't anybody left to reinforce elsewhere.

Here's a look at the current Force Pools for the Commonwelath:

[image]local://upfiles/38062/20BD256E380A41BD8F8B67BE9240C9D3.jpg[/image]

As someone else said, there is no need for the Commonwealth to build very much in the way of naval units. They start with an enormous advantage at sea and can simply repair units to maintain its numerical superiority. Try comparing the naval forces at the start of the scenario. You will see that the French and Italian are roughly comparable and even after allocating some units to the Pacific, the Commonwealth has an overwhelming advantage over Germany.

It is land units that the COmmonwealth needs: to hold the Med (Malta, Suez, and Gibraltar), as the BEF supporting France, and defending the United Kingdom against the threat of a German invasion. If there are a lot of land units in the UK early in the war, the Axis is discouraged from building sea lift units - and the threat of Sea Lion goes by the board.




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 4:35:02 AM)

quote:

It is land units that the COmmonwealth needs: to hold the Med (Malta, Suez, and Gibraltar), as the BEF supporting France, and defending the United Kingdom against the threat of a German invasion. If there are a lot of land units in the UK early in the war, the Axis is discouraged from building sea lift units - and the threat of Sea Lion goes by the board.

Well, there are actually two other factors that you should all know about which helps explain why I built as I did:

1. I've actually never played a full game before, so in my testing I've always just done whatever seems wise at the moment -- and while the Scenario Booklet does prioritize INF and MIL after TRS and CV builds, there really isn't much information about how much of each to build.

2. This actually alters things a lot, though I wasn't going to mention it. At the time I started this game, we had nasty bug that crashed it if you tried to debark units from a sea area. This didn't get fixed until the 2nd turn was near its end (or even complete -- I could look it up). End result is that there was no BEF in France. It was all in the UK, so it didn't feel like I needed the ground troops at the time.

I'm not defending my build program. I just wanted to let you know why I screwed up my gearing limits. [:)]




paulderynck -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 5:13:20 AM)

I would've evacuated Malta as long as I had a reasonable chance of not losing the TRSs, especially the Div if you don't have one handy for Gibraltar. If Suez and Gibraltar are gone, the fleet there is useless and the defenders are just unhappily sitting in a PoW camp of their own making. Malta is not even an objective hex.

If Spain is going down anyway, do you have a unit you can rail to Tangier? Er Rif can be the new Spanish home country. Other Spaniards might even be able to move there or to Gibraltar (with CW units moving into Er RiF for now). Spain is lucky to be one of the few countries that can evacuate units out of its home country to an alternate home country without needing sea lift.




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 5:25:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I would've evacuated Malta as long as I had a reasonable chance of not losing the TRSs, especially the Div if you don't have one handy for Gibraltar. If Suez and Gibraltar are gone, the fleet there is useless and the defenders are just unhappily sitting in a PoW camp of their own making. Malta is not even an objective hex.

If Spain is going down anyway, do you have a unit you can rail to Tangier? Er Rif can be the new Spanish home country. Other Spaniards might even be able to move there or to Gibraltar (with CW units moving into Er RiF for now). Spain is lucky to be one of the few countries that can evacuate units out of its home country to an alternate home country without needing sea lift.

Actually, the only unit in Gibraltar right now is a division, so the one from Malta is not needed.

At the moment, I don't have the ability to rail Spanish units out. Bilbao in the north is the only thing keeping Spain from being conquered, and the Germans have managed to take Madrid over the course of 2 turns.

Having never before tried an attack on Spain, I didn't know how to set up the units, so I used one of Peter's AIO setups (the one for a strong force on the North Border, with minimal invasion threat):

[image]local://upfiles/38062/932E0BACEB2A48EA8A8B1EB34625DDC8.jpg[/image]
However, "strong" probably wasn't the right word to use for what I brought down to the Spanish border for Germany. Overwhelming is more like it. I think I have 15-20 German units in Spain right now. They broke through near Barcelona, and got to Madrid in J/A '40.




AstroBlues -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 11:30:51 AM)

If Gibraltar falls it will be a long road back for the Allies. Are you going for a 42 Barbaroosa?







Centuur -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 4:02:46 PM)

Even with the TRS on stake, I think I would try to evacuate Malta. After the capture of Gib, they will be sitting in a large PoW camp there. Without those units, you probably can't prevent the capture of Gibraltar anyway, since you are badly outnumbered in Spain.
You have to try to evacuate as many Spanish units as possible to Er Rif, before the capture of Bilbao. When Spain is conquered, get those Spanish INF back into Spain, together with the forces from Malta and the other corps you're gathering, you got at least a fighting position.
This is of course also depending on the defence of Morocco by the French, since the Italians must be stopped. I don't know exactly how strong the Italian force in Algeria is, but it probably isn't that big. And last but not least: start building land units. Especially the Militia forcepool should be emptied, so the CW can use that pretty nice white print London militia over and over again... It's my favourite unit: white print, fast to build and cheap...




composer99 -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 4:20:04 PM)

I'm not sure about evacuating Malta if you've been able to extract other troops from elsewhere (unless there are no white-print units there).

The Axis either has to work at taking it, requiring impulse calls & troops, or they risk heavy losses if they do throw-away invasions, or they leave it, in which case it can be invaluable once the Allies are back in the Med.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 5:39:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I would've evacuated Malta as long as I had a reasonable chance of not losing the TRSs, especially the Div if you don't have one handy for Gibraltar. If Suez and Gibraltar are gone, the fleet there is useless and the defenders are just unhappily sitting in a PoW camp of their own making. Malta is not even an objective hex.

If Spain is going down anyway, do you have a unit you can rail to Tangier? Er Rif can be the new Spanish home country. Other Spaniards might even be able to move there or to Gibraltar (with CW units moving into Er RiF for now). Spain is lucky to be one of the few countries that can evacuate units out of its home country to an alternate home country without needing sea lift.

Actually, the only unit in Gibraltar right now is a division, so the one from Malta is not needed.

At the moment, I don't have the ability to rail Spanish units out. Bilbao in the north is the only thing keeping Spain from being conquered, and the Germans have managed to take Madrid over the course of 2 turns.

Having never before tried an attack on Spain, I didn't know how to set up the units, so I used one of Peter's AIO setups (the one for a strong force on the North Border, with minimal invasion threat):

[image]local://upfiles/38062/932E0BACEB2A48EA8A8B1EB34625DDC8.jpg[/image]
However, "strong" probably wasn't the right word to use for what I brought down to the Spanish border for Germany. Overwhelming is more like it. I think I have 15-20 German units in Spain right now. They broke through near Barcelona, and got to Madrid in J/A '40.

What does the German border with the USSR look like? With so many units in Spain can the USSR break the pact and DOW Germany?




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 6:08:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronster

If Gibraltar falls it will be a long road back for the Allies. Are you going for a 42 Barbaroosa?

I may have to. I figured out how to get three units into Gibraltar before the Germans can get there (I think), so it looks like there will be several attacks before it falls.




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 6:16:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I'm not sure about evacuating Malta if you've been able to extract other troops from elsewhere (unless there are no white-print units there).

The Axis either has to work at taking it, requiring impulse calls & troops, or they risk heavy losses if they do throw-away invasions, or they leave it, in which case it can be invaluable once the Allies are back in the Med.

It's likely going to have to be overland attacks. Part of my original plans was to get the 4 units into USSR hexes next to Turkey by way of Persia. Those units are in place, so if I don't get Gibraltar quickly (by the end of N/D '40), I think I might stall there and regroup for a '41 Barbarossa. The USSR is getting stronger more quickly than Germany is, really, so getting the Turks involved quickly could be a very good thing.

On the Soviet side, I think I can stuff the Garrison Value for a while, but I don't see how I can do a good job defending both fronts. Also, with troops in the Persia region, a winter Barbarossa isn't quite such a bad thing for German, if it lets them take the Oil away from the Soviets. So, late '41 might be feasible.

If things are then going well for the Axis, they can renew attacks on Gibraltar. Italy isn't very strong in Algeria, so Morocco seems safe for the moment. With the Yugoslavian resources, and also with 4 RP that Germany is giving them each turn, the Italians are building faster than you might expect.




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 6:17:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I would've evacuated Malta as long as I had a reasonable chance of not losing the TRSs, especially the Div if you don't have one handy for Gibraltar. If Suez and Gibraltar are gone, the fleet there is useless and the defenders are just unhappily sitting in a PoW camp of their own making. Malta is not even an objective hex.

If Spain is going down anyway, do you have a unit you can rail to Tangier? Er Rif can be the new Spanish home country. Other Spaniards might even be able to move there or to Gibraltar (with CW units moving into Er RiF for now). Spain is lucky to be one of the few countries that can evacuate units out of its home country to an alternate home country without needing sea lift.

Actually, the only unit in Gibraltar right now is a division, so the one from Malta is not needed.

At the moment, I don't have the ability to rail Spanish units out. Bilbao in the north is the only thing keeping Spain from being conquered, and the Germans have managed to take Madrid over the course of 2 turns.

Having never before tried an attack on Spain, I didn't know how to set up the units, so I used one of Peter's AIO setups (the one for a strong force on the North Border, with minimal invasion threat):

[image]local://upfiles/38062/932E0BACEB2A48EA8A8B1EB34625DDC8.jpg[/image]
However, "strong" probably wasn't the right word to use for what I brought down to the Spanish border for Germany. Overwhelming is more like it. I think I have 15-20 German units in Spain right now. They broke through near Barcelona, and got to Madrid in J/A '40.

What does the German border with the USSR look like? With so many units in Spain can the USSR break the pact and DOW Germany?

No, they can't.

They had to rebuild Zhukov early, so that cut into their production. Germany is moving troops over bit by bit, and also has the Rumanians involved, so both nations are far from breaking it.




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 6:24:18 PM)

This is a (difficult to see) overview of Europe. I'll try to get some more useful images up later.

[image]local://upfiles/38062/31A84F0143424EDB9409C2201976729B.jpg[/image]




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 6:56:42 PM)

Okay, for starters, here's a look at the World Map showing hex control:

[image]local://upfiles/38062/45DB2B26F24C4259B26D3A755D637466.jpg[/image]




Red Prince -> RE: Closing the Med (10/19/2011 7:01:26 PM)

Here's the northern Nazi-Soviet Pact border:

[image]local://upfiles/38062/24A27ECAF587470E8D6DEA7D6556742F.jpg[/image]




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