Thinking of buying the lastest TOAW.. (Full Version)

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lstp04 -> Thinking of buying the lastest TOAW.. (5/8/2009 7:27:11 PM)

I use to play TOAW back about 5 years ago - How much different is TOAW III?

And while I know the game is more on the CO. Level and bigger. Does TOAW III do anything to enhance smaller operations (such as the original game .....on the scale of the operation of Gernade).

Thanks in advance for any comments...




damezzi -> RE: Thinking of buying the lastest TOAW.. (5/8/2009 11:00:26 PM)

Go for it! Don't think twice.

And you'll not want to be unable to use the next patch. Read about it here:

http://www.operationalwarfare.com/

As for the differences to the previous versions, there are players on this forum much more aware of those changes than me. They'll sure inform you about it.




Zaratoughda -> RE: Thinking of buying the lastest TOAW.. (5/9/2009 12:42:25 AM)

A standard for batallion level games (like the V4V and WaW series of games) was 1 KM per hex.

TOAW... only goes down to 2.5 KM per hex... making batallion level scenarios difficult. A lot of designers are doing the best they can with batallion (and lower) level scenarios, but this is difficult given the 2.5 KM per hex being the lowest scale.

Also the formula for equipment density is poorly done.... going up by the power of 2 and that is too much... and this falls apart when you get to lower scales.

So....... there would be a challange in putting in 1 KM and smaller scales and.... there is no discussion of this now.

In short.... there are batallion level scenarios and the like out there but.... TOAW3 does not facilitate such scenarios to any great degree. CO level and higher? More like regimental level and higher.... other than what I have mentioned above.

Zaratoughda




secadegas -> RE: Thinking of buying the lastest TOAW.. (5/9/2009 1:13:40 AM)

TOAW stands for The OPERATIONAL Art Of War and does well what was created for... operational scale.

You can even create platoon/squad units in 6 hours turns scenarios. But then don't claim about TOAW shortcomings.





golden delicious -> RE: Thinking of buying the lastest TOAW.. (5/9/2009 1:59:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

A standard for batallion level games (like the V4V and WaW series of games) was 1 KM per hex.

TOAW... only goes down to 2.5 KM per hex... making batallion level scenarios difficult. A lot of designers are doing the best they can with batallion (and lower) level scenarios, but this is difficult given the 2.5 KM per hex being the lowest scale.


Hm...? I don't see why battalion level scenarios should be a problem at 2.5km/hex. One can cram most of a division into a single hex at battalion scale.

Companies don't work as well.




lstp04 -> RE: Thinking of buying the lastest TOAW.. (5/9/2009 1:59:46 AM)

Thanks for the comments -

Does the original Gerneda operation come with TOAW III? Is it playable if it doesn't and one uploads it?




Zaratoughda -> RE: Thinking of buying the lastest TOAW.. (5/9/2009 10:29:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

A standard for batallion level games (like the V4V and WaW series of games) was 1 KM per hex.

TOAW... only goes down to 2.5 KM per hex... making batallion level scenarios difficult. A lot of designers are doing the best they can with batallion (and lower) level scenarios, but this is difficult given the 2.5 KM per hex being the lowest scale.


Hm...? I don't see why battalion level scenarios should be a problem at 2.5km/hex. One can cram most of a division into a single hex at battalion scale.

Companies don't work as well.


Hmmmm...... in the V4V and WAW games.... battalion level.... they allowed three batallions per hex.

If you compare 1 KM per hex and 2.5 KM per hex.... and go with the current TOAW formula of increasing stacking with the square of the difference..... that would mean an increase in the stacking allowed... by a factor of 6.25x. In other words, about 19 batallions could stack in the same hex.

If you were to go with what I would call a more reasonable value.... say increasing by the 1.5 power relative to the difference.... that would still mean an increase of 4x and thus 12 units per hex.

Now, TOAW uses equipment density and the V4V/WAW games did not... but still the relative difference at the point where you suffer equipment density penalties would be the same.

In other words.... there are a LOT of battalion level and lower scenarios out there and they do not fit well at 2.5 KM per hex.... and there is no reason that there are not 1 KM (and smaller.... .5 KM, etc) per hex scales.... other than the code having to be done and the equipment density forumla fixed.

TOAW was not designed for these scales in the beginning but there is no reason that it would not work with them and, again, there are a LOT of batallion level and less scenarios out there.

Zaratoughda

P.S. Hmmm.... yes, you could always play scenarios with the high stacking but as unit density goes up the enjoyment of a scenario goes down. 1 KM per hex is a nice scale for batallion level games.




golden delicious -> RE: Thinking of buying the lastest TOAW.. (5/12/2009 6:43:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda
Hmmmm...... in the V4V and WAW games.... battalion level.... they allowed three batallions per hex.

If you compare 1 KM per hex and 2.5 KM per hex.... and go with the current TOAW formula of increasing stacking with the square of the difference..... that would mean an increase in the stacking allowed... by a factor of 6.25x. In other words, about 19 batallions could stack in the same hex.

If you were to go with what I would call a more reasonable value.... say increasing by the 1.5 power relative to the difference.... that would still mean an increase of 4x and thus 12 units per hex.


In what situation would one want to cram more than 9 battalions into one 2.5km hex? That's 275 metres frontage per battalion. The fact that you get extreme density penalties at this level in TOAW is indicative of how unlikely this kind of situation is.

quote:

and there is no reason that there are not 1 KM per hex scales


The reason that there is no scale lower than 2.5km/hex is because you would have to build massive amounts of code for direct fire attacks between hexes. TOAW is an operational game which allows for direct fire only when two units are effectively in the same hex. If you break away from that you uncover various tactical considerations such as line of sight, the various ranges of different direct fire weapons, etc.

quote:

1 KM per hex is a nice scale for batallion level games.


Only in extreme density situations. Most campaigns were fought at far too low a density level to be playable at this scale combination.




Zaratoughda -> RE: Thinking of buying the lastest TOAW.. (5/19/2009 12:47:58 AM)

GD.....

Three Sixty.... and then the same group working for Avalon Hill.... did SEVEN games, all batallion level and 1 KM per hex.... and it's nice because all the units are around the same level (some companies), and thus no ants running around, and... the games were quite well received and maybe, all things considered, the best batallion level games ever done.

And your saying it can't be done or is a bad idea.

Sheesh! <g>

Zaratoughda

P.S. And what I am saying is that, with these games now kinda old, it would be nice if TOAW had the 1 KM per hex scale so batallion level games along these lines could be generated in TOAW.




V22 Osprey -> RE: Thinking of buying the lastest TOAW.. (5/25/2009 10:27:50 PM)

Well, I like the game.

I do admit that at first the minimum 2.5 KM hex I thought was to large for a minimum, especially since I play Panzer Campaigns(1 KM, Battalion level).

But, soon I got used to it and TOAW III grew on me.




damezzi -> RE: Thinking of buying the lastest TOAW.. (5/26/2009 12:32:30 AM)


quote:

But, soon I got used to it and TOAW III grew on me.


This is one distinguishable aspect of TOAW. As an operational scale game it doesn't present the same appeal as tactical level games and the first steps, before one get used to the game system, can make it seem arbitrary (at least for me it seemed), but after you get used... well, just give yourself enough time and you'll see. There is a reason why Toaw is around after all those years (and for me this maturity is one of it's greatest advantages) against dozens of other more modern titles with 3d graphics, WEGO system, no hexes, etc.

In fact, I can't stand this kind of argument: 'The way wargames will be played in the future: no more hexes, real time...' etc. Let us all play Close Combat then: 'no more counters', 'no more strongly abstracted concepts'. I don't see old Combat Mission players satisfied with what was done with the new, 'more modern' version; nor would chess players be happy with a WEGO chess variant.
Don't understand me wrong... I'm not against those concepts, I just think a game doesn't have to use them necessarily. Well, but I don't know why I'm talking about those things; it has nothing to do with this thread... let me shut up.[sm=00000939.gif]




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