Important notice - bug (Full Version)

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JanSorensen -> Important notice - bug (7/20/2008 11:56:32 PM)

tUnfortunately, it seems that the fix to the "Scouted Level Percetage" mentioned in the patch message is not working exactly the way it should be (which happens). In my PBEM game against WarHunter he brought up that it was odd that a large force of his was spotted when it should not be - which let me to run a couple of tests.

Both tests are made using the 1862 scenario with both sides human and fow off to see everything scouting Winchester from Harpers Ferry.
As it takes less than a minute literally to run each case I have no included a save.

Case A
Winchester 100% scouted during the US turn.
Some unspotted CSA units move to Winchester - no CSA attacks anywhere.
The units in Winchester remained unspotted during the USA turn (as expected)

Case B
Winchester 100% scouted during the US turn.
Some unspotted CSA units move to Winchester plus a CSA attack somewhere else on the map.
The units in Winchester are all spotted during the USA turn (very much not as as expected)

Clearly this is bugged - with the bug being that the code concerning the scouted level percetagage is applied to ALL regions not just regions where an attack is taking place as long as there is atleast one attack somewhere on the map.

In essense this means that US troops are being spotted when they should not be if the USA attacks anywhere during that turn. As the CSA very rarely attacks this should primarily concern the US player.

I posted this in public to let people know so that US players can work around it as best as possible till a fix is made.




JAMiAM -> RE: Important notice - bug (7/21/2008 1:57:26 AM)

Jan,

The program is clearly acting in an inconsistent fashion, but before the bug is "fixed" let's make sure that we all understand the intent of the scouting rules, so that it is fixed properly.

It was my impression that the scouting level is supposed to apply to a particular region, for the duration of the period from a friendly Movement Phase until the end of the next friendly combat phase (i.e., start of the next friendly Movement Phase). Since the order of the phases, as defined in the Sequence of Play, are such that the Combat Phase is before the Movement Phase, scouting levels should always bridge two distinct turns. These results should be independent of whether or not there are any combats that occur. At least this is the way the manual describes it.

The reason I mention this, is because your Case A description concerns me, as it is presently written. You say "The units in Winchester remained unspotted during the USA turn (as expected)" but in fact, according to the description of the rule, they should be spotted if they move into Winchester, during a point in time that the scouted level was 100%. Regardless of whether attacks occurred anywhere on the map, or in Winchester, in particular.

Your Case B seems to be the proper way the program should work, yet your final sentence of that case states "(very much not as as expected)". I am a bit confused now. Do you have your expectations inadvertently reversed in the cases?




hgilmer2 -> RE: Important notice - bug (7/21/2008 2:24:34 AM)

    I agree with Jamiam.  I thought if a unit was moving into a 100% scouted territory, then it at least had some chance of being spotted, the higher the percentage scouted, the higher percentage of being spotted.

I could even agree that it would be a somewhat slightly smaller percent that the moving in unit was spotted, say maybe 90% or 80% to account for a region possibly being scouted thoroughly but as they are leaving a few units sneak in behind them.




JanSorensen -> RE: Important notice - bug (7/21/2008 6:36:11 AM)

JAMiAM,

I see what you mean but consider this. If a region is ever scouted to 100% and case B is correct then ANY scouting - even just one Mounted against 20 CAV will keep the region 100% scouted.

Case:
. The Union has 2 MIL in some area which are both scouted each turn keeping the region at 100%.
. The Union sends in 20 CAV under Sheridan to make a screen.
. The Confeds scout with a single mounted seeing all units (not because the scouting mission sees anything but because they are all previously spotted) and thus the scouted level percentage remains 100%.
No matter what the Union does the CSA can keep the region fully scouted with a single unit.

Another Case:
. The Union attacks and takes Manasses. All units are spotted from the fighting.
. The CSA scouts the region with a single mounted. As all units are spotted the Scouted Level Percentage is 100%.
Again, no matter what the USA does it will remain at 100%.

A different Case:
. The Union has 50 unspotted units in a region.
. The CSA spots 25 of those making the Scouted Level Percentage 50%.
. The CSA makes no attacks - yet after the (empty) combat phase the Scouted Level Percentage is applied to all regions - meaning that each of the remaining 25 unspotted units has a 50% chance of being spotted!
I realise noone advises that this third case is correct but I believe its happening with the bug in place.

So, the rule is indeed written to (possibly) mean that the Scout Level Percetage is applied too all units all the time but that cannot be the intend as the effect would be much too large.

No, the intend as I see it has to be that units which would otherwise be able to avoid being spotted should not be able to.
This includes attacking units that march from the rear as well as reacting units. It was decided to also included units that attack even though they do so from the adjacent region as well as units defending even though they were already in place - which I disagree with from a point of logic but the effect was deemed desireable by Gary and Joel. It should not include units that are not involved in combat though - afterall the enemy has a chance during his next turn to spot those before they do any fighting.

Joel just got back from vacation so I reckon we will hear from him later today.




John Neal -> RE: Important notice - bug (7/23/2008 9:54:10 PM)

Anything happening on this one?





Joel Billings -> RE: Important notice - bug (7/23/2008 10:28:27 PM)

Yes, there has been a lot of discussion on the team about how to handle the situation. In 1.010 (and 1.00) all units were being checked against the scouted level whenever there was a reaction phase triggered. In theory, it was supposed to happen every turn (there was always some disagreement that this would be a good thing, but we didn't realize it wasn't happening). Since we never played with it working correctly, Jan has proposed a change to the rules that would limit the full SL checks to just those units moving/reacting into combat areas, with a partial check against all units that moved (other units that moved but didn't attack have 1/2 the SLP applied - attacking side units only to avoid having the SLP applied twice per turn for these units). We hope to get this into the next patch (thanks to Jan helping out with the programming). Given the way the game works now, the proposed rule changes won't have much of an impact on the way the game plays. The good news is that attacking and reacting units were always getting scouted by the scouting level, even in 1.00, so the main purpose of the Scouted Level has been working.




John Neal -> RE: Important notice - bug (7/23/2008 11:41:28 PM)

Thanks for the reply, Joel.




tran505 -> RE: Important notice - bug (7/25/2008 6:12:32 PM)


As long as you are reviewing how spotting works....

How about adding an aging factor, whereby units have a chance of becoming unspotted each turn -- say maybe 33%. If a zone is no longer being scouted for perhaps months at a time, it makes no sense for "spotting" to last forever. Intelligence has a short shelf-life. Done right, this would greatly reduce the need and effectivenss of shuffling units around for the sole purpose of removing spotting. You might also increase spotting effectiveness to compensate if you wanted. Maybe as an option?

Regards,

P




JAMiAM -> RE: Important notice - bug (7/25/2008 8:59:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tran505


As long as you are reviewing how spotting works....

How about adding an aging factor, whereby units have a chance of becoming unspotted each turn -- say maybe 33%. If a zone is no longer being scouted for perhaps months at a time, it makes no sense for "spotting" to last forever. Intelligence has a short shelf-life. Done right, this would greatly reduce the need and effectivenss of shuffling units around for the sole purpose of removing spotting. You might also increase spotting effectiveness to compensate if you wanted. Maybe as an option?

Regards,

P


This would be a great idea.




JanSorensen -> RE: Important notice - bug (7/26/2008 12:51:29 AM)

I am coding the fix atm. It will be:

Attacking units that only moved one area are not subject to the SLP (afterall they were the target of the scouting mission already)
Attacking units that moved more than one area are subject to the full SLP of the last area controlled by their own side before entering the enemy controlled area.
Attacking side units that are not attacking but have moved are subject to 1/2 the SLP of the area the end in.
Defending units that used reaction movement are subject to the full SLP of the area they moved to.
Unit that have not moved are not subject to the SLP.

Ageing could be done as well. As I recall it was considered but rejected but I dont recall the details of the debate. Joel is probably the one to answer that.




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