The German term Sonderausführung (Full Version)

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Chris21wen -> The German term Sonderausführung (3/3/2009 5:50:08 PM)

I know the term Sonderausführung (Sd) translates to 'Special Equipment' but I fail to understand how they applied the the term. From 1939 - 41 German Pz units were often referred to as Pz (Sd) Rgt, Bn, Co etc. but from the scant evidence I've found they vary little in terms of the number or type of vehicles used.

Did they use Czech equipment for instance? I know its not French as captured French had their own KstN 1171c. It the KstN 1171(Sd) info I'm really after so any help would be appreciated.




old man of the sea -> RE: The German term Sonderausführung (3/4/2009 10:17:23 PM)

some Sd designations are in reference to the special snorkel gear the tanks had for deap water wading I suspect, but if you where more clear about what unit in particulare it would help.






Marc von Martial -> RE: The German term Sonderausführung (3/5/2009 8:52:00 AM)

KstN means "Kriegsstärkenachweisung", it is a chart of the theoretical strenght and organization of a unit.

KstN 1171 is part of the reorganization of the Panzer Regiments on 02/01/1941. 1171(Sd) is the "leichte Panzer-Kompanie (Sonder)" organization.

This is a platoon with (SD) part of the above dated KstN

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1168sd1feb41.htm


IIRC he (Sd) is not necessarily having to do with any special equipment on the tank / vehicle. In fact there was only one german tank that was modified for deep wading. The so called "Tauchpanzer" a modification of the Pz III F, G and H. Later again remodified with shorter snorkels after "Sea Lion" was cancelled. I do not recall that this special version was designated "Sonderausführung".

"Sonderausführung" (Sd) (Sd.) (Sd.Ausf.) just means that there is something special with it. Be it a single vehicle, weapon or unit structure. Totally depends on the context.

Example "Pz III Ausführung J (Sonderausführung)", it is the regular IIIj just with the a longer barrel main gun.




cantona2 -> RE: The German term Sonderausführung (3/5/2009 9:02:37 AM)

Didnt the Germans also use terms like these during the pre-war years to cover up the rearmament of the Wehrmacht and the creation of armoured units forbidden by Versailles?




Terminus -> RE: The German term Sonderausführung (3/5/2009 9:51:16 AM)

That was always my thought as well...




Chris21wen -> RE: The German term Sonderausführung (3/5/2009 1:33:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Didnt the Germans also use terms like these during the pre-war years to cover up the rearmament of the Wehrmacht and the creation of armoured units forbidden by Versailles?



I think thats the piece of info I'm after, I think!

I was interest in the Panzer KstN that were identified as (Sd) e.g. KstN 1103 (Sd), 1107 (Sd), 1175 (Sd) etc. All are dated Feb 41 or earlier. The information I've managed to obtain shows no special equipment except for subterfuge.




Doggie -> RE: The German term Sonderausführung (3/5/2009 7:17:01 PM)

What with all them supersized words, I can understand why Germans invented acronyms.

Did von Martial get one of the houseservants to type all that up for him? A Baron has more important things to do than peck out mini-manuscripts. There's suits of armor to try on and orgies to attend to.




Marc von Martial -> RE: The German term Sonderausführung (3/5/2009 9:26:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

What with all them supersized words, I can understand why Germans invented acronyms.

Did von Martial get one of the houseservants to type all that up for him? A Baron has more important things to do than peck out mini-manuscripts. There's suits of armor to try on and orgies to attend to.


What do you think, of course I got my personal forum lackey.
Now excuse-moi I have to check the if the castle guards are doing there job [:D]




Marc von Martial -> RE: The German term Sonderausführung (3/5/2009 9:28:01 PM)

Those long words is reason we lost the wars btw. it simply took too long to yell the orders.




KG Erwin -> RE: The German term Sonderausführung (3/6/2009 5:07:58 AM)

I find it interesting in that the US Marine Corps in WWII kept their reorganizations based on the divisional level, with the 1942 TOEs simply being called D-100. In 1943 was E-100, and in 1944 F-100. G-100 followed in 1945, but this organization wasn't formalized until the war ended.

By contrast, the Germans had a hopelessly overcomplicated system of KStN, which are fascinating to track, but seldom were fully equipped to compose the larger organizations they were meant to be elements of. To this day, other forums are filled with questions on "who had what equipment at a particular time".




Doggie -> RE: The German term Sonderausführung (3/6/2009 5:29:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

What do you think, of course I got my personal forum lackey.
Now excuse-moi I have to check the if the castle guards are doing there job [:D]


When you get a moment, have Rutkins brought to the dungeon and flogged. Not that he's done anything, but lackeys have to be kept in line.

And oh yeah, have Terminus placed in the Iron Maiden. Post it on You Tube and you'll be an internet sensation.




Chris21wen -> RE: The German term Sonderausführung (3/6/2009 12:27:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

I find it interesting in that the US Marine Corps in WWII kept their reorganizations based on the divisional level, with the 1942 TOEs simply being called D-100. In 1943 was E-100, and in 1944 F-100. G-100 followed in 1945, but this organization wasn't formalized until the war ended.

By contrast, the Germans had a hopelessly overcomplicated system of KStN, which are fascinating to track, but seldom were fully equipped to compose the larger organizations they were meant to be elements of. To this day, other forums are filled with questions on "who had what equipment at a particular time".


I agree that it does complicate thing now but not then.

A Kriegsstärkenachweisungen (KStN) and roughly translates to 'Wartime strength instructions' or TOE. The big difference is it’s based on company sized units whereas the TOE is battalion sized or larger. Bigger organisations were put together using the KstN system according to a Gliederung (arrangement).

The issue of a KstN affected all units using it and in theory they all had to comply by the date of the KstN, the older ones being destroyed. A KstN like TOE is what they should have not what they do have.

KstNs also make putting together adhoc formations simple and the Germans were good at that. Another thing that makes the German system more flexible is companies had their own support elements (until end 1944 anyway). The allied support was at battalion level.

In practice few if any units reached anywhere near to their allocated levels other than maybe during the first two years, especially if they had been in combat. Even in the rear shortages were a big problem to them.

This however is true of any army during the period and still is. The only time any unit is likely to be at full authorised strength is during their initial organisation in its depot.




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