RE: Allied Resistance (Full Version)

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2ndACR -> RE: Allied Resistance (1/6/2009 6:53:21 AM)

Ouch, well, I would feel better if a couple warships could blast Naga until taken......I will pray your BB's drain the water quickly so they can do the job. I have seen Naga be a PITA to take.

John 3rd -> RE: Allied Resistance (1/6/2009 7:31:46 AM)

PITA?  I think I am scared to ask what this means...

2ndACR -> RE: Allied Resistance (1/6/2009 8:26:30 AM)

Pain In The *SS

ny59giants_MatrixForum -> LUZON!! (1/6/2009 3:51:59 PM)

Time to give you guys some insight on taking Luzon. You MUST get to Clark ASAP!! Your LBA needs to bomb their troops at Lingayan with everything you can get your hands on. If you don't have CA/BB available, send in CL with DDs to bomb that base. Now to explain why this is important.

They will get 3 x LCU at Bataan in the first month with over 400 Assault Value. The only way they get to Manila is via Clark. Baguio is a mtn hex. Thus, a large combat bonus. However, there is only one easy way to approach that base and that is from Clark (road without a river to cross). To get troops from Baguio to Lingayan you need to go through Clark. If you try the direct route, you go by trail and we all know how long that takes. [:D]  If you try to get to Baguio from the east you go over the river and get the automatic shock attack.

In the south Naga is a woods hex (x2). The hex between there and Manila is clear. They start with 2 divisions and a BF there. Most of the Philippine Divisions start with their experieicne levels below 50. The longer a base is under siege, the quicker they will get to that magic number and make your life very difficult.

John 3rd -> RE: LUZON!! (1/6/2009 3:54:02 PM)


John 3rd -> RE: LUZON!! (1/6/2009 3:58:59 PM)

Sorry--that was the knee-jerk Japanese answer to anything he isn't sure how to respond to!  [8D]

I think what you are suggesting is exactly what Q-Ball is attempting to do.  I sure could use the 38th Inf Div to take this over-the-top but it is still in the hills outside of Hong Kong.

Brad---Do you THINK the Chinese are going to be actually stupid enough to attack us at Canton?  For readers:  there are three Chinese units that have arrived in Canton with 3 more in the road hex NW of Canton.  It would appear they are going to attack.  We have an Inf Div, 2 Combat Commands, and some artillery/support troops.  There is little chance of them scoring any sort of victory but it is puzzling to see.  I'd wait to attack them until we get our troops at Hong Kong back.

If we force them to retreat and hurt them badly then we have a real chance of taking Wuchow to the NW.

Q-Ball -> RE: LUZON!! (1/6/2009 4:27:47 PM)

Regarding LUZON, that is the plan; all the troops at San Fernando, save the Shuzan Nav Gd, are marching on Lingayen, where intel reports 2 units. After taking Lingayen, a quick left-turn to Clark. This will either smoke them out of Baguio, or cut them off, either way serves our purpose. I have those Bataan reinforcements on our radar; if they pull back to Manila, we will pause and take Bataan next. If they do NOT pull back to Manila, we will hold everyone in place and march a division to Bataan. Either way, we need to take Bataan.

Alot also hinges on Naga. Intel reports 3 units, likely the start forces, which should be quick work for 2 IJA Divisions plus tanks and artillery. If Naga falls, he will have to pull everyone back on Manila or risk really getting cut up.

We will find out alot about Luzon, like Malaya, in the next couple days. Will they pull back or fight in place? That is also true at Khota Bharu, where those troops are still there, even though 4 divisions are barelling down the West coast. They have to start moving very soon, or stay on that rail line.

RE: Canton, hard to say if they will attack. I moved 2/3 of a division in there just in case, I feel better with those units plus that Mixed Bde. I think it more likely they are occupying the hex to keep us pinned in Canton. That's a tough nut for the Chinese.

In hindsight, perhaps we should have kept some CAs near Luzon, but that's 20/20. We do have IJA bombers available to hit everything. Appari is just about to size 4.

2ndACR -> RE: LUZON!! (1/6/2009 4:33:10 PM)

Standard move.......Place troops in Canton, stop any further advance from there, halt all production in Canton while he is there. Nice thing about Canton, it has a port so it can be bombarded from the sea. If you had the ships for it.

Basically it is be a PITA to you move. China is the one place where the Allies can be PITA for the Japanese. Lots of troops close to yours. They could even be doing it just to train the troops experience wise. I do it, try and get as many of my Chinese units to the 70's experience. They become a major PITA when they hit 70+ exp.

Q-Ball -> RE: LUZON!! (1/6/2009 4:40:03 PM)

Happened in my other game too. Once the Fuso's have nothing better to do, we can always park them at Canton pier and bombard the Chinese every day. That at least makes them pay in blood to stay.

On a side note, it looks like our opponents may not be keeping up an AAR as much; that's too bad. It's way at the bottom of the AAR list now, and only has about a dozen posts. I hope it gets more active; I have really enjoyed reading John/Dan's AAR on both sides, that is a very interesting way to read AARs.

John 3rd -> RE: LUZON!! (1/6/2009 5:36:19 PM)

Q-Ball--I am taking off to see my Father (with Operation Arctic Wind launched in Forlorn Hopes) so handle any incoming turn before I get back home.

If they do attack Canton lets try to use it to our advantage.  Get HK taken care of and we'll see what we can then do about these Chinese gnats.

I-too--am disappointed with the other AAR.  Paul is usually pretty good at doing those.

John 3rd -> RE: LUZON!! (1/7/2009 9:26:25 PM)

Q-Ball and I will do a major update in a bit.  We just sent the 12/21 turn to the bad guys.

Q-Ball -> RE: John's Questions (1/7/2009 11:55:34 PM)

December 21st Notes

The last few days has seen some good progress in Malaya, DEI, and Phillipines. The other positive event is a decent amount of Allied air losses; many Bolos, some TIVas, some Martins, in general destroying aircraft that can still be a threat.

I believe that the Allies have withdrawn most of their surface forces from the SRA. The USN Cruisers were destroyed, the Dutch cruisers took some damage, Nells are stationed now at Kendari and Kuching, and they also know we have 2 CV groups in the SRA. This, plus the recent air losses, means that I think we can up the tempo and really drive home issues in the DEI.

3 2/3 Divisions have reached Taiping, and will shock attack/pursue tommorow. I expect this to work as the defenders fled Georgetown easily two days ago. On the East Coast of Malaya, I moved 1/3 of a division, 16/C, on Khota Bharu. For whatever reason, they attacked it yesterday, with very bad results for the Allies. Today, I see they are retreating from this base. Not sure if they will go all the way to Singapore or not. Either way, the advanced Indian Bdes won't be worth much by the time we reach Singapore in force. This bodes well for an early conquest.

Lingayen fell to a 6-1 attack on the first try. Now the fun begins! Most of these troops are now marching to Clark; they will have to pull out of Baguio, or be cut off. The Southern Luzon invasion force is going to shock attack/pursue Naga; initial intel suggests that only two PA division are present. The next couple days should be interesting. I think the Allies are going to have to fall back on Manila quickly now, or risk being cut in two.

Here we are picking up the tempo. Several TFs with supplies and base forces are steaming for Jolo and Kendari to provide follow-on invasion support, while several invasion TF's set sail:
From Kendari:
Lautem, Koepang, and Dili will sail simultaneously in two days
From Medado: Makassar
From Jolo: Balikpapan is loading (3 SNLF units). A last unit is prepping there for Banjarmisan.
Base forces are in transit for most of these targets as well.

This is all setting up for the Invasion of JAVA. We are beginning to gather units and shipping for this important target. Baby KB is refueling at Saigon. We also have the following units close to ready to load for a landing on Java:
Davao: 56th Bde
Saigon: 21st Div, 21st and 23rd Mixed Bde, 4th Mixed Regt, 2 Eng Regts, 2 Base Forces, Artillery, AA units.
We need a couple days to get ships into ports, and also get a couple supply convoys to Saigon, but I think we can sail around the 27th or 28th with all these forces. This should be plenty to land on Java, and at least begin the conquest.

OVERALL, I think we need to really take some risks and move fast, for a couple reasons. First, we need to keep a tight timetable to invade India in February. Second, we want to keep the "Skeer" on; they are probably a little blue about the naval losses and speed of advance in the DEI, let's keep up the full court press.

John 3rd -> RE: John's Questions (1/8/2009 12:34:42 AM)

Q-Ball is very humble in his description of things.  He is running a magnificent DEI--Malaya--Phil Campaign.  I commented that I wasn't able to keep up with the TF!  Some Japanese players do not think far enough ahead in terms of the current invasion, the next one, and the third in three weeks.  So far our planning has been highly successful. 

I cannot help but think that this is partially because of bringing Hiryu and Soryu south.  They helped smash the Manila Bay ships and then destroyed the American cruisers.  In doing this they have opened the door to the invasions in the Eastern DEI.

Adm Yamaguchi departed Amboina two days ago and is now south of Timor.  The plan is to move to the NW Corner of Australia and then backtrack TOWARDS Java to hit anything that might be moving in the area.  Perhaps we can hit some fully loaded AP/AK/TK in this sweep.  The Japanese Cvs are down only 4 aircraft for their operations so far.

The invasion has begun with the Burma Army about to enter Moulmein.  The Allies appear to have fallen all the way back to Mandalay.  An easy conquest, with little cost to the troops, of southern Burma could truly set-up the landings in India!

Brad and I are now discussing the Lashio Landing by Paratroops.

One concern I have is the absense of the AVG.  Maybe it sits in Singapore but I doubt it.  I have been doing Recon on Rangoon, Lashio, Moulmein, and Taung Gyi.  There are a few AVG at Mandalay but never more then a squardon it would appear.

Central Pacific
The atoll finally falls and troops are being shuffled south.  There are two Naval Guard left to garrison the atoll along with a large Base Force. 

This base is building up rapidly.

South Pacific
The good Port here will serve us well so it is invaded on the 20th.  The Naval Guard here will then redeploy to Lunga directly afterwards.  A Base Force is destined for Tulagi and a Special Base Force will land at Lunga.  Several Construction Btn will aide the building and expansion here.

The Invasion Forces are currently loading at Kwajalein for these targets.  Initial forces are a large Naval Guard and Construction Btn for each objective.  Follow-on forces left Samah and Tokyo for these locations at the start of the war and in the last few days.

After a somewhat screwed-up landing, the base fell on Dec 19th.  A Special Base Force and 56th Inf Div performed the landing.  The 56th will reload and move with the South Seas Force to Port Moresby within the next 2-3 days.

To the surprise of the Japanese the NLF tasked with landing here found the NVGR Btn resisting them.  The follow-on convoys piled up and are now landing as well.  A Base Force, 2 NLF, and a HQ unit are landing right now and I will take the base the day after tomorrow.

Milne Bay
Rounding the tip of New Britain is a Special Base Force that will land here in 3 days. 

Naval Action
To the surprise of both Brad and me it appears that the cruisers in this area meant to fight.  They squashed the Malang Invasion Force but then pmoved steadily SE.  Several AP/AK were spotted as well.  Out SS have bagged and damaged a few of them but my STF haven't caught anything as of yet.

The KB
This situation should change pretty fast as the KB (tan, rested, and ready) enters the Coral Sea tomorrow.

North Pacific
Probably to the great surprise of the Allies the Japanese land on this island Dec 21st.  It will fall tomorrow and the base building shall begin through the rest of the winter.

John 3rd -> Choices...Choices...Choices (1/8/2009 5:23:46 AM)

We open this topic for discussion...


John 3rd -> RE: Choices...Choices...Choices (1/8/2009 5:27:23 AM)

These were Brad's original thoughts for a site:

Before too long we will need to start prepping units for India.  I am looking at the map for a place to come ashore.  Here is my thinking on the candidates:

1.  Vizingapatam:  It's perfect; clear terrain, no base force, right on a rail line, you can build it, perfect....the only problem is that it is also VERY VERY obvious!  I would expect at least a division there, maybe 2, with pretty good forts.  Maybe we go there anyway, but this is the most obvious spot.

2.  Ceylon:  If we do not land at Viz, we probably need to clear Ceylon.  The good news is that it is very unlikely to be defended on the ground by other than base forces.  Bad news:  The Base Forces have a NASTY amount of CD guns, 2 x 9.2in, and 18x6in (Yikes!).  Expect ship losses coming ashore.  Once ashore, pretty easy conquest.

3.  Southern India:  Presumes pre-conquest of Ceylon; it's out of the way, and not a great spot.  Landing should be easy however, I would expect little to no ground troops down there, except for maybe a brigade on Madras (if they are smart). 

4.  Madras:  Well, invading an urban hex is rarely a good idea.  There is likely to be big forts, but not alot of troops.

5.  Mangalore/Pangim:  Both would probably require a pre-conquest of Ceylon.  Both would probably be pretty easy.

6.  Chittagong:  Probably they wouldn't expect that.  But also a big base force.

There are CD guns all over India, except at Viz and Trivandrum.

Looking at this, though I much prefer surprises, I probably favor a large landing straight in on Vizingapatam.  What do you think?

Canoerebel -> RE: Choices...Choices...Choices (1/8/2009 5:42:53 AM)

Assuming you're able to stick to your February timetable, you have much going for you and your opponents are going to be extremely stressed. Don't overdo the thinking about what THEY can do; most of your emphasis should be on what YOU can do and how you can apply maximum pressure.

Your opponents will begin to "suspect" that India is in your plans eventually. But they've got too few units and too much coastline and a natural desire to protect the Mandalay line.

Other than that they can only hope that time and LBA will allow them to absorb your blow.

In the games I've played I left Viz essentially vacant because I felt I had higher priorities to protect. In February '42 the Allied player just can't defend all the Indian bases. You'll get ashore, and you'll advance far, but what can you do to avoid losing the initiative? You want to keep him off balance and reacting to threats.

In my game with Miller he easily took Ceylon by landing at Trincomalee. I don't remember him suffering much damage. I didn't garrison Ceylon early on in my game with John because I felt like it was nothing more than a potential prison camp. It's certainly a nice "unsinkable carrier" for the Japs to pick up, but I might not let it distract me from the primary objective -getting ashore in big numbers behind the enemy lines and moving out. You can probably pick up Ceylon easy later if you have the ships and a few brigades available.

If I was going for auto-victory premised on a conquest of India, I'd want my opponents menaced on the Mandalay line while I obtained a huge beachhead with troops moving out fast and threatening envelopments of troop concentrations and seizure of key bases.

I'd be having a heart attack. But then I'd try to figure out some way to take advantage of the Jap focus on India. :)

John 3rd -> RE: Choices...Choices...Choices (1/8/2009 6:04:42 AM)


What are you doing up at this hour??!!

Great thoughts.  I agree that if we land with overwhelming force (ie 4-6 Inf Div and support) we should be able to really roll.  Brad and I favor Viza as the target with a quick move to the east. 

I just emailed Brad a note saying that it appears our opponents have abandoned all of south and central Burma to us.  My troops will reach Moulmein tomorrow and take the city.  We will officially commence Operation Monsoon at that point with the Parachute Landing at Lashio.  Hanoi is now Lvl-4 AF and we will have nearly 200 Transports to fly in both Regiments. 

The goal is to panic the Allies a bit and keep those Chinese out.

We will then demonstrate around Mandalay to make it LOOK like we're going after the town.  The reality is that we could care a less.  We want those troops at Mandalay and Myitkyna when our attack in India occurs.  They won't be able to pull back along those trails before we are in their backyard (hopefully).  At that point they will be squashed like a bug!  [:D][&o][:D]  We hope...

If anyone has a better landing site please let us know.

Also--Dan you are right that we can expect a counter somehow from the Allies and that--realistically--will fall on me in the Central/South Pacific.  It might get pretty interesting and sporty!

Mike Solli -> RE: Choices...Choices...Choices (1/8/2009 2:28:26 PM)

The only concern I have about the landing at Vizingapatam is that it's isolated.  What is the size of the airfield.  If it's less than 4, I'd be really concerned.  No 2E bomber support.  I'd want a support base.  The obvious one is Ceylon.  There would be good ports for damaged ships and good airfields for air support.  I'm not sure how many ground forces you have available, but, if you have enough, I'd invade Trincomalee and then land at one (or both) of the western bases along the Indian coast a couple of days later.  By having Ceylon, you have a nice, secure base and don't have to keep your carriers there for air support.  Yeah, you'll take a lot of merchant ship damage, but you can afford the merchant ships.

Edit: Do any of your TRs have the range to drop at Trincomalee? If so, you can use paratroopers to assist when you land. That'll help a bunch when you attack there. The quicker you take the place, the less your ship damage will be.

ny59giants_MatrixForum -> RE: Choices...Choices...Choices (1/8/2009 3:03:01 PM)

The first question is if you two have decided to just conquer the SE corner of India or going to take out the whole country??

If just the SE corner, then Vizagapatam would be a good choice.

If the whole country, then Mangalore & Pangim would be my major landing. But first, I would grab Trivandrum AF 1(4) to suppress Columbo as it will probably be undefended. On the same day as you take Trivandrum, land on Addu Atoll (Port 0(2) & AF 0(2)) with a NLF, BF (Aviation Support 90), and 6 construction engineers. You can use this base to unpack your short legged LBA that cannot reach Triv from Port Blair. Addu Atoll to Columbo is only 10 hexes, thus your Zeros can escort bombing attacks. You will also bottle up the Arabian Sea.

Canoerebel -> RE: Choices...Choices...Choices (1/8/2009 4:17:18 PM)

My two cents: My primary objective would be to ruin the British in India by threatening the Mandalay to the front and then landing a massive army just behind with the goal being to trap and destroy the Allied army caught in between.  Landing at Viz puts you in a good position to pursue that objective and goal.  Secondary objectives would be to seize the "wide open" territory to the west and south (it'll be easy going, after all, for quite some time) and to get Ceylon on the cheap if I can.  If you can get the airfields at Ceylon up and running and also airfields along the coast, doesn't that free up the KB to then head back to the Pacific to deal with the Americans?

I would want to capture the entire Indian sub-continent if possible, but my first order of business would be to wipe out the "trapped British army" or to at least open up the road/supply line between my army in India and Rangoon/Mandaly.  Once I've accomplished that I can turn my full attention to conquering the rest of India.

Q-Ball -> RE: Choices...Choices...Choices (1/8/2009 6:02:12 PM)

Ceylon is a deathtrap for both sides; whoever controls the air over it, will eventually control the ground under it. For this reason, we can land on it simultaneously with an invasion at Viz, and it won't take more than a Brigade to take it. If it does, that's just a bonus because those Allied troops will end up in our POW camp.

I favor a landing in force at VIZ, with a simulataneous Brigade landing at Trincomalee. This will give us a base in the area, and guard against the RN while we build up Viz. We could prep a small unit plus base force for a landing on at Triv at D+10 or so; once they see a large force landing at Viz, all those cities in Southern India figure to empty out, which means a small force can easily clear it all out without diverting further from our main effort.

If we are fast, we won't ever need KB. We can use Baby KB + Car Div 2. 4 IJN CV's are enough to keep the USN honest until March 1942, at which point we are hopefully ashore at India, and Car Div 2 is moving back to Truk. This is a key advantage of an early landing. After March, we will need to keep Bettys in India, but that should be enough to keep the RN honest.

Finally, RE: Mandalay, the town itself isn't important, but it is important to take Myitkina if we can. That will keep the Chinese in Norther Burma, where they will still be a threat, but will also be constantly low on supplies.

Mike Solli -> RE: Choices...Choices...Choices (1/8/2009 6:26:31 PM)

What's the state of the RN?

Q-Ball -> RE: Allied Resistance (1/8/2009 10:06:08 PM)

State of the RN? Good question Mike. It's intact, save for the Hong Kong DDs. We can count on it all being there when we advance.

I haven't sighted a single RN surface ship other than those DDs. Methinks Force Z ran back to India, probably not unwise given the presence of CVs in the DEI, plus Nells.

The other surface fleets in the SRA are more or less accounted for. We put a TT into Tromp Dec 7th, and haven't seen her since. We lost 3 DD's at Balikpapan, but they did pepper the other two CLs, and sank/disabled 2 DDs. The US Asiatic Fleet's surface units are all basically sunk.

2ndACR -> RE: Allied Resistance (1/8/2009 10:33:49 PM)

Land at Viz, have all your armor units in one group head up the rail line to Hyberbad followed by aviation reg and Infantry Reg.......that gives you a level for air base, it has resources so you get supply........have one div move north, 2-3 move towards Calcutta, with 2-3 heading for Madras.

Once the aviation reg and Infantry reg arrive Hyberbad, well your armor and scoot just about anywhere. Real quick.

If going for Ceylon, well I would use 2 Div for total conquest........but main force would still land at Viz.......the faster to cut off Burma from supply.

Canoerebel -> RE: Allied Resistance (1/8/2009 11:24:04 PM)

There are probably many options, but I wouldn't commit large units elsewhere until I had achieved my primary objectives of isolated the British Army in Burma and establishing a landine of supply back to Rangoon.  IE, I'd throw almost everything I had into that effort (but could probably spare some smaller units to gobble up some territory and obtain some other air bases. IF (big IF) you succceed in isolating and destroying the British army in Burma/NE India and open a road to Rangoon, then you should be in a great position to take the war to the rest of the Sub-continent or turn your attention elsewhere.  Everything depends on defeating the British in that neck and opening the road - if you don't, you're divided and things will go badly.

2ndACR -> RE: Allied Resistance (1/8/2009 11:30:32 PM)

Well, I have tried to march out of Burma when someone hit India.........might as well just surrender your are talking months on trails etc.

Plenty of time to get to Calcutta, isolate with 2 div, use the other one to finish cutting off Burma. Place the IJA Burma force right across the river from Mandalay and that will hold his attention.

I would not trust 1 brigade to take Ceylon against any fort level and not landing right on the base with the added disruption etc.

Against 2 div, there is basically nothing in the Allied force in India that can break thru, or destroy........I would even stay north of the rivers of Calcutta and force the Allied player to shock attack across to break my lines for supply. Once the armor is in the back field, well any Allied response is subject to being cutoff from supply at any time. It is basically impossible to defend India against a determined IJN player if they use the kitchen sink approach. Not in this time frame. You need alot of Chinese in India to have a hope.

There is more than enough supply/resources/industry in southern India to make any army self sustaining. Once you have just cutoff Burma from supply, well then you can destroy it at your leisure and China also starves. So taking India/just cutting off Burma makes 2 (Burma and China) basically easy to take.

I would not take on any forces in Burma until I had cut the supply 2 cents. You will need more than 2 Div to destroy the Burma forces.

John 3rd -> RE: Allied Resistance (1/9/2009 12:22:26 PM)

I've been so wrapped up with the Forlorn Hopes AAR that I hadn't caught this discussion.  Great thoughts from you guys.  I agree that we should land at Viza and "drive like Hell" (to quote General Horrocks) in all directions with the armor while isolating the Burmese Army ASAP.

If we can stick to our envisioned timetable of a February landing, we should be able to deal with the Royal Navy.  I still put out hope that we can find and destroy some of it prior to the landing.  This is why CarDiv2 is off prowling looking for trouble. 

Brad and I have been emailing back-and-forth over how our opponents are fighting in Malaya and the Philippines.  We are somewhat perplexed by their fighting choices to this point.  Think I'll leave it to Brad for the commentary but we decided to (probably) add 38th Inf Div to the Luzon Force in hopes of pushing an early victory there.

The Japanese should be at Johore Bharu by January 1st.

John 3rd -> Allied Resistance--Philippines and Borneo (1/9/2009 1:29:11 PM)

Here is this region:


John 3rd -> Allied Resistance--Malaya and Borneo (1/9/2009 1:35:53 PM)

Region 2:


John 3rd -> Allied Resistance--Eastern DEI (1/9/2009 1:40:48 PM)

Region 3:


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