Combined movement - how to achieve it (Full Version)

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JanSorensen -> Combined movement - how to achieve it (5/19/2008 10:08:04 AM)

I believe most will agree that the loaned corps feature is a good deal inferior to actual combined movement. The most important reason possibly being that it means you dont get to move your own units and thus miss that part of the game.

I very much understand why its not technically possible to allow true combined movement where different players can alternate moving a few units - it would obviously create far too many mails to be sent thus slowing the game down even further.

Here is what I suggest instead:

During the diplomatic phase each MP may check which of his allies he wants to have combined movement with as well as the order in which he wants those having combined movement to move in.

At the end of the diplomatic phase the game checks which set of allied MPs have all wanted mutual combined movement and have listed the same relative movement order. Movement of all their forces is then conducted in the order of the ally moving last in each phasec (Naval and Land) with no way for France (land) or GB (naval) to move inbetween.

Two things change during combined movement.
- There is no combat phase until all the allies having combined movement have performed their movement phase.
- Allies may use each others depot to pay for supply. Each MP still pays for his own forces - but may use an allied depot from a MP joined in the combined movement to calculate the cost.

While not true combined movement I think this would be mcuh better than the loaning of units - mainly because it lets each player move his own forces! Note that the reason for letting the MPs involved set their move order is two-fold. It lets the MP that needs the most to place depots for joint use move first and in the case of less than perfect trust among allies it lets the players decide who takes the greater risk of being sold out by moving first.

The only true issue I can see is with fleets and interception combat. I am still trying to figure out the best way to handle that - suggestions are obviously welcome.





bresh -> RE: Combined movement - how to achieve it (5/19/2008 10:31:51 AM)

I do think it has been mentioned the idea, about "semi" combined movement.
Where the "nations combining" move in sequence after each other, and battlefiles await both ended the movement.

I do belive the main problem would be battles who do not involve the MP moving last(phasing player), who triggers battles.

And some rule might need to be applied for those battles, so it takes each MP in sequence who dont involve the phasing player.

I do not belive its good to jump between MPs for each battle/siege.
Each MP could be involved in other campaigns say vs minors or other MPs and therefore have wars not involving other allied MPs.

Lets say one Austria/Prussia/Russia/GB decide to move combined land, not quite uncommon.

I forgot what math to apply. thinking [N!] but not sure, sounds wrong
If its 4 MPs we do have many Army combinations.
If its 5 mps even more.
And 6 MP's  its hundreds ?


Kind Regards
Bresh




JanSorensen -> RE: Combined movement - how to achieve it (5/19/2008 11:16:04 AM)

Bresh,

I am not sure I follow you.

The MP moving last wont be the only one phasing - all the MPs in the combined movement block will be phasing. Thus I fail to see why it would be a main problem if some battles are triggered by someone other than the MP moving last in the block.

Whereever several MPs control forces on the same side in a battle one of those MP must be picked to run the battle for that side (should be done by the computer based on leaders present and/or troops present). Once thats done you run all combats the same as you would otherwise. Sure, this means that one of your allies will be deciding loses for you - but thats no worse than loaned corps.

Regarding the combinatorial issue you mention its not clear to me what you mean. Are you talking about the issue where not all major powers are at war with the opposing forces or exactly what is it that you are seeing as a problem? 




bresh -> RE: Combined movement - how to achieve it (5/19/2008 11:29:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen

Bresh,

I am not sure I follow you.

The MP moving last wont be the only one phasing - all the MPs in the combined movement block will be phasing. Thus I fail to see why it would be a main problem if some battles are triggered by someone other than the MP moving last in the block.

The phasing player is the one who decides the sequence of battles, likewise he is the one sending files.
You can not have simultanious battles in a pbm game, since all nations need to be in the same sequence of the game.


Whereever several MPs control forces on the same side in a battle one of those MP must be picked to run the battle for that side (should be done by the computer based on leaders present and/or troops present). Once thats done you run all combats the same as you would otherwise. Sure, this means that one of your allies will be deciding loses for you - but thats no worse than loaned corps.

Regarding the combinatorial issue you mention its not clear to me what you mean. Are you talking about the issue where not all major powers are at war with the opposing forces or exactly what is it that you are seeing as a problem? 
No, lets say the mentioned nations all fight France (Aus/Pr/Ru/GB).

GB might same time fight a Spanish controlled Naples, and Russia could be fighting a Turkish Georgia.
Since all battles commence after all (Aus/Pr/Ru/GB) made their land move.
Aus/Pr/Ru could have 1 joined army in the north, Austria a Au/Ru army in the middle, A Pr/Gb could be in Holland, alot of solo corps could also be involved in siege battles or fighting solo corps.

Who decides the order, when it can not be done simultanius.




Hope this helps.

Regards
Bresh




JanSorensen -> RE: Combined movement - how to achieve it (5/19/2008 11:45:52 AM)

Bresh,

I see what you mean now. If the only issue is with the order battles are concluded I find it to be a very manegeable issue though.

As far as I am concerned it could be done like this:
- First all battles where the MP moving last either has all the forces or has the controlling leader (including controlling intrinsic leader if no actual leader is present) are done.
- Second all battles where the MP moving second to last either has all the forces or has the controlling leader (including controlling intrinsic leader if no actual leader is present) are done.
... continue till all battles are done. Thus there is no combinatorial issue to adress.

That way only one MP is "phasing" at the time during the combat phase. Sure, it does not allow for maximum flexibility but you know in advance whats possible and can adjust the movement order if really needed. If you prefer it could be the MP moving first that start battles rather than the MP moving last. Either works as far as I am concerned.




Marshall Ellis -> RE: Combined movement - how to achieve it (5/19/2008 2:41:31 PM)

Hey guys:

Don't take this as a commit BUT:

What about an MP simply checking the "Allow GBR to make land moves for me" button?

I will have tons of little issues sparked from this simply becuase of ALL battle resolution which is mandated by the "CURRENT" MP i.e. If Pr allowed Gbr to make her moves then it would be difficult to force combat resolution for Pr only units in the Gbr land phase. I tried this a few years back and it was ugly. This is why we came up with loaned units.

I'm not against trying these types of things but I want you to understand that this is not a small change and I can see a few releases made here before this would become stable. I will need to see also how this could be achieved in PBEM games. Alot of variables here.

Tell me some of the shortcomings of the "loaned unit" feature that makes it not good enough?





JanSorensen -> RE: Combined movement - how to achieve it (5/19/2008 3:02:00 PM)

Marshall Ellis,

The main issue with the loaned unit feature is that you do not get to move your own forces! I cannot stress this enough. Not getting to move the units across the board at the exciting times when war is being waged rather severely diminishes the fun factor.

I have to say that I fail to understand why it should be hard for you to handle combats triggered solely by Prussian units after both Prussia and GBr has moved but I will obviously have to take your word that your code does not support such a thing without great difficulty.

To bad - I would have assumed it would have been something that could reliably be coded in a week, literally. Seeing thats not the case I dont think its worth going after till alot of other things have been done (AI, PBEM, Editor, Kingdoms, Scenarios, Bugs, UI etc).

Thanks for the reply though. If nothing else its good to know when things are not feasible.




NeverMan -> RE: Combined movement - how to achieve it (5/19/2008 3:33:01 PM)

I have no problem with the loan corps feature. If you loan a corps you better trust your ally and when you want it back, you unloan it.

Of course, true combined movement (like many other things) would be much easier to implement in Internet play.




Marshall Ellis -> RE: Combined movement - how to achieve it (5/19/2008 3:34:35 PM)

JanSorensen:

I'm not saying that it's not feasible???
I'm not even saying that I'm opposed to doing it???
I'm saying that it would NOT be easy. BIG difference!
No, it's not high on the current list but I'm not going anywhere so this could be something that we do change after we get over the hill. I appreciate your input as to the "how tos" and would ask that if you see an obvious way to implement then keep your ideas coming (IF you want).






JanSorensen -> RE: Combined movement - how to achieve it (5/19/2008 4:08:24 PM)

Marshall Ellis,

Maybe its that English isnt my native language but when you said "I tried it a few years back and it was ugly" I figure it meant it wasnt feasible in the sense that it would take a whole lot of work. Possible, yes, but not exactly something you wanted to do. If I used feasible incorrectly I am sorry.

Anyway, your reply that it wont happen till alot of other stuff is done because its too hard to easily do is good enough for me.




Marshall Ellis -> RE: Combined movement - how to achieve it (5/19/2008 4:19:40 PM)

JanSorensen:

No apologies, please. Your English is probably better than mine :-)
I try not to absolutely eliminate any ideas that come from you guys because most have good thought out solutions to implementation problems. I will also try NOT flood you guys with vacant promises of "Yes, we will" or "That's easy". If something is difficult then I'll let you know honestly.




NeverMan -> RE: Combined movement - how to achieve it (5/19/2008 5:23:24 PM)

I just wanted to repost this in the appropriate thread, so maybe people can refute/disagree this.

Jan:

Good point, well then, you could just wait until they are all (only the combined MPs, the un-combined MPs could go as they go now) done (like you said) and then go one by one.

Marshall:

Going off of the point above, the "controller" of the combined combat is then the MP who has 1) Leader present 2) Most Corps there, or if there are two leaders from two different MPs, then the leader with the most corps present. I think this is a better option than just giving the "last" guy control of all the combined battles, and I think it makes more sense. The Land Combat sequence could then follow the "combined" MPs land movement phase.




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