RE: IJ production mistakes (Full Version)

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topeverest -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 10:23:56 PM)

Mike et al,

I love the language of math. It hides few secrets. That acceleration cost matches data I've done myself. It gets much more expensive realtive to available total when you accelerate a ship with more durability. It really can become a damatic opportunity cost / drain on available points when doing a critically large naval asset. That is the basis of my comment to think carefully on when to accelerate.

I think we are all talking the same language here. Just know what you are giving up when you do it, because you cant have it back.



bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 10:39:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Comments here are good; some other notes:

1. SHIPS: Accelerate the CVs. I recommend turning off alot of sub production, especially the RO-Boats, but even the other boats. They consume too many Naval points, and won't win the war for you. Between the subs and YAMATO, you should accelerate TAIHO, and at least the first 3 UNRYUS.

Besides, you start the game with a fairly large Sub fleet.

2. VEHICLES: You need to double/triple Vehicle production; there is not near enough at start. Do this now.

3. ARMAMENTS: Don't expand. Monitor the stockpile, because you usually accumulate more than you need. Get to 100K and shut most of it off; that will help HI

You are running a big HI surplus, so you can afford to expand Engines (Ha-35 and Ha-32 are important), airframes, Vehicles, and Naval Shipyards. THAT'S what you should be doing with your HI surplus.



Thanks All for your comments.

1. In the beginning of my campaign w/ DirtyHarry I had set my Sho carriers to an excellerated pace. Too do this I had to stop both yam's and some other surface units. Then over a 4 month period I sank Lex, Sara, Hornet and damaged the BigE. So I changed my production strategy to bring in all the chrome and went back to regular builds on the CVs as I have an on board tactical advantage.

2. I did early bump the vehicles from 100 to 180, which is current production. So u think I need more? I guess the pool will be big when my resouces get cut off.

3. I shut off armaments at 30k. so u say I need 100k. Interesting. I suspect the reason to get to 100k is so the pool is made so armaments cannot be taken away by later allied bombing, correct?

4. Hi surplus. If I expand any production it will use supply at a rate of 100 points per each factory expansion point.
use of 10 manpower and 10 Hi also.

5.So if i wanted to increase vehicles by 100 production points then it would cost:
1000man
1000HI
10000supply.
These cost are the same for any factory increase.

6. These same cost would also apply if say I wanted to increase my A6M2 by 100 planes per month or if i wanted to increase an engine factory by 100 per month, correct?

7. I understand that a factory can only be upgraded up to double the current capacity / a max of 100 points per upgrade. Rules state it takes 30 days to complete. I was watching tracker and saw as the Oscar upgrade occured my Oscar production started to increase(after I fixed the d--- minimum supply requirement of 10000 supply per base, which took me 2 game months to figure out). Little things like that 10000minimum per base are examples of newbie inexperience.




Sun Tempest -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/12/2010 11:57:32 PM)

I would have a question? Let's take a single engined plane, (e.g. Nate) what is the total cost in HI? I suspect that it amounts to 36HI (18HI engine + 18HI airfarme), but I'm not 100% sure.



John 3rd -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 12:05:43 AM)

Thanks for the answers.

What are your naval points like now? Have you expanded your naval yards?

I'm at Feb 1, 1942 and have only accelerated a few ships. Want to get Yamato, Junyo, and Nisshin out of the que in 30 days or so and then start to make some serious decisions on building.

In your game have you had the big A-t-A differential that FatR and Yubari have written on?

Cannot believe you are trying for Hawaii! BANZAI!



anarchyintheuk -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 12:42:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sun Tempest

I would have a question? Let's take a single engined plane, (e.g. Nate) what is the total cost in HI? I suspect that it amounts to 36HI (18HI engine + 18HI airfarme), but I'm not 100% sure.


You're correct.



n01487477 -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 2:39:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

Thanks All for your comments.

1. In the beginning of my campaign w/ DirtyHarry I had set my Sho carriers to an excellerated pace. Too do this I had to stop both yam's and some other surface units. Then over a 4 month period I sank Lex, Sara, Hornet and damaged the BigE. So I changed my production strategy to bring in all the chrome and went back to regular builds on the CVs as I have an on board tactical advantage.

2. I did early bump the vehicles from 100 to 180, which is current production. So u think I need more? I guess the pool will be big when my resouces get cut off.

Well it does also depend on combat replacements for your Veh, but as a rule of thumb 180~240 is what I aim for. 180 being at the lower end of the spectrum.
quote:


3. I shut off armaments at 30k. so u say I need 100k. Interesting. I suspect the reason to get to 100k is so the pool is made so armaments cannot be taken away by later allied bombing, correct?

That's correct, but it also gives a huge kick to HI. I want to keep that fairly constant though by adjusting Arm to maintain that level 43/44.
quote:


4. Hi surplus. If I expand any production it will use supply at a rate of 100 points per each factory expansion point.
use of 10 manpower and 10 Hi also.

5.So if i wanted to increase vehicles by 100 production points then it would cost:
1000man
1000HI
10000supply.
These cost are the same for any factory increase.

This is correct, and as you know 1000 supply per point repaired if over 10000 supply at base. The real cost are supplies, that's what you most likely have to budget for.
quote:


6. These same cost would also apply if say I wanted to increase my A6M2 by 100 planes per month or if i wanted to increase an engine factory by 100 per month, correct?


Yep
quote:


7. I understand that a factory can only be upgraded up to double the current capacity / a max of 100 points per upgrade. Rules state it takes 30 days to complete. I was watching tracker and saw as the Oscar upgrade occured my Oscar production started to increase(after I fixed the d--- minimum supply requirement of 10000 supply per base, which took me 2 game months to figure out). Little things like that 10000minimum per base are examples of newbie inexperience.

Not quite true. As long as you have available HI/Supply/Man you can continue to upgrade using the factory screen to 100 points multiple times. So expand 100 points click expand now and do again ... 30 days to complete, only if your expansion is 30, 100 expansion = 100 days.
You said in your OP...
quote:

3. Lack of supply at every base caused all plane (oscars) production to stop except at major bases.

This is not true, to expand you need supplies, to build planes you only need engines and HI.

Other points; I do what Mike does with acceleration of shipping. The sweet spot of "queued" in Tracker is what he's talking about. The button at the bottom "HI Cost" will tell you the HI costs of differing options (but I think there is a bug with the last "Accel Q & normal B")

You really need to sort out your engines ... http://sites.google.com/site/n01487477/Home?pli=1 I did some tutorials on using the engine interface (Tracker).

Good luck



CapAndGown -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 3:39:18 AM)

You know, there are other things besides efficiency when considering ship acceleration. I would like to testify from personal experience that having 15 CVs available in 1943 (depending on losses, of course) can benefit the Japanese player tremendously.



topeverest -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 3:42:09 AM)

Cap,

Agree there are good reasons to do...and not do ship acceleration.



Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 3:44:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Mike et al,

I love the language of math. It hides few secrets. That acceleration cost matches data I've done myself. It gets much more expensive realtive to available total when you accelerate a ship with more durability. It really can become a damatic opportunity cost / drain on available points when doing a critically large naval asset. That is the basis of my comment to think carefully on when to accelerate.

I think we are all talking the same language here. Just know what you are giving up when you do it, because you cant have it back.


Well said, Andy. That last sentence is exactly the point of all this. It's why I'm cautious as the Japanese.



n01487477 -> ~ (10/13/2010 3:45:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

You know, there are other things besides efficiency when considering ship acceleration. I would like to testify from personal experience that having 15 CVs available in 1943 (depending on losses, of course) can benefit the Japanese player tremendously.



Yeah ... I should have given that caveat . I had my production hat on, not my tactical cap and gown [;)]



Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 3:46:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sun Tempest

I would have a question? Let's take a single engined plane, (e.g. Nate) what is the total cost in HI? I suspect that it amounts to 36HI (18HI engine + 18HI airfarme), but I'm not 100% sure.


That is correct. A 2 engine plane costs 72 HI, 36 HI for 2 engines and 36 HI for the airframe.



Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 3:49:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

You know, there are other things besides efficiency when considering ship acceleration. I would like to testify from personal experience that having 15 CVs available in 1943 (depending on losses, of course) can benefit the Japanese player tremendously.



Can't argue with that. [:D]

Question though - what did you do to be able to get that? In other words, what did you halt?



Mynok -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 4:05:47 AM)


Subs are the low-hanging fruit for halting. They can always be built later. Of course, halting Shinano will put 1.5 CVs on accelerated schedules.




CapAndGown -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 4:38:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Subs are the low-hanging fruit for halting. They can always be built later. Of course, halting Shinano will put 1.5 CVs on accelerated schedules.




Subs and Shinano it is. Plus some shipyard expansion. And very careful management of production. You need to check every day to see that some ship you want to halt has not started to build and suck down your shipyard points.



John 3rd -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 5:21:22 AM)

No Shinano to halt in this Mod. Got the CBs that can be built though. Here is a list on two screenshots I posted recently in my AAR. I think the date is roughly January 20, 1942:



[image]local://upfiles/18041/BB167BE05CCE4E2C9A298EDB791C8A05.jpg[/image]



John 3rd -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 5:22:16 AM)

Here are the CBs, CAs, etc...



[image]local://upfiles/18041/1B1E52DB3C324D898F2E3BEAC3F6FFCB.jpg[/image]



John 3rd -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 5:24:01 AM)

Maybe those shots of what is building/can be built will help to understand choices BigRed has to make.



bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 5:32:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sun Tempest

I would have a question? Let's take a single engined plane, (e.g. Nate) what is the total cost in HI? I suspect that it amounts to 36HI (18HI engine + 18HI airfarme), but I'm not 100% sure.



Looking at post# 7 you are correct.



bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 5:39:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Thanks for the answers.

What are your naval points like now? Have you expanded your naval yards?



Naval yards/points. yes all small yards I doubled early. I currently have only 3 ships accelerated, 2xCVEs and one tanker. I probably screwed up the merchant production earlier w/ massive tanker/CVE acceleration. So you can see my merchant naval points are getting low. At the time of the decision someone on the forum had suggested accelerating Tankers/CVEs so it sounded good to me.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/5BB48A10F763478BBB225B3CB2C0C335.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 5:53:02 AM)

This is a print of my current resource levels. april 7th 42. I figure I will be able to really lift some oil and resources after I finish off Java. So the r/o should stabilize in about 2 months.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/9FBAD1E6CAF54D31A2FF4FCB9F41C309.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 5:56:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
In your game have you had the big A-t-A differential that FatR and Yubari have written on?



I have noticed something unusual, Look at this. It started as I invaded Hilo. up till turn 101 I had about 100 zero losses. In 20 turns i have lost almost another 100 zeros. By these numbers in a heavy engagement over Hilo I have lost about 100 planes but the allies have lost about an extra 600. Note some of the loses are from the dutch air on java making a last air attack.

On this screen over 30 turns the loss rate appears to be 627/330=1.9to1. Hilo allied sweep is made by p40.


[image]local://upfiles/27655/3AEFF525F55A4C97939C2F6695A5B21C.jpg[/image]



John 3rd -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 6:06:27 AM)

Lookie at what Good Sir?

My A-t-A has been good but not extreme. Should know when some decent fighters are encountered. Haven't fought any sizeable P-40 force (AVG is in Burma I THINK!), no Hurricanes/Spitfires, and no Wildcats yet. Should know pretty quick after that though.



bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 6:42:51 AM)

I would like to thank everyone for kind advice and ideas. Be advised I find a thread I have produced to be easier to remember when I need to study my issues. Kind of an online library for jap production. I have a hard time remembering other thread locations..



jomni -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 6:46:39 AM)

I would love to see a Japanese production compendium.



bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 7:00:36 AM)

according to Damien the first thing I need to do is figure my input. In my game at first I grabbed everything I could find and sent it to japan. Then I realized some of those islands are not connected. LOL. So I rerouted most Cargo TFs to Honshu.

Now I am worried about china. I noticed low supply levels. Tactically I have not covered all garrisons w/ the intent of taking a goodly part of china. I wondered if those partisans are destroying my supply production? So I will slow down my resource pull from Port Aurther and Shanghia.

Now to my input numbers. I red lined what I am not able to deliver. I wondered how to pick up those russian resources. I figure they come thru sakhalin island which I am loading out.

My positive Res count is about 39000 per day to be carried to japan. did not include ocean island. Say 40000 per day.

So next I looked to see how much Res I have in the convoy system.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/4E74FD7839E0491D81E589AEDC522965.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 7:46:37 AM)

Shipping of resources in convoy is:230335 I figure all of this will arrive w/in 7 days so 230335/7=32905 per day input resources average onto Honshu.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/A7AAE42A61B245A6AAB709FD371297EA.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 8:01:08 AM)

AS I was looking thru my tracker I saw this and hoped it does not mean current supply cost of repairs.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/6942E1FCD3BD43E29D5039C353ED3549.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 8:11:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

according to Damien the first thing I need to do is figure my input. In my game at first I grabbed everything I could find and sent it to japan. Then I realized some of those islands are not connected. LOL. So I rerouted most Cargo TFs to Honshu.

Now I am worried about china. I noticed low supply levels. Tactically I have not covered all garrisons w/ the intent of taking a goodly part of china. I wondered if those partisans are destroying my supply production? So I will slow down my resource pull from Port Aurther and Shaghia.

Now to my input numbers. I red lined what I am not able to deliver. I wondered how to pick up those russian resources. I figure they come thru sakhalin island which I am loading out.

My positive Res count is about 39000 per day to be carried to japan. did not include ocean island. Say 40000 per day.

So next I looked to see how much Res I have in the convoy system.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/4E74FD7839E0491D81E589AEDC522965.jpg[/image]



I looked at the average decline/ gain of my resources from post #50 =-10021 per turn.
Not that far off the mark. I need to deliver an extra 15000 res per day to go positive. So where do the allies have what I will need.

I figure Sumatra, all of Java, and improve the draw from Borneo and a few other undisclosed locations should do the trick.



Mike Solli -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 1:07:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

Shipping of resources in convoy is:230335 I figure all of this will arrive w/in 7 days so 230335/7=32905 per day input resources average onto Honshu.



Keep in mind that you need roughly 110k resources to flow into Honshu each day. If everything is producing, you need 6.4 mil resources a month and Honshu produces almost 3.1 mil resources. Granted, most if comes from Japan and China/Manchuria/Korea, but you still have to ship almost all of it.



n01487477 -> RE: IJ production mistakes (10/13/2010 1:15:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

Shipping of resources in convoy is:230335 I figure all of this will arrive w/in 7 days so 230335/7=32905 per day input resources average onto Honshu.



Keep in mind that you need roughly 110k resources to flow into Honshu each day. If everything is producing, you need 6.4 mil resources a month and Honshu produces almost 3.1 mil resources. Granted, most if comes from Japan and China/Manchuria/Korea, but you still have to ship almost all of it.

Actually Reluctant Admiral is a bit different ... just downloaded and loaded 1st turn data. I'm intrigued so will have a look at where the shortfall is.

[image]local://upfiles/19798/18D4E93E3B0A402B85506F4B26DF3BE7.jpg[/image]



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