Question to Joel about Artillery

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vlale
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Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by vlale »

In the readme for 1.033, in rule clarification 49, it says as I read it: When an art unit fires on the same unit, that unit wont have lowered evasion for the 2nd aka range 1 attack.

Ok, what if art fires at unit A.
Then before the art attacks unit A at range 1, unit A get attacked by another unit, lets say an inf.
Then the unit A gets attacked by the art after another unit has fired on unit A. Should the unit A, then have its evasion lowered as per normal rules?
Cuz its not working like that atm. Unit A reverts to non lowered evasion even if attacked by another unit.


Kind regards

Rasmus
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Joel Billings
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by Joel Billings »

I would have expected it to count as having been fired at before by the time the arty fires at range 1. At this time we are at the mercy of the way the code is written with regards units firing at the same unit in the same battle. Again, this was code that was added originally to ensure that torpedo attacks in conjuction with guns or bombs from the same unit would not gain an advantage. At this point I doubt an attempted fix to change the way this is working is worth the effort and potential other problems that might come from it. This will just have to be one of those fortunes of war (the fact that your arty picks the same target in both rounds).
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
batou
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by batou »

nice catch vlale
vlale
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by vlale »

Ty Batou,


Ok i can understand that Joel. Code is code. But im going to ask u to consider if the pre patch way things worked wasnt a better solution.
In my experience there are 2 countries where art matters as a land weapon and not a invasion stopper.
Thats Japan in china / possibly USSR and Russia's.
IMHO as it is now to makes art so much less effective, that it becomes close not being worth it.
Reason. Many times u need to have lowered a units defence rating im particular think attacking tanks in order to actually being able to hit it.
Since now no matter if the art has attacked that same unit, the art reverts in its 1 range attacks to the non lowered evasion makes it virtually useless against axis tanks.
This counts for both Allied nations that might encounter them.

Japan. It in my exprience uses lots of art too again the chinease player.
IMO whether the rule is as it is now or as per 1.016 it matters much less cuz the chance is that u are attacking low evasion inf or militia.
Since its almost a auto hit on the militia it doesnt really matter if it gets lowered evasion
cuz its alrdy dead with 1 hit so a hit #2 is irrelevant.

Ok so the problem that is left as i see it is that per 1.016 u could lower units evasion with the range 2 attack for other units aka tank and inf, it their range 1 attacks.
As i understand u that was not intended.

Thinking it over in my experience as a player i must say that, this problem is a lesser of 2 evils, than in practice making art worthless against tanks. No self respecting German attacking russia wont have its evasion upped to 9 possibly 10, IMHO. Aka the practice of things. Countering in the soviet art upped to land attack of 7. By the time u get it to 8, germans might very well have tank evasion at 10. Attacking in both instances at 3 lower dice, just not going to get any worthwhile hits. At 2 lower dice u had a chance.

But this is by the nature of it, just my opinion.

Kind regards,

Rasmus
vlale
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by vlale »

Edited my own post some what.

Kind regards,

Rasmus
batou
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by batou »

I agree with vlale. If it is too complicated/time consuming to change it so that things work as intended, the pre-patch solution is my preference.
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Joel Billings
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by Joel Billings »

I'm honestly a little lost regarding what the "pre-patch" solution was or exactly what was changed in 1.033 that was different than in 1.016. I'm not sure it's as easy to go back as you might think (especially since I don't immediately even know what has changed).

If I understand the problem correctly, the issue only involves an artillery unit that fires at the same unit at range 2 as at range 1. Does this happen a lot? Is there something that makes an artillery target the same unit at range 1 as at range 2? Obviously arty fires at arty first, so if there is enemy artillery to fire at, this will limit the choices (but artillery is usually very vulnerable anyway so this is obviously not the problem). If there are many targets, I'd have thought the odds of an artillery selecting the same unit at both range 1 and range 2 would be rather small (although since like types match up, there will probably be less possible targets for the arty so it depends a lot on the unit mix). I must be missing something here because this doesn't seem like that big a deal to me unless the arty is always picking the same targets at range 1 and range 2.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
vlale
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by vlale »

Joel,


Does this happen a lot? Is there something that makes an artillery target the same unit at range 1 as at range 2? Obviously arty fires at arty first, so if there is enemy artillery to fire at, this will limit the choices (but artillery is usually very vulnerable anyway so this is obviously not the problem). If there are many targets, I'd have thought the odds of an artillery selecting the same unit at both range 1 and range 2 would be rather small (although since like types match up, there will probably be less possible targets for the arty so it depends a lot on the unit mix

Following pictures of an attack included for answer. see my summation in below post.

Yes a art unit always attacks the same unit. even to the degree where if that unit has been destroyed before the art gets its 2nd attack it wont make an attack at all.

This means art never can attack at lowered evasion. (well, no-supply)

The result I see of this, is that east front and partly western front will turn into a tank only envoirment, nothing else can hit axis tanks. I know u alrdy changed the armor research, but IMHO, this arty thing is a counter step. If u remove and this is what im seeing the "other" option for the russian to hit german tanks, aka art. Thats the effect of the change. Before art could attack on lowered evasion not now. No matter.

I cant see that u can get light bombers enough and high enough attack dice, through the investment having to be done by this path is just not possible. Like wise the investment in getting soviet inf to 8 attack land value plus a bit of evasion so it can survive is just as high, if not worse ;-). At leased before u could have Inf as soak off and art as the killer.

Only 1 out of all the unit will work. Thats kinda sad and make for boring repetetive games. If nothing can bite german tanks other than russian tank. The german will only build tanks and the russian will have to follow.

kind regards,

Rasmus
vlale
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by vlale »

Pic 1

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vlale
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

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pic 2

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vlale
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

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pic 3

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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

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pic 4

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vlale
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by vlale »

Ger Art 256 attacks, unit 554 both times, 2nd attack at not lowered dice bug, ok cuz no other unit has attacked unit 554 before the arts 2nd attack

-------- 257 --------, unit 557 both times unit 557 2nd attack not at lowered evasion tho, unit 557 has been attacked by unit 3 before 2nd art attack

-------- 255 --------, unit 556 once cuz unit 556 has been destroyed before the art gets 2nd attack and it doesnt attack another target tho eligeble targets excists

-------- 338 --------, unit 555 both times unit 555 2nd attack not at lowered evasion tho, unit 557 has been attacked by unit 1273 before 2nd art attack

Btw this IMO isnt a fluke, targeting has worked like that for all i have noticed since i got the game.

kind regards,

Rasmus
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Joel Billings
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by Joel Billings »

Ok, we'll take a look at this and see if there is something easy that can be done to improve the situation for the next patch (or the one after Online play is added).
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
vlale
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by vlale »

Thank you Joel,


Kind regards,

Rasmus
vlale
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RE: Question to Joel about Artillery

Post by vlale »

Oh just one more thing Joel,


To make sure u dont make any unnecesary work, since u all hard at work on other importand projects, like the russian front game and GGCivilWar [:)]

While targeting might not all random, if changes u will make, if any are possible, doesnt end up with art getting lowered evasion in its 2nd attack on units hit by other units, changes arent importand IMO. Your of course welcoem to disagree. My beef isnt with targting per say, but with the lack of lowered evasion for art on 2nd attacks. Cuz of in above post metioned reasons.

Kind regards, Mr. long winded butt-in[:D]

Rasmus
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