Historical Issues : READ ME FIRST (Full Version)

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Vic -> Historical Issues : READ ME FIRST (8/28/2010 1:00:51 PM)

Dear players,

I encourage making observations, suggestions and pointing out of mistakes very much. Either on the OOBS, equipment, descriptions, location names or map hexes. Or anything.

I am compiling a list of everything that comes in and will make changes to the scenarios with every patch.

If you point out something is historically wrong please also point out what should be the case in your opinion. If possible even add a link to a source, but that is not a requirement to post here.

Its very much appreciated if you share your knowledge and your input will help make this a more historical, consistent and detailed game with each iteration.

Best regards,

phair2 -> RE: Historical Issues : READ ME FIRST (1/8/2020 9:05:25 PM)

Unfortunately this supposedly realistic game doesn't seem to be win-able as the German player in Campaign Mode playing against Poland (Case White) UNLESS you turn off Fog Of War. With Fog Of War turned on, the "German" almost always overestimate the strength of Polish units to the extent that they think they see 7,500 man Infantry Divisions. I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but I know the Polish did not have such grossly over-strength units. Or is that just the Fog Of War over-estimating strength? Either way, whether the units is over-sized or the German recon is guessing wrong, it wastes game turns trying to figure out how/when to attack it. Because you just can't leave a unit of that large size in your rear. What I'm describing is true even on the so-called "easy" historical setting. The German player needs more time. I have played several times and lost by 5 points. There simply isn't enough time to accomplish what the Germans actually accomplished therefore making it Allied biased. THe last Polish resistance ended around October 12th. So the player should at least have until the first week of October. (Even if it took until December, it would not have effected the invasion of France.) So 3 things:

1) Not enough time. (Where's the game editor so we can add a few turns to the scenario without redesigning the whole thing from scratch?)
The game engine and A.I. also play the Polish much tougher and smarter than the Polish actually behaved in real life. Thus making it take longer.

2.) The German armoured and motorized units were much more effective in real life than in the game. They are also too slow and need more movement points per turn. Each turn is 2 days not 1 day. But the amount that they can move in a turn looks more like 1 days movement. Surrounded units should not take 2-3 turns to destroy. In a 2 day per turn game, they should be destroyed no later than the 2nd turn of encirclement. I could see it taking several turns if each turn were a day. Because of the movement point lack, surrounding units takes longer than it should. The German units seem to be too weak (or POles too strong) and are forced to over-stack thus suffering more losses and leaving some ground open and unprotected. Surrounding and air support need to be more effective as they were in real life. Is supply considered when surrounded? Lower morale? Lack of supply and weakened defense should go into effect immediately in a 2 day/per turn game. Also, when a unit is surrounded, the attacker should not have to keep a unit in each surrounding hex. Merely driving over ground changing the map color to "occupied territory" should be sufficient to accomplish encircled status and reduce morale and supply.

3.) Some of the POlish units appear to be way too strong (maybe due to fog of war over-estimating?). Even if a Polish unit had 7500 men compared to a German unit that has 4,000 men, the smaller German unit was more powerful and efficient in it's use than the Polish unit. No Polish unit should be more powerful than the same type German unit (combat-wise not manpower wise). Regardless of the head-count. Polish Infantry Divisions 1-4 were Guards units, elite, and were equal to the Germans in strength and effectiveness. In other wargames of similar design and scale, the unit would be a 7-6. 7 attack/defense, 6 movement. The other Polish Divisions would be 6-6, 5-6-6, and 5-6. The Polish Reserve Divisions would be 4-5-6, 4-6, 3-4-6, and even 3-6. Some slower units would even be 4-5, and 4-4. Most Polish Infantry were weaker in attack then defense. So counter attacks were infrequent except for Warta and Bzura counter attacks. (A fun thing for the Polish player to do is take their many heavy Cavalry Brigades and "invade" East Prussia with their higher movement halting German attacks from the North and only fighting against weaker German garrison troops and security forces.)

I tell you this as a published wargame designer/researcher myself. I feel that a better representation of this topic is John Tiller's "The First Blitzkrieg: Total War In Europe" Campaign series from HPS Simulations. It also contains an excellent editor which can be used to build a game/scenario from scratch or to edit existing scenarios to tweak them.

JervisBay -> RE: Historical Issues : READ ME FIRST (1/11/2020 1:40:27 PM)

I can't comment on the accuracy of the unit sizes or movement points (although I have seen a comment that they are too 'standardised' in the Barbarossa games). The game is winnable though - albeit that the bar is intentionally set high - as I recall you have to focus single-mindedly on taking Warsaw and use air recon to overcome the fog-of-war. That you are going to 'win' as Axis is in no doubt, the question is - how well? That the AI plays intelligently is a real plus point and features like the option cards in the DC series to my mind indicate a really strong design - I just wish there was more.

YorStein -> RE: Historical Issues : READ ME FIRST (1/11/2020 2:31:07 PM)

Well you cut adjust the scenario with the Community Project scenario Editor to your Hearts content , though i think the unit size is just bad recon . Overall i agree with you that there are things to be improved upon . As for JervisBay : i have good news for you , behold the Community Project with its abondance of scenarios and replayablity !

phair2 -> RE: Historical Issues : READ ME FIRST (1/20/2020 7:46:48 PM)

What is the Community Project Scenario Editor? Never heard of that. When you buy a game and pay for it, an editor should be included. I'm telling you these things as a published wargame designer myself who's designs are used by the US Army war college at Carlisle , Pennsylvania. (Officers and Artillery school). I used to design for Advanced Squad Leader (ASL) and Advanced TOBRUK!.

I noticed something else too, the game manual says that if the computer/A.I. plays the German, it gets until October 1st to win, which is 2-3 extra turns. I can probably win with 2 extra turns, barely and definitely with 4. The last time, I got within 2 hexes of Warsaw, so I'd need a minimum of 2 more turns but most likely 3-4 turns because Warsaw is stacked with 500 strength points. In real life, most of the Polish forces surrendered by September, 27th. Some held out until mid October in the southern mountains and retreated to Romania and I believe the fort on the Heil peninsula held out until November 3rd. So where's the "surrender option" or "trigger" in the game? I'm trying to play the campaign but if I can't win in Poland, I can't play France and Sea Lion. So what good is the game? How is it worth the money? Or the time and effort? What the Germans accomplished should at least be possible. I'm trying it 1 more time. This time I plan to take all of my motorized and armoured units and slice through any open gaps that present themselves in an effort to get to Warsaw and Lwow. It would surprise me if the A.I just lets me do it and doesn't respond by cutting my supply lines. In real life the Poles, most of whom were on foot, march back and forth tiring themselves out trying to set up defenses in different places only to move again. They were for the most part, too slow and too immobile to cut off German supply lines especially when their own supply lines were cut. Warsaw, also, by itself, cannot supply the entire Polish armed forces especially in the far flung southern mountain areas. The game shows an anti-German bias which is neither accurate or historical.

YorStein -> RE: Historical Issues : READ ME FIRST (1/23/2020 3:44:54 PM)

you can download the community project Scenario if you own any of the DC series games on the virtual designs website (https://www.vrdesigns.net/?page_id=1331) It lets you make Scenarios for other Wars and lets you design new Units and events , Iran/Iraq War and the Korean war have been already designed by a user to a degree that it cut be a DLC. Go Check it out !

zeeschuimer -> RE: Historical Issues : READ ME FIRST (6/8/2021 8:44:31 PM)

Here a link for the dutch order of battle.

zeeschuimer -> RE: Historical Issues : READ ME FIRST (6/9/2021 8:59:29 PM)

Vic, first I want to say is that I appreciate your efforts to make this game.
For the Netherlands Scenario actually one of the most interesting parts is missing, the North.
As the germans were atually stopped at Kornwerderzand (Fortress on the Afsluitdijk) preventing them to reach Amsterdam, where a complete line was and the fortified Navy base in Den Helder.
The navy units near Rotterdam, were no regular army units, but considered the elite of the forces at that time, the marine corps or Korps Mariniers. They stopped the german assault near the Maas bridges, actually delaying the germans so much that Germany decided to bombard Rotterdam.

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