Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (Full Version)

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Joe D. -> Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 2:20:20 AM)

From the NYT, Dec 6, 08.

"It has remained one of World War II’s most enduring mysteries, one that resonated decades later after Sept. 11: Who in Washington knew what and when before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941?

Specifically, who heard or saw a transcript of a Tokyo shortwave radio news broadcast that was interrupted by a prearranged coded weather report? The weather bulletin signaled Japanese diplomats around the world to destroy confidential documents and codes because war with the United States, the Soviet Union or Britain was beginning ..."

See story at: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/07/us/07pearl.html?_r=1&em




junk2drive -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 2:31:14 AM)

I just returned from listening to a Pearl Harbor survivor tell his tale.

Won't be long and they will be gone or won't remember.




Joe D. -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 12:59:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

... Won't be long and they will be gone or won't remember.


I'm surprised they can still remember now.

BTW, great avatar!




Yogi the Great -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 1:16:55 PM)

Hard to say, radio broadcast or not, it is at least reasonable to belive that some in the government knew that an attack would happen some where.

The New Deal was a failure despite what many think today.  War was needed to get the U.S. out of the depression.  Whatever the case, it was not FDr that ended the depression with domestic politcal moves, it was the the "war machine" that would end up revitalizing the economy and US industrial power.




Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 2:55:33 PM)

Tora! Tora! Tora! got me thinking about the possibility that senior officials in the USA government were aware of the coming attack. The first conspiracy movie perhaps? [:(]

PoE (aka ivanmoe)




sol_invictus -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 2:55:35 PM)

It is certainly true that American military and political leaders were expecting a possible attack in the near future, but nobody thought the Japanese could pull off an attack so far east. The Phillipines was the concensus target. Of course, we were caught with our pants down there as well.

I agree that the New Deal was a failure and Rosevelt did feel that America would eventually need to enter the war, but I simply refuse to believe that there was some conspiracy to let the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor in order ease American entry into the war. It absolutely makes no sense. Would Americans have been less inclined to war if America had been prepared at PH and dealt the Japanese a stunning setback? Of course not. There would still have been a war and we would have entered it in much better shape. I also don't believe such a secret could be kept secret for so long. I await proof of such a conspiracy.




Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 3:05:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald
I also don't believe such a secret could be kept secret for so long.


It depends on who's keeping the secret and for whom it's being kept. [;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald
I await proof of such a conspiracy.


There's a documentary called Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor that details a conspiracy of sorts which involved the UK/Churchill. The documentary indicated that "they" were aware of the attack and limited dissemination of this knowledge believing that the actions of the Japanese would draw the USA into the war against Germany. The story dovetails nicely with the inaccessibility of George Marshall in the twelve hours before that attack, itself. Who knows?

I would note, however, that there's a lot of apparently "believable" work that's been done about 9/11 that is 100% fiction, and the creators will occasionally acknowledge it as such. It's simply propaganda.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)




Canoerebel -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 3:09:52 PM)

Yes, it is absolutely true that the US expected Japanese aggression somewhere, but they were looking at the Philippines and other targets; they weren't expecting Pearl Harbor.

Anybody who thinks the US goverment knew the Japs were going to hit Pearl and ignored it on purpose is willing to discard reliable, overwhelming evidence in favor of assertions that have no basis in fact.  Back when I was a lawyer, I wanted people like that on my jury if I had a really bad case.  If I had a really good case, I didn't want those kinds of folks - I looked for those who actually knew how to weigh evidence and come to rational conclusions.




sterckxe -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 3:55:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Yes, it is absolutely true that the US expected Japanese aggression somewhere, but they were looking at the Philippines and other targets; they weren't expecting Pearl Harbor.


Prior to Pearl Harbour the US army/air force was concentrating all their new equipment, including B-17's, in the Philippines. Too bad they put MacArthur in charge there and that he kept the modern aircraft within striking range of bombers from Japan proper resulting in their loss on the ground. And that was *after* Pearl Harbour so he knew an attack was imminent. Most overrated US WWII general in my eyes.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 4:11:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Yes, it is absolutely true that the US expected Japanese aggression somewhere, but they were looking at the Philippines and other targets; they weren't expecting Pearl Harbor.


Prior to Pearl Harbour the US army/air force was concentrating all their new equipment, including B-17's, in the Philippines. Too bad they put MacArthur in charge there and that he kept the modern aircraft within striking range of bombers from Japan proper resulting in their loss on the ground. And that was *after* Pearl Harbour so he knew an attack was imminent. Most overrated US WWII general in my eyes.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Man, those guys had been on garrison duty too long. The fact that a war with the Axis Powers was underway had totally escaped many of the top-brass. Too much golf and not enough attention to minding the store?




sterckxe -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 4:41:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Yes, it is absolutely true that the US expected Japanese aggression somewhere, but they were looking at the Philippines and other targets; they weren't expecting Pearl Harbor.


Prior to Pearl Harbour the US army/air force was concentrating all their new equipment, including B-17's, in the Philippines. Too bad they put MacArthur in charge there and that he kept the modern aircraft within striking range of bombers from Japan proper resulting in their loss on the ground. And that was *after* Pearl Harbour so he knew an attack was imminent. Most overrated US WWII general in my eyes.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Man, those guys had been on garrison duty too long. The fact that a war with the Axis Powers was underway had totally escaped many of the top-brass. Too much golf and not enough attention to minding the store?


Yup, but while admiral Kimmel and <name of army guy escapes me - Short ?> were dismissed over Pearl Harbour, the even more criminally mismanaged Philippines defence was glossed over. Then the guy ran away from his command and was heralded as a hero ??? Must have been that the US was short of heroes/good news at the time because if I were FDR I would have *ordered* MacArthur to stay where he was.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




Greybriar -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 5:14:51 PM)

I don't understand why some of you feel that the New Deal was a failure. I have no doubt that parts of the New Deal were failures but I would not lump all the New Deal's programs into one basket and declare the entire thing a failure. Would you declare Social Security to be a failure? I certainly wouldn't. There are a number of other New Deal programs that still exist today. Would they still be around 70+ years if they were failures?

As for the topic of this thread, I can neither confirm nor deny its accuracy.




Joe D. -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 5:18:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Hard to say, radio broadcast or not, it is at least reasonable to belive that some in the government knew that an attack would happen some where ...


Back in the 30's Col Mitchell said Japan would attack PH; the US promptly apologized.




Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 5:20:28 PM)

I *think* that the USN also wargamed the scenario in the 1930s.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)




Joe D. -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 5:31:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

I *think* that the USN also wargamed the scenario in the 1930s.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


Like when the IJN "wargamed" Midway?

"As the bird on the branch,
As the ? in the heart of the night,
I have sought my freedom"?

Where's that from?




Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 5:40:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
Like when the IJN "wargamed" Midway?


I dunno, but the fact that they wargamed it suggests that an attack wasn't inconceivable.

quote:

"As the bird on the branch,
As the ? in the heart of the night,
I have sought my freedom"?

Where's that from?


Its from a Leonard Cohen song, "Bird on a Wire."

It should translate this way:

Like a bird on a branch
In the form of a drunk at the heart of the night
I have searched for my freedom

PoE (aka ivanmoe)




Jeffrey H. -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 7:23:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Yes, it is absolutely true that the US expected Japanese aggression somewhere, but they were looking at the Philippines and other targets; they weren't expecting Pearl Harbor.


Prior to Pearl Harbour the US army/air force was concentrating all their new equipment, including B-17's, in the Philippines. Too bad they put MacArthur in charge there and that he kept the modern aircraft within striking range of bombers from Japan proper resulting in their loss on the ground. And that was *after* Pearl Harbour so he knew an attack was imminent. Most overrated US WWII general in my eyes.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Man, those guys had been on garrison duty too long. The fact that a war with the Axis Powers was underway had totally escaped many of the top-brass. Too much golf and not enough attention to minding the store?


So there's both sides of the discussion, a conspiracy to draw the US into the war or blind, inexcusable negligence in hindsight.






Jeffrey H. -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 7:25:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Hard to say, radio broadcast or not, it is at least reasonable to belive that some in the government knew that an attack would happen some where ...


Back in the 30's Col Mitchell said Japan would attack PH; the US promptly apologized.




It's a huge embarassment that Mitchell was so ignored until after he managed to bomb Tokyo.




ezzler -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/8/2008 9:04:01 PM)

Its been posted already but the massive flaw of the conspiracy theorists is that their "why" arguments are so weak.

"why" sink the Pacific fleet and damage a major naval base just before embarking on a naval war?
"why not" move the fleet to San Diego the day before and allow the attack to hit an empty port.

"Why" fly aircraft into the financial centre of the USA, crashing the economy and the airlines business just before embarking on a major war. Then blame it all on Afghanistan because you want to fight Iraq?
"Why not" foil the plot by having armed guards on the planes?

Pearl Harbour has been fantastically well researched. There was just the usual conspiracy of complacency,disbelief,Snafu's, wrong thinking, good intentions, cost cuttings, weak communications, disparate agencies, human error and bad luck.
And what is often overlooked is that Japanese had a good plan, good training and good fortune.




Grell -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/9/2008 4:20:54 AM)

Thanks for the link Joe.

Regards,

Grell




Capt. Harlock -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/9/2008 8:32:09 PM)

quote:

The Phillipines was the concensus target. Of course, we were caught with our pants down there as well.


Yes, but that was primarily luck. If the Japanese airstrike had gone is planned it would have run into serious opposition. As it happened, the IJA planes were delayed -- just long enough for the American planes to return to base and for the radar operator to go out to lunch.




Fred98 -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/9/2008 9:09:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

It's a huge embarassment that Mitchell was so ignored until after he managed to bomb Tokyo.




That wasn't Mitchell - it was Doolittle

-





Joe D. -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/9/2008 10:00:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

It's a huge embarassment that Mitchell was so ignored until after he managed to bomb Tokyo.



That wasn't Mitchell - it was Doolittle


In Mitchell Bombers! Ironic.




timtom -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/9/2008 10:18:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ezz

Its been posted already but the massive flaw of the conspiracy theorists is that their "why" arguments are so weak.

"why" sink the Pacific fleet and damage a major naval base just before embarking on a naval war?
"why not" move the fleet to San Diego the day before and allow the attack to hit an empty port.

Pearl Harbour has been fantastically well researched. There was just the usual conspiracy of complacency,disbelief,Snafu's, wrong thinking, good intentions, cost cuttings, weak communications, disparate agencies, human error and bad luck. And what is often overlooked is that Japanese had a good plan, good training and good fortune.



Not that I necesarily disagree, but if we for a moment entertain the idea that the US government knew the details and had made the decision to let things take their course, then arguably they had no option politically but NOT to take decisive action lest the govenment lay themselves open to the charge that they had done less than everything to prevent the outbreak of war. This, after all, was the supposed bottom line of the US-Japanese negotiations up to December '41. We take the Pacific war for granted today, but prior to the event it can hardly have been a dead certainty to the American public in general and the isolationist section of same in particular. Had the fleet steamed off for San Diego on the Saturday, at the very least the US government would be shown to have negotiated in bad faith towards the end. Further, since the case would ultimately be unanswerable, the Government would hardly be able to emphatically demonstrate that war could not have been prevented had Japans bluff been called internationally and/or some other last ditch effort of mediation. Far safer to turn a blind eye and play the honest-broker-now-backstabbed, especially when there was nothing at Pearl which the US couldn't do without in the macro-strategic sense.





Jeffrey H. -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/10/2008 4:16:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

It's a huge embarassment that Mitchell was so ignored until after he managed to bomb Tokyo.




That wasn't Mitchell - it was Doolittle

-





Oh yeah, that's what I meant...oops !




06 Maestro -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/10/2008 6:31:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

It's a huge embarassment that Mitchell was so ignored until after he managed to bomb Tokyo.




That wasn't Mitchell - it was Doolittle

-





Oh yeah, that's what I meant...oops !


I was hoping you would catch that before someone else did-[:)]




Jeffrey H. -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/10/2008 7:17:26 PM)

Heh, well in my mind the association between the Doolittle raid on Tokyo, flying B-25's which are named 'Mitchell' was strong enough to blend the two meanings without much question. Getting old I guess.




06 Maestro -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/10/2008 7:35:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Heh, well in my mind the association between the Doolittle raid on Tokyo, flying B-25's which are named 'Mitchell' was strong enough to blend the two meanings without much question. Getting old I guess.

Seems like a reasonble reason for the confusion-I can buy that[:)]. Its Ironic that part of being old is to have forgotten more than what some young folks have ever learned-and then needing to be corrected by them.




wdboyd -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/10/2008 8:11:55 PM)

Deleted own message... ended up off topic. Sorry.




Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Report Debunks U.S. Heard Coded Warning re PH Attack (12/10/2008 8:38:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdboyd

Deleted own message... ended up off topic. Sorry.


Well done, sir! [:)]

PoE (aka ivanmoe)




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