French CL Duguay Trouin (Full Version)

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Bradley7735 -> French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 3:09:08 AM)

Hi guys,

Wow, was this ship really thin skinned? She's similar in most repects to almost every other CL, except 20mm of belt armor and deck armor and 25mm of tower and turret armor. Is that correct? Is she really more of a destroyer flotilla leader than a CL? The other French CL in the game (La Galissonniere) has a more familiar CL protection scheme. Their tonnage, speed and durability are fairly comparable, although the LG is slightly larger (heavier?) than the DT.

I had a turn where the DT fought a Fubuki class DD and got pummeled. [:D] I didn't realize she had such little armor.

Anyone a French fleet expert?

Thanks!!




Capt Henry_MatrixForum -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 3:34:17 AM)

I'm certainly not a French Navy expert, but Conway's lists her armor as being between 3/4 and 1 inch. It also notes she had slight protection.




RCNVR -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 3:51:20 AM)

Also not a French Navy expert, all references I can find mention her light armour. Jane's says "Armour: Practically nil except for thin gunshields, splinter-proof Conning Tower and double armoured deck."




Q-Ball -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 4:18:50 AM)

For the Washington Treaty, it seems like everybody had to make some sort of design compromise. The Japanese made ships that were top-heavy (and they also cheated), the Italians sacrificed protection for speed and firepower, and the French went even slightly further in that direction. That's accurate.

Check out the Duquense-class CAs it's even worse; 30 mm of armor on a "Heavy" cruiser. They were fast though, like all French ships.




aciddrinker -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 8:27:17 AM)

French cruisers of World War II were characterized by very high speed at the cost of armor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duquesne_class_cruiser at bottom you have links for all French classes of WW II




Twotribes -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 8:38:36 AM)

Our ships today have no armor either. Hell some of them were made of Aluminum.




Gilbert -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 10:31:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Hi guys,

Wow, was this ship really thin skinned? She's similar in most repects to almost every other CL, except 20mm of belt armor and deck armor and 25mm of tower and turret armor. Is that correct? Is she really more of a destroyer flotilla leader than a CL? The other French CL in the game (La Galissonniere) has a more familiar CL protection scheme. Their tonnage, speed and durability are fairly comparable, although the LG is slightly larger (heavier?) than the DT.

I had a turn where the DT fought a Fubuki class DD and got pummeled. [:D] I didn't realize she had such little armor.

Anyone a French fleet expert?

Thanks!!


Hello Bradley,

The "8000t Cruisers" were indeed lightly protected. Commissioned in 1926-1927, they were like their Italian contemporary counterparts, putting emphasis on Speed and sacrifizing therefore adequate protection. please find below official data from the book "Les Croiseurs de 8000t. by J.Guiglini & A.Moreau":
- Main deck=10mm
- First deck=20mm
- Main turrets=30mm
- Conning Tower=30mm
- Hull=From 14mm to 20mm
These cruisers were vulnerable to DDs main armament with such a light protection scheme.
For those interested, here is a website dedicated to "Lamotte-Picquet". Browsing the left column will give you some nice prewar pictures of various places in Asia.
http://www.croiseur-lamotte-picquet.fr/index.php?page=retour

Regards
Gilbert




herwin -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 11:25:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Hi guys,

Wow, was this ship really thin skinned? She's similar in most repects to almost every other CL, except 20mm of belt armor and deck armor and 25mm of tower and turret armor. Is that correct? Is she really more of a destroyer flotilla leader than a CL? The other French CL in the game (La Galissonniere) has a more familiar CL protection scheme. Their tonnage, speed and durability are fairly comparable, although the LG is slightly larger (heavier?) than the DT.

I had a turn where the DT fought a Fubuki class DD and got pummeled. [:D] I didn't realize she had such little armor.

Anyone a French fleet expert?

Thanks!!


It was one of those interwar high-speed tin-clads. Yes, it had minimal protection.




herwin -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 11:26:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Our ships today have no armor either. Hell some of them were made of Aluminum.


And burn...




John Lansford -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 12:35:15 PM)

Modern ships rely on active defenses rather than passive ones for survival, since it's easier to intercept a SSM than it is to withstand its impact.  That's the opposite of WWII weapons, where it was impossible to intercept an 8" shell but it was possible to protect from its damage.  The French prewar CL's believed in "speed as armor", a concept the RN tried with battlecruisers in WWI that the Italians also tried with their prewar CL's as well. 




Twotribes -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 1:22:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Modern ships rely on active defenses rather than passive ones for survival, since it's easier to intercept a SSM than it is to withstand its impact.  That's the opposite of WWII weapons, where it was impossible to intercept an 8" shell but it was possible to protect from its damage.  The French prewar CL's believed in "speed as armor", a concept the RN tried with battlecruisers in WWI that the Italians also tried with their prewar CL's as well. 


Ya that approach worked so well when That Destroyer got hit with an Exocet in the Gulf.

I have a problem with no armor on our ships. You see it creates several conveniences for the attacker. One a Heavy barreled Machinegun can cut right through the ship meaning even lightly arme4d patrol craft in tight waters can adversely effect even Cruisers. And the warhead on attacking missiles does not need to be very big at all to cause catastrophic damage. Making for small very fast long range missiles.

And as we discovered making ships with aluminum is a BAD idea, it burns on its own in the super heated blasts of the missile hitting the ship. It creates toxic fumes as well. Might as well have a wooden ship.




xj900uk -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 1:51:44 PM)

Thought the RN had perfected the art of putting insufficient armour plate and protection on its warships.  From Jutland right through the the Falklands,  RN ships had an awful tendancy to succomb often quite spectacularly and abruptly...
Remember that the Sheffield (sunk 82 in the Falklands) was hit by an Excocet whose warhead didn't even go off - the shock of the impact coupled with burning fuel from the rocket motor spraying all over the place was enough to set far to the highly combustible fittings and aluminium superstructure,  the blaze very quickly got out of hand and with the shock of the impact having knocked out most extremely delicate electrical systems and backups,  there was no recourse but to 'abandon ship'.
Reminds me of the old boxing adage :  'Sometimes you can't avoid being hit.  The trick is to survive it'.




Bradley7735 -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 2:04:47 PM)

Ok, so she's armored correctly in the game, but her speed is 33 knots (I think). That isn't really fast. I thought some of the Italian CL's went as fast as 35-38 knots (although I know they were rated up to 40, but couldn't go that fast irl.)

But, I guess she's significantly faster than the RN C & D class CL's. And old. So, she's probably right on the speed as well.

Thanks guys for the help. I assumed she was listed correctly. It was just a big shock when she's getting her butt kicked by a DD (and not through torpedoes). [:D]




Gilbert -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 3:30:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Ok, so she's armored correctly in the game, but her speed is 33 knots (I think). That isn't really fast. I thought some of the Italian CL's went as fast as 35-38 knots (although I know they were rated up to 40, but couldn't go that fast irl.)

But, I guess she's significantly faster than the RN C & D class CL's. And old. So, she's probably right on the speed as well.

Thanks guys for the help. I assumed she was listed correctly. It was just a big shock when she's getting her butt kicked by a DD (and not through torpedoes). [:D]


Her Game speed matches RL. Here are (from the same book) the results of official speed trials conducted for 6 hours:
-Primauguet=33,04kn.
-Lamotte-Picquet=33,..kn.
- Duguay-Trouin=33,443kn.

Therefore, 33 knots is absolutely correct [:D]
Regards
Gilbert




aciddrinker -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 3:32:40 PM)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duguay-Trouin_class_cruiser

speed is good




Andy Mac -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/28/2010 6:50:50 PM)

I added a few more french ships in my Ironman Allied mod they are all pretty thin skinned....




Kull -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/29/2010 2:47:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I added a few more french ships in my Ironman Allied mod they are all pretty thin skinned....


Don't put in too many, else you'll have to change the name to "Tinman". [;)]




Dili -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/29/2010 3:23:53 AM)

quote:

Italians also tried with their prewar CL's as well.


The first ones Barbiano,Cadorna Class from 1930 yes. But the drive to armor started with Montecucolli pair in 1935, it had 60+25mm belt, the Aosta pair of same year had 100mm total and Abruzzi class commisioned in 1937 had a composite armor of a deccaping 30mm plate plus 100mm at certain distance making it in tests comparable to the 150mm of Zara Class.




Fishbed -> RE: French CL Duguay Trouin (1/29/2010 3:27:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Modern ships rely on active defenses rather than passive ones for survival, since it's easier to intercept a SSM than it is to withstand its impact.  That's the opposite of WWII weapons, where it was impossible to intercept an 8" shell but it was possible to protect from its damage.  The French prewar CL's believed in "speed as armor", a concept the RN tried with battlecruisers in WWI that the Italians also tried with their prewar CL's as well. 


Ya that approach worked so well when That Destroyer got hit with an Exocet in the Gulf.



Well you could argue we're talking about a Perry class frigate here (USS Stark), nothing like an air-defense ship fitted with Aegis stuff... And they even survived the blast (unlike HMS Sheffield)




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