Ravamped Wargames (Full Version)

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sapper_astro -> Ravamped Wargames (5/26/2009 5:09:52 AM)

I am undecided over the following issue, so thought I would put it out and see what others think. The issue in question is that of computer wargames that are revamped a couple of years, or sometimes less, after they are originally sold, and often have a full price tag even for people that have purchased the original.

The first games I recall doing this, though there may be others, is Hearts of Iron 2 (with Doomsday) and Gary Grigsby's World at War (with World Divided).

I bought both of these games originally, and when the new editions came out, did not have the funds to buy almost the same game again. Perhaps if there was at least a half price attached, maybe. The same thing happened with Making History and the new Gold edition. The latest one was Crown of Glory. I own the original for these as well.

Ever since these were released, I have been holding off purchasing these kinds of games due to the thought in my head that I should wait until the "finished" edition is eventually released. I am undecided over how I feel about the issue.

A) I realise that Wargaming companies want to make a buck in a very niche area, so this is one way of maximising returns for much less effort than making a complete, new game.

B) However, I feel somewhat cheated at financing the original concept, thus allowing the dev to make the new edition, yet gain no benefit from the deal apart from (often) being asked to pay the full price again for the same game platform, with some improvements (sometimes quite important or good) tacked on.

An expansion would, hopefully, cost less to buy. The disadvantage to the developer is that an expansion would only be bought by existing players and not gain new players.

The disadvantage for the developer, if enough people start to think like myself, is that people will start hanging off purchasing so they can save the full cost of a game twice. This however could mean that if enough people do not buy the original, the developer goes out of business, or does not bother improving the game.

I wonder what other people here think of this new system?

Edit: I actually remember this also happened with Clash of Steel (Future edition) back in the old days. Make that "old system that is new again"[;)]




Perturabo -> RE: Ravamped Wargames (5/26/2009 10:28:11 AM)

Well, an expansion could be sold to the old gamers and a "gold" edition that would include the expansion to the new ones.




e_barkmann -> RE: Ravamped Wargames (5/26/2009 11:39:55 AM)

development time costs money, regardless if the time is applied to a new engine or upgrading an old one.

I have no problem forking out for an engine that I like that's been upgraded with tangible benefits. Probably a better idea than starting again every few years as all the previous dev time is lost.

Actually I'm still amazed that a lot people have no concept in the effort that goes into making these kind of games. They are extraordinarily cheap these days. Show me a wargame developer's Porsche...

cheers Chris




hadberz -> RE: Ravamped Wargames (5/26/2009 12:02:21 PM)

When Gary Grigsby's World at War, A World Divided came out there was a very good discount for people who already had Gary Grigsby's World at War. To me it was like buying an expansion.




Erik Rutins -> RE: Ravamped Wargames (5/26/2009 12:34:40 PM)

This is nothing new, Sapper nor does it only happen with wargames. Both WAW and COG were the first games released with a new engine - we and the developers both agreed that it would be worth going back and doing more work on them with lessons learned and customer feedback. In both cases, the original games received very significant free patch support fixing issues and adding features, so the sequels did not take development away that should have gone to supporting the originals.

As also pointed out above, when AWD came out we offered a nice discount for owners of WAW and we also are still offering a discount for owners of COG. Note that AWD had more than a year of additional full-time development by 2by3 Games invested in it, COG: EE had more than two years of additional full-time development by Western Civ - these were much more than cosmetic updates and COG: EE had the same amount of development time put into it as Forge of Freedom, a "new release". Ultimately, the choice has to be yours, but I can say from our side that these are not "cash cows".

Regards,

- Erik




Obsolete -> RE: Ravamped Wargames (5/26/2009 3:17:26 PM)

Hmm.  Another analogy could be when developers decided to OFFICIALY release a package as freeware after a set-date.  If someone is really stingy, and decides to do things legal, he could simply wait until that time comes.






sapper_astro -> RE: Ravamped Wargames (5/26/2009 3:36:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

This is nothing new, Sapper nor does it only happen with wargames. Both WAW and COG were the first games released with a new engine - we and the developers both agreed that it would be worth going back and doing more work on them with lessons learned and customer feedback. In both cases, the original games received very significant free patch support fixing issues and adding features, so the sequels did not take development away that should have gone to supporting the originals.

As also pointed out above, when AWD came out we offered a nice discount for owners of WAW and we also are still offering a discount for owners of COG. Note that AWD had more than a year of additional full-time development by 2by3 Games invested in it, COG: EE had more than two years of additional full-time development by Western Civ - these were much more than cosmetic updates and COG: EE had the same amount of development time put into it as Forge of Freedom, a "new release". Ultimately, the choice has to be yours, but I can say from our side that these are not "cash cows".

Regards,

- Erik


Fair enough point. I did not know that their development time had been totally taken up with that one project for a year. Or the two years for COG: ED. That has firmed up my thoughts quite a bit. I never thought they were cash cows, as one overly sensitive gent pointed out earlier in the thread, they don't seem to drive about in sportscars.[;)]

I still wonder whether people are starting to hold off on purchases just in case a second edition version is around the corner.

I was banking on it for War in the Pacific actually, and now I find out it is an expansion[:@][:D] of all the bloody luck...






Kuokkanen -> RE: Ravamped Wargames (5/26/2009 7:52:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

An expansion would, hopefully, cost less to buy. The disadvantage to the developer is that an expansion would only be bought by existing players and not gain new players.

Actually there are number of games that get expansions, and when some/all of the expansions are done, they are collected to single box and sold for price of single game. That way I've got Ground Control & expansion, Dawn of War & ALL expansions, Baldur's Gate serie & expansions and more.

What comes to Matrix Games, Erik answered already.




madgamer2 -> RE: Ravamped Wargames (5/26/2009 8:19:43 PM)

In general everything here said is true but as for myself I find that bigger and more complex are not always good. I bought HOI and I loved it and still do and the unofficial expansion "AI Super bundle". Many companies like the one who sell the HOI series only support the latest release. It is great that this has not stopped forums for older games from going on the net.
I think in to many cases (Matrix excluded) that developers think bigger..more complex, more detail etc is good. I do not. When I bought HOI 2 it was a sad day as it was not the same game as the first. There are also companies that come out with a new game based on a older engine that actually bring out patch's for the older game to bring it up to speed so the players do not feel left out.

so we all end up asking ourselves the same questions as you do. For me for example after almost 5 years of struggling with WitP and in spite of a great deal of help from the forum members I most likely will not buy the AE addition if it costs as much as a new game because I have problems just trying to beat the AI and the AE edition improves some things but adds more detail which I know I will have trouble with. Due to a computer fluke my current game of WitP was wiped pout and I had to reinstall all the patch's after 1.5 and do not have the energy to start a new game for now. After (if) AE I will have to see.

thanks for your post it stated some of the questions that many of us have in our own minds.

Madgamer




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