RE: New Stuff (Full Version)

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pamak1970 -> RE: New Stuff (3/14/2008 2:08:44 AM)

I noticed in one of the screens a button called "intelligence display mode".
Can somebody explain what is this?
Is it relative with friendly fog of war?

I have to say that i always thought that the introduction of friendly fog of war gives a total different feeling in the game and unfortunately it is something that we do not see it often.
I remember once i asked if it is possible to simulate the time lag for receiving accurate intelligence about BOTH friendly and enemy units.
For example most of the times the friendly command does not know the exact level of friendly casualties ,until after the end of the battle.Somethimes they do not even know the true location of friendly units.
During the battle the level of information is very basic to the point of describing casualties or enemy resistance as heavy or light, or reporting contact with enemy units , without giving farther information.
Sometimes the higher command does not have knowledge of the fact that small units have become actually ineffective or eliminated.
I recall reading a book about Yom kipur war where communication equipment was much better than the one used during wwii.
The brigade commander came in the battalion net asking questions about the situation during a fight in golan heights.
The battalion commander answered " general, if you continue asking questions ,soon there will be no one left to answer them".
Small unit leaders have many things to do which prohibit them from giving accurate reports about BOTH friendly and enemy units.

So returning to the game, i was thinking if it was possible to have the game engine tracking and resolving events according to the real situation in the underground ,while presenting to the player an "alternative situation" which will not provide real time information ,nor will be accurate or detailed for both friendly and enemy units.




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/14/2008 3:07:41 AM)

pamak1970,

Good point.

First off, the Intel Display Mode button that you saw is in the ScenMaker application. It is used to visualise the enemy intel reports that have been created by the scenario designer. Refer to the SM Manual for more details.

As to friendly intel, well yes it would make for a more realistic simulation. However, it would require a separate database of friendlies and enemies for each unit in the game to be comprehensively accurate. This would blow out RAM requirements and place an incredible burdon on the processor that the game would grind to a snails pace with current hardware.

At present we maintain separate databases for each side. In the future I would like to support multiuple commands per side and then have separate databases for each command. Again not perfect but a step in the right direction.




Fred98 -> RE: New Stuff (3/14/2008 4:19:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pamak1970

....most of the times the friendly command does not know the exact level of friendly casualties ,until after the end of the battle.Somethimes they do not even know the true location of friendly units.




This is not actually the case. if you have 3 battallions out there on the right wing and you, the over all comander, don't know their current state, the Brigade commander is there on the spot and he knows their state.

As wargamers we would probably make the same decision as the local commander - and then click on the units and give commands.

-










Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/14/2008 8:42:45 AM)

Another new feature added today is the ability to change the map patterns when the grund condition changes. By way of example, I have modified the Hofen Ho Down scenario. I changed the historical weather pattern so there was snow on Day 1 and Normal on Day 2. I duplicated the original map patterns and made a quick hack for the new Snow version. ( All I have done is change the lightness of the contour layers - we will have something better for the final ).

Below is a screen dump from late on Day 1 with a snow pattern.

[image]local://upfiles/8882/9D3F21A61B1C4F92A091D6C0757015FB.jpg[/image]




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/14/2008 8:43:37 AM)

At midnight the second day's historical weather comes into force and the ground condition reverts back to normal. Voila!

[image]local://upfiles/8882/AC8306AB05324D149D88891824395A6B.jpg[/image]




BigDuke66 -> RE: New Stuff (3/14/2008 2:55:29 PM)

Cool!
Do those ground conditions have an impact on the game(movement etc.)?




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/14/2008 3:00:47 PM)

Sure do.




pamak1970 -> RE: New Stuff (3/14/2008 10:33:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:

ORIGINAL: pamak1970

....most of the times the friendly command does not know the exact level of friendly casualties ,until after the end of the battle.Somethimes they do not even know the true location of friendly units.




This is not actually the case. if you have 3 battallions out there on the right wing and you, the over all comander, don't know their current state, the Brigade commander is there on the spot and he knows their state.

As wargamers we would probably make the same decision as the local commander - and then click on the units and give commands.

-










I will disagree.Even battallion commanders,although they will have a better picture of the current situation ,they will still not know the actual casualties of their companies until after the battle .

In addition my comment is relative with the attitude i see of leading the game to a more realistic command simulation at higher level.
Notice that small units become more independent, with the ability to initiate on their own various actions.
What i love in this game engine is that it was focused from the start in avoiding micromanagement , letting the player assume the higher command. As time passes the engine becomes more efficient in giving you the feeling of actually be a brigade or division commander instead of a god type player where one minute you act as a general and the next one as a major.







Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 8:39:05 AM)

Task Coordination

I am currently polishing off the user interface controls that allow a player to set the timings for an order - ie start, end, HHour and Duration. You can set the start and end for all task types. In addition, for attacks you can set the HHour which determines the start of the assault. And for Bombardments you can set a Duration that determines how long the guns will fire for.

With these controls you can now coordinate your orders. Here is an example taken from the Greyhound Dash scenario. I'm playing the Germans and I am going to coordinate a series of attack and bombardment tasks to clear the village of Samree. The time now is 09:00.

First, I give attack orders to my two infantry Bns. For each I leave the start and end on "Auto" but I set the HHour to 11:30.

[image]local://upfiles/8882/05E8D1DAD7ED48BD9E60DA7CF91D0E02.jpg[/image]




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 8:40:16 AM)

Here's the 2nd Mot Inf Bn.

[image]local://upfiles/8882/38C20EDA202C481BBD3FFEAAC3649C25.jpg[/image]




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 8:43:33 AM)

Now for my third battalion, the 1st Pz Bn, I want them to attack from the clear are east of the village. They are going to be exposed and vulnerable here, so I don't want them hanging about there too long. So I order them to start in half an hours time and give them the same HHour as the other two Bns.

[image]local://upfiles/8882/19A0E008AAFA47B589BF88F7A144C952.jpg[/image]




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 8:45:49 AM)

Finally, I want to coordinate my bombardment such that it starts 15 minutes prior to HHour and continues for another 10 minutes after it - hopefully lifting just before my assault infantry get close to the objective. Well that's the intent at least.

[image]local://upfiles/8882/AE11E86210A24874938B403003C13DAE.jpg[/image]




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 9:00:19 AM)

So let's see how it pans out.

Once I start running the game the two inf Bns start their reorgs while the 1st Pz Bn and 1st Bty wait.

[image]local://upfiles/8882/893CE0FB37FF49239DE7FF6C12357B11.jpg[/image]




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 9:01:22 AM)

Half an hour later 1st Pz Bn duly obeys orders and starts the process of moving out.

[image]local://upfiles/8882/11E56B919FD34BC2865D857DE1567A5E.jpg[/image]




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 9:07:24 AM)

At 11:15 the 1st Bty commences its bombardment.

[image]local://upfiles/8882/3217A0EEB3404ACEA22F2B1E0CA48CB3.jpg[/image]




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 9:11:15 AM)

At 11:30 the assaults get underway. Note that the arty bombardment is continuing as planned.

[image]local://upfiles/8882/3BB6A48CBBE3485DB9FAB9B8D17C9662.jpg[/image]




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 9:15:20 AM)

At 11:40 the bombardment stops. Note the lead infantry are pretty close to the objective and the enemy here is actually retreating. [:)]

[image]local://upfiles/8882/FCA68177C0D5459AA17E38C0265E94FA.jpg[/image]




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 9:18:33 AM)

In hindsight I could have brought forward the HHour by twenty minutes as the 1st Pz Bn were formed up and ready to assault a bit earlier than I thought. But with a bit more practice I'm sure I can get it down pat. [:)]

Footnote - Actually in a replay the 1st Pz Bn got pounded by enemy arty and were delayed. In the end they commenced their assault from a position south of the FUP at the designated HHour. So the lesson there is you need to allow a little leeway.




Plodder -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 10:08:50 AM)

Awesome stuff! [sm=bow.gif] One comment confused me however:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Now for my third battalion, the 1st Pz Bn, I want them to attack from the clear are east of the village. They are going to be exposed and vulnerable here, so I don't want them hanging about there too long. So I order them to start in half an hours time and give them the same HHour as the other two Bns.


Did you mean they're exposed at their current position or the one they're going to be attacking from?




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 10:54:42 AM)

The one they are going to be attacking from. I wanted to minimise their time in the open under enemy observation and fire.




Txema -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 12:32:44 PM)

Arjuna,

This new feature looks superb. I can't wait to use it !!!


Txema




Javakamp -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 4:20:11 PM)

Very nice feature. Thanks for the hard work.




FredSanford3 -> RE: New Stuff (3/18/2008 6:16:05 PM)

One question:  Is the 'end time' or 'duration' moot if you run your troops into the automatic 'Friendly Fire Preventor' zone during the assault?  This would be a gamey approach, IMO, or an argument to do away with that feature - or change it to a "Danger Close" warning with option ignore the warning.  Which could also result in some gamey tactics as well.  hmm...




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/19/2008 3:26:00 AM)

FN,

I take it you are referring to the fact that bombardments are curtailed whenever friendlies are in the way. If so, rest assured that this will continue to be the case regardless of the timings.




HercMighty -> RE: New Stuff (3/19/2008 4:47:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

FN,

I take it you are referring to the fact that bombardments are curtailed whenever friendlies are in the way. If so, rest assured that this will continue to be the case regardless of the timings.


Why?

So as it stands now really you don't have to worry about an end time for bombardments. Just do a start time and when the attack begins and friendlies move into position the bombardment will stop and your good to go.




RayWolfe -> RE: New Stuff (3/19/2008 11:58:46 AM)

A difficult call.
What would have happened IRL? In some cases, a call back to the arty to cease fire, in others, a failure in communications and you die. My feeling is that, for ground arty in 1944 communications were reasonable ... for air, poor.
You might want to see a chance of arty being stopped but I'd put the chance of failure pretty high.




Arjuna -> RE: New Stuff (3/19/2008 1:58:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HercMighty


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

FN,

I take it you are referring to the fact that bombardments are curtailed whenever friendlies are in the way. If so, rest assured that this will continue to be the case regardless of the timings.


Why?

So as it stands now really you don't have to worry about an end time for bombardments. Just do a start time and when the attack begins and friendlies move into position the bombardment will stop and your good to go.



Well you could do that if you don't mind running out of ammo real quick. The average arty unit has just 45 minutes of ammo per day. So you had better use it wisely.




JeF -> RE: New Stuff (3/19/2008 2:18:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HercMighty
So as it stands now really you don't have to worry about an end time for bombardments. Just do a start time and when the attack begins and friendlies move into position the bombardment will stop and your good to go.


What is new is the start time parameter.
Current implementation, since RDOA time, has the duration of bombardments. So we can already "exploit" the fact that we could bombard all day long a position. And we can't do it becasue, as Dave said, we don't have enough arty ammo for doing so continuously. So we must be cautious anyway. If not for friendlies (as this is automatic), for our ammo.

Cheers,

JeF.




FredSanford3 -> RE: New Stuff (3/22/2008 5:19:26 PM)

I wanted to bump this to get Arjuna's feedback on whether this approach has any validity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

A thought that occurred to me when reading that other thread referred to in post 19: Right now, you have some method when a unit disbands of transferring the remaining assets to another nearby unit. Why not do something like that when a motorized unit dismounts, but have the vehicles "disband" into either the owning HQ or base force. When the unit remounts, the vehicles "disband" from the HQ or base back to the original owner. No separate counters, just an accounting change. An appropriate "transfer delay" analogous to orders delay would account for drive time between units.

If a coy/plt size unit dismounts > vehicles go to bn HQ.
If a Bn or larger dismounts > vehicles go to base.

I believe that's not too far away from what they did IRL in many cases.

The hard part is doing a "partial disband" of select items that would be player initiated and reversible. It would also require a re-definition of a unit's movement class on the fly. I bet there's other hard parts, but just a thought...





Grell -> RE: New Stuff (3/22/2008 6:57:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

At midnight the second day's historical weather comes into force and the ground condition reverts back to normal. Voila!




That looks excellent Arjuna.

Regards,

Grell




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