cost of buying from matrix (Full Version)

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animaluk -> cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 4:13:59 PM)

I cannot understand why your games are so exspensive. i have bought many of your titles but now paying 40 +tax here in the uk they just dont seem worth it.why so expesive what as changed.




Joshuatree -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 4:21:27 PM)

Same here animaluk. Reason I don't buy that many games is that physical delivery + taxes + blablabla makes the game costs more then 60, that would be like 80 bucks or so. I still buy them because a good game is worth it.... but I sure don't buy them easily.




Hertston -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 4:27:38 PM)

What has changed is principally the exchange rate. I've tried to explain the following on a couple of occasions;

that not adjusting to what we see as 'standard' prices makes Matrix products uncompetitive to UK/Euro buyers (particularly the former)

that slavishly sticking to straight currency conversions is not compulsary (Steam doesn't, for example)

that profit from the UK market would increase if the current policy was changed

and that US customers wouldn't somehow lose out, as they would pay exactly the same as they did before, the idea being that UK/Euro customers also pay much what they are used to paying, and still do buying from UK retailers.

Despite the example of Steam, Matrix don't seem able to grasp the concept. At least they are polite in saying 'no', which is more than can be said for the fanboy contingent who will now doubt drop in and accuse us of being whiners (a 'serial' one, in my case) and not 'supporting developers'. To be honest m8, it just isn't worth it. I'll buy a couple of Matrix titles this year, release dates permitting.. just not the half dozen or so I usually buy.




JudgeDredd -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 4:28:08 PM)

Well, I agree they are expensive, but that's only relative. I mean, bang for buck (it's been said many times) you get far more playing hours out of a wargame (decent one) for the price than probably any other hobby.

I was actually looking to buy Wacht Am Rhein the other day, and the physical + download + vat was pushing it towards 45...and I simply couldn't justify it because the game probably won't hold my attention for that long (I'm basing that fact on my purchase and experience with Cross of Iron).

So I agree...however, the wargaming industry is like evry other...it's got to turn a profit!

I don't mind paying 40+ for a decent wargame, but I am being more and more prudent nowadays (big shock for me). I still impulse buy, but a game has to be of particular interest to get over 30 from me.




V22 Osprey -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 4:38:18 PM)

NWS Online gaming store FTW.

Crown of Glory Emperor's Edition(physical Copy), 50 bucks plus 5 bucks shipping. [:D]

I dont need Digital Download, plus I pay 15 bucks cheaper than if I bought directly from Matrix.





Greybriar -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 4:45:28 PM)

The $10.85 Digital River charges for shipping and handling charges for Gary Grigsby's War Between The States to an address in the lower 48 U.S. states seems a bit excessive to me. [:(]




V22 Osprey -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 4:49:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

The $10.85 shipping and handling charges for a game to an address in the lower 48 U.S. states seems a bit excessive to me. [:(]



I do too, at first when I saw the charge I though I had accidently selected a different country.I think 11 bucks for shipping a DVD box to a place in the SAME country as the publisher is really, really steep.Like I said, NWS is the best as it sells most of Matrix games for 10 bucks less than than what matrix charges.Plus shipping is only 5 bucks.




Joshuatree -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 4:53:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

NWS Online gaming store FTW.

Crown of Glory Emperor's Edition(physical Copy), 50 bucks plus 5 bucks shipping. [:D]

I dont need Digital Download, plus I pay 15 bucks cheaper than if I bought directly from Matrix.




Five bucks? 27 hard earned dollahs for us you mean [:D] gosh.




Greybriar -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 4:58:59 PM)

I just took another look and found that Digital River charges $8.95 for shipping and handling if you choose the Economy Postal Mail option.




V22 Osprey -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 5:27:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joshuatree


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

NWS Online gaming store FTW.

Crown of Glory Emperor's Edition(physical Copy), 50 bucks plus 5 bucks shipping. [:D]

I dont need Digital Download, plus I pay 15 bucks cheaper than if I bought directly from Matrix.




Five bucks? 27 hard earned dollahs for us you mean [:D] gosh.



Oh, you are in the Netherlands, sorry.[:(]

But its a good buy for US customers.




cdbeck -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 6:30:10 PM)

FWIW, Steam and Gamersgate charge the exact same amounts of Euros as they do dollars. So if a game is $9.99 in the US, it is 9.99 Euros in France (which equates to more like $13.22). Now Steam and Gamersgate no longer add the VAT, so I don't think you are seeing that much of a difference in price (weeellll... other than how freedom loving Americans don't have to pay that VAT [;)]). I often have my Dad in the US "gift" a game off Steam to me, so I don't have to pay the higher Euros cost. Gamersgate won't let you do that, so you just have to pay the higher cost (although GG will let you use Paypal and use American $$ to pay the Euro price - something Steam's security won't allow).

IMHO, Impulse is the most competitively priced of the whole bunch, they actually DO translate the dollar cost into Euros and do NOT add a VAT. It's pretty great actually!

I agree with JD though, Matrix games tend to "stick" on my Hard drive more than games from other places. You do get a lot of bang for your buck (the SSI decisive battle series notwithstanding - sorry, I don't care for these). I do think that Matrix should do more sales (like the Blitz sale now) to help gamers who can't afford the premium prices (I know, I know, it sounds silly to argue that people should be able to buy games easier in a recession, but entertainment is one way people cope and not go crazy). Shrapnel Games has done this, and I think that they should be praised.

Still, I don't see the Matrix account books - so they must think their pricing plan works for them. If so, then I guess the proof is in the pudding.

SoM




Hertston -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 7:13:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

FWIW, Steam and Gamersgate charge the exact same amounts of Euros as they do dollars.



On the subject of those two, let me illustrate my point regarding UK purchasers. Prices are 1st Gamersgate, and then Steam, all in UK, VAT included.

Fallout 3, 40.46, 26.99

Elven Legacy, 26.99, 24.99

Tom Clancy's EndWar, 44.96, 34.99

Braid, 13.45, 9.99

etc, etc, etc. I've tried to pick typical titles across a range of prices, none of which are currently on any sort of special offer. The Steam price is pretty much the store price in the UK for Fallout 3 and Endwar. Elven Legacy is actually a fiver more expensive, Braid is online only. I'll let you compare $US prices yourselves.

Question, where is the average UK gamer going to buy his games? OK, the situation isn't analogous to Matrix as in their case there is rarely competition for the same products, but there is still competition for leisure time and,. these days, very limited money.






Perturabo -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 8:54:02 PM)

Blah, costs of buying strategic games from the west is ridculous. Too bad that the days when one could buy a decent strategic game in a store are over...




Erik Rutins -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 9:39:44 PM)

Exchange rates have been all over the place since we were founded and started selling games. IIRC, the current exchange rate is not the worst it's been by a long shot when it comes to UK customers. Our pricing has remained the same over the years, to price our games for gamers around the world at the same price we charge our US customers, given current currency conversion rates. We don't update these daily, so sometimes that works out to your advantage and sometimes to ours, but it's generally a trivial difference and we feel this is simply the most fair pricing policy for all our customers.

Please note also that the vast majority of our games are not retail releases, are not sold in the quantities that retail releases are and have to be priced at a reasonable level to earn back the development cost to justify future development. None of this is new. My assumption is that the main reason we're seeing some comments now is three-fold:

1. Times are tough and everyone's watching their spending (gaming is still one of the most economical forms of entertainment when it comes to that)
2. Some retail PC game prices have come down, whereas ours have largely remained stable (totally different economies of scale)
3. There are far more online game stores now than when we launched ours and they compete for gamer dollars by selling already oversold retail titles at steep discounts

Now I might add that our digital download option has always been a very affordable way to get a quality wargame. If the cost of shipping or the box bothers you, just go for the download, you can still burn it to a CD, print out the manual and you'll be just fine. We've also decreased prices on a number of our games over time and added a $19.99 and Under section to our store to highlight the most affordable ones.

Most of our new releases are in the $39.99 for a Download range, which we feel is a very fair price considering the small market and the development cost and the fact that these games are not generally available in retail or secondary markets (with the exception of a few legitimate dealers we do sell to, like NWS).

We do try to relieve price pressures periodically. For example, we're currently running a 35% off 3-day Blitzkrieg sale on three truly outstanding American Civil War wargames. If you check in here frequently enough to catch those, such sales and deals can also help defray the cost of owning our games.

Regards,

- Erik




PunkReaper -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 11:09:21 PM)

Talking of your 3-day Blitzkrieg sale I have to say they really annoy me. Oh I love the discount and I've just picked up Forge of Freedom, but as someone who regularly checks your site and who buys your games I get really annoyed when I am away/busy for a few days and miss these sales...[:@][:@] Is there no way to flag up that a sale will be occurring soon so that loyal customers can take advantage of it?




Hertston -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/25/2009 11:42:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Exchange rates have been all over the place since we were founded and started selling games. IIRC, the current exchange rate is not the worst it's been by a long shot when it comes to UK customers.


It dipped about a cent and a half below the current rate for a month in 2002. Other than that, the rate is the lowest since 1985. source

The reason you are seeing comments is that, in real terms to us, your games are nearly 40% more expensive than they were a year ago. Games in stores are 0% more expensive. Of course, rates do go up and down, and that of a year ago was particularly favourable (I bought a lot of games). But a 40% increase is not 'trivial' by any means. Anyway, point made. I'll be buying BftB and WitP:AE if nothing else!





madgamer2 -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/26/2009 12:11:34 AM)

Is this why earlier this year I wanted a hard copy+manual and storage case for ROTK !! because i had realoblems with both the download sites from the Koei site. I had a friend in England buy the game from amazon UK in British money and sent him by wire American. Even with the cost of sending by wire the game was about $50 American.
If by chance there was a game here on disk with manual and storage case that he wanted that was not available there It would cost him more because of the exchange rate. Could I buy the Hard copy+manual and storage case here and ship it to him and have him pay me in British money(which I would exchange at the bank) and would we both come out ahead?

only somewhat confused
Madgamer




madgamer2 -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/26/2009 12:16:59 AM)

Where I live here In Iowa USA there is a town about 19 miles away. Both my town and there town have regional post offices. I send a letter to a friend in MY town and it goes up to there town and then comes back. This is also true for them...I love the American postal system/

Madgamer




madgamer2 -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/26/2009 12:24:58 AM)

I live in the good old USA and the cost of the computer War In Europe game plus shipping $72 (plus $5 for priority mail) To justify this I have at least 2 games lined up but I will have to do the learning curve thing as I am reading the manual at the moment.

Madgamer




V22 Osprey -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/26/2009 12:47:57 AM)

I would rather buy something like JTCS twice than spend 50 bucks for Call of duty World at war with a campaign that I could beat in a day a couple multiplayer maps when for half the price I could have multiple campagins, editors, Battle generator, plenty of scenario which gives unlimited replayablility and gameplay hours.

I think the matrix games are worth it unlike these games today that are all about graphics and not about gameplay and replayability.




SS Hauptsturmfuhrer -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/26/2009 4:33:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

I would rather buy something like JTCS twice than spend 50 bucks for Call of duty World at war with a campaign that I could beat in a day a couple multiplayer maps when for half the price I could have multiple campagins, editors, Battle generator, plenty of scenario which gives unlimited replayablility and gameplay hours.

I think the matrix games are worth it unlike these games today that are all about graphics and not about gameplay and replayability.


Total agreement. The only games I actually keep on my desk in a small pile are the ones I bought here on Matrix cause I never get bored of them and I have to reinstall stuff sometimes due to hardware changes. The rest are sitting inside boxes somewhere. The extra 10 or 20 bucks or whatever I spend for a quality SSG title is well worth the premium over the mainstream stuff you can buy anywhere.

I reckon people here need to understand that the titles Matrix produces are very small projects, and without the advantage of mass distribution they can't possibly match the prices of the usual mainstream games. It's kind of a niche market so it's best to accept a bit higher price in exchange for better quality goods. Buying games here is a good way to ensure we keep getting quality games in the future.




Obsolete -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/26/2009 4:36:28 AM)

Well, I remember a time when I paid over 100$ for a super-duper game cartidge for my first NES. 

What will really make you cringe, is hearing what the title was...

ACTION-52

Anything that wasn't TERRIBLE was plagerized from other games.  I simply don't know how the developers & publisher never got their ass sued off.





Perturabo -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/26/2009 2:39:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

I would rather buy something like JTCS twice than spend 50 bucks for Call of duty World at war with a campaign that I could beat in a day a couple multiplayer maps when for half the price I could have multiple campagins, editors, Battle generator, plenty of scenario which gives unlimited replayablility and gameplay hours.

I think the matrix games are worth it unlike these games today that are all about graphics and not about gameplay and replayability.

Personally, I'd rather buy myself seven books or seven music CDs. For me, collecting 35 - 45 Euro, one Euro a day while resigning from buying anything else is a big no-no.




sapper_astro -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/26/2009 2:40:15 PM)

When I first came here, I, too, was shocked by the prices. I even made a post, similar to this one, especially about the shipping charges. Thankfully, this did make a difference and shipping came down. The game prices did not.

As has been stated, apart from the fact that the games here (usually) tend to hold the HD space for longer, the sliding scale needs to be applied.

If Joe Bloggs the wargame dev creates a game, he will not sell as many units as the next Call of Duty addon. Therefore, the price cannot really go down unless you do not want any more games from Bloggs. Our numbers do not permit the Gross Profit going below a certain percentage for the devs here. The CoD addon can afford to make a few dollars or less on every copy bought. We are talking hundreds of thousands of copies. The same cannot be said for wargaming.

Unless you can make half of the gaming population interested in hardcore wargaming, I am afraid that we will have to fork out the dollars on occasion. It does slow the spending down, and makes you look at a game quite a bit before you buy, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.




bink -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/26/2009 5:44:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Most of our new releases are in the $39.99 for a Download range, which we feel is a very fair price considering the small market and the development cost and the fact that these games are not generally available in retail or secondary markets (with the exception of a few legitimate dealers we do sell to, like NWS).

Regards,

- Erik


Erik, I have a few questions which arise from your post:

1. Why don't you make the games more widely available in retail markets? I have not found your products at retail, whereas I have found those of other wargamer makers, such as HPS Simulations.
2. What do you mean by secondary markets?
3. Why the emphasis on "legitimate" dealers you sell to - I assume it is a given you would not sell to illegitimate dealers?
4. Why not post a list of dealers on your website?

Thanks,

bink




06 Maestro -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/26/2009 5:49:13 PM)

Although I would like to see lower prices (and gladly take advantage of sales), I fully understand that they have to have reasonable profits. 50 to 70 buck seems like a lot, but again, as has been mentioned many times before, how many hours will you be entertained by those purchases? This is still a deal hard to beat.

In view of the giant commercial and government scams that are going on in our times (Chinese shoes and shirts costing 30 dollars here when those should cost 3, European governments doling out hundreds of millions-if not billions for China to build super polluting coal fire generating plants so the Europeans can feel "green", banks charging 10X the interest on mortgages than they pay in interest and so on), it seems to me that the guru's of Matrix Games pricing are, at least in heart, part of the proletariat.

Real income has fallen for nearly everyone for at least 30 years. This makes it more difficult to find the funds for recreational activities. The last ones to blame for this situation are small development companies that are struggling to stay in business.




06 Maestro -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/26/2009 7:08:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

I would rather buy something like JTCS twice than spend 50 bucks for Call of duty World at war with a campaign that I could beat in a day a couple multiplayer maps when for half the price I could have multiple campagins, editors, Battle generator, plenty of scenario which gives unlimited replayablility and gameplay hours.

I think the matrix games are worth it unlike these games today that are all about graphics and not about gameplay and replayability.


You are starting to sound like a gronard already[;)]-good for you.




105mm Howitzer -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/30/2009 2:29:24 PM)

Complain, complain, complain,wah, wah, wah...Ya, you guys have all excellent points, but here's one for thought...How much is the boardgame version in your city/country? Over here, the price of a new boxed wargame is grossly indecent. For example, back in 1981 or so, I bought Squad Leader, pasi about 25 $ for it. The year after, went and get COI, also for about 25$. Fast forward to 2003, where in my local gaming store, saw the same friggin game at *drum roll please* $ 157.99 !!!!! What the.....Know what the owner said? It's a collector's item. No it isn't, says I, it's just COI....Yeah, but now, they're hot collectibles. Checked it out, other games ( such as East Front II) was retailing at over $200.00
Bottom line, pc games are still ( relatively) cheap.

ps: You wanna try an expensive hobby? Might I recommend miniature trains or even better yet, RC aircraft/boats ?
Cheers




Perturabo -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/30/2009 3:17:54 PM)

Well, in Poland, local wargames from B35 system which usually include 200-400 counters, a board, an instruction and scenarios cost - 49-59PLN which is about 16,3 - 19,7$.

Miniature trains and other models are pretty hard to manufacture, which means that cheaper models usually have very poor quality.




Kuokkanen -> RE: cost of buying from matrix (4/30/2009 6:32:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

1. Times are tough and everyone's watching their spending (gaming is still one of the most economical forms of entertainment when it comes to that)

Erik means VIDEO gaming here. Many analog games, and gambling in particular, can be... not so economical. Seriously guys, new retail computer game from shelf costs as little (~50 ) as new rulebook for miniature wargame! And when that one miniature wargame has MANY rulebooks available for it + miniatures, mapsheets, sourcematerial... and just single handful of fellow players in next town [8|]

[edit]
Some of you may know this already from personal experience with Warhammers, D&D, BattleTech and others. Comments above are meant to those that don't.




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