Paratroopers

Warplan is a World War 2 simulation engine. It is a balance of realism and playability incorporating the best from 50 years of World War 2 board wargaming.

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stjeand
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Paratroopers

Post by stjeand »

While I do not mind the supply truck changes...this has caused some sort of huge issue for me with paratroopers.


I am playing a game against Harrybanana...

I have a paratrooper that has been sitting in Russia, which he has seen. It has been on a rail line for the entire year of 1943...
From time to time I move it 2 or 3 hexes to keep up with the moving front lines...but many times it sits waiting for its chance to shine.

For the entire year of 1943 its effectiveness NEVER got to 96% so that I could use it.

It would be at 90% turn 1...then 92% turn 2...then 94% turn 3...I would move it closer to the front line as it is moving down to 91%...then it would be 93% the next turn.

1) It was always on a rail line.
2) It was within range of an HQ


HOW can this be addressed?

I understand the change where if a unit is at 90%+ they get less effectiveness back but something has to change at least for paratroopers.

I spent a year waiting to use the unit and never could. I guess I could keep dumping supply trucks on it turn after turn to push it up over but clearly that is not what should be expected. IF a unit is on a rail line and next to an HQ it should not gain 2 effectiveness per turn...it should be higher...base is 18 + 4 for HQ...so 22...but ending up with 2.

Help me Alvaro-Wan Kasousa...you are my only hope.
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AlvaroSousa
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by AlvaroSousa »

I can tell you how I use them.

I wait for the summer offensive and have them ready behind the line. They have a pretty good range to drop. I truck them up and tada ready.
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stjeand
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by stjeand »

I wait for the summer offensive and have them ready behind the line. They have a pretty good range to drop. I truck them up and tada ready.

So just to be clear...I have to spend multiple supply trucks to make them work?

Used to be so much easier and cheaper.
Nirosi
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by Nirosi »

18 + 4 for HQ...so 22

Yes but the formula is (1-x) etc. So the 22 here is if readiness is at... 0%. Half of that if at 50% (11) and 10% of that if unit already at 90% readiness. To that you might get an up to 2% bonus for logistics.

In other word the max from the formula is only for readiness 0% and goes down proportionally for each extra readiness percentage.
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stjeand
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by stjeand »

10% seems excessive...As does 50%...takes forever to get ready.

Thought it was more random but guess not.

This is where things do not work in the above...

It is better to be at 49% effectiveness than 50%...you will get back twice the effectiveness.

Needs tweaking...else NOW I have to heavily micromanage.

I have a panzer at 58%...I need to move it.
Normally I would move it as little as possible because it is going to a rail line...BUT knowing that if I move it 9 I get to 49% and will get back 18% effectiveness or I can move it 3 to get on the rail line and only get back 9%...well that is a no brainer.

Better to mod the value so instead of dropping to 50% you drop 10% per level...

If you Effectiveness is 10%-20% you get 100%
20%-30% you get 90% and so on.

Knowing what I know above now...I have to micromanage.
Nirosi
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by Nirosi »

It is better to be at 49% effectiveness than 50%...you will get back twice the effectiveness.

Not sure I understand, the difference should be minimal between been at 49% vs 50%. Probably 0.

Lets says the calculation (base + map level + HQ) brings at total of 30. A unit already at 49% would get 51% of that, so 15.3. While a unit at 50% would get 50% of that, so 15. So probably both 15 I guess depending how the rounding is done. They both might get a logistic bonus up to an extra 2% plus maybe 4% from a truck.

But I agree that once in the 90% or so, its gets hard to increase it. Even a small boost at these levels would help. Or just allowing drops at 95%+?
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stjeand
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by stjeand »

I read it wrong...had to go through the manual now it makes sense.

I am not a fan of 2% in the 90%...that means you need over 2 months of sitting to get to 100%...seems a bit much.

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stjeand
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by stjeand »

And just read...

Base of 6% per turn.
Add 2% per supply level, say 18% if on a rail line
4% for HQ...

SO effectiveness recovery is 28% X (100 - current effectiveness)
Nirosi
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by Nirosi »

SO effectiveness recovery is 28% X (100 - current effectiveness)

Oups my example with 30 was bad since 28 seems the max! Mea culpa.
aoffen
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by aoffen »

Para’s are a bit funny in this game system. Other that the fact you usually need 2 or 3 trucks to get them to 100% effectiveness, they can only drop into an empty hex. This makes for odd situations. You can’t drop them on the enemy but have to go next to the enemy if there is room. I still find them quite useful, but the inability to drop on crucial hexes if they have any garrison is a bit unusual and feels gamey. Not sure there is any solution as it is a function of the stacking system and game engine mechanics. It would be nice to be able to drop on an enemy unit for a combat modifier though.
aoffen
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by aoffen »

I am thinking specifically of the example of Malta btw. As it is a single hex island, you can’t drop paras on Malta at all if there is just 1 step there. An amphibious landing with para support also impossible. It would be nice to get that system changed to something more realistic.
boldairade
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by boldairade »

if you've ever studied the logistics of setting up a massed airdrop, they were fairly intensive. between the number of planes, fuel, getting all the formations in position, gliders, training etc it was a logistical nightmare. years ago i found this subject pretty interesting, and took a deep dive on it. one really, when you study it, has to question if they were ever worth it in the first place.

so to me, the fact that they take considerable planning and opportunity cost makes a lot of sense. i personally thought the the way paras were before they were nerfed was kind of off putting to me, as they were far too easy to use, and way too effective once they dropped. at this point i think AS has it just about right.

this is of course only my opinion. and i think in terms of fun, it can be debated if this makes the game more or less fun. for me, i really value realism. so i like the current iteration of things.
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stjeand
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by stjeand »

While I agree...sitting in place for 2 months should ALWAYS be enough time if they start with efficiency in the 80% range.
Instead you have to dump supply trucks on them or they must not move for 4 to 6 months, which is not possible with a moving front.

It is fine...I just did not fully grasp how badly they were affected with the supply truck and efficiency changes.
I can remember using them once maybe twice a year..with one/two sets of trucks. Now have to use 3 or 4 times that to get a single use out of them per year.


Even after 9 months playing still learning new things...which is good...but also bad.
boldairade
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by boldairade »

while i can't say i've had this problem, i must mention that i've only done one air drop since the changing of things, and i'm also destructively reckless in spending my own trucks.

stejand, you are not only a better player than i, but much more in tune with the game systems.

so unless you are just being stingy with supply trucks, you are probably right that something might be tweaked.

it would seem the easiest thing, without having to impact any major game mechanics, might be just to lower the threshold for para drops to 96%(a number i picked out of my arse, so perhaps there is a better one)
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AlvaroSousa
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by AlvaroSousa »

I'll take a look.
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Harrybanana
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by Harrybanana »

Personally I like the Rules as they are as they force the Player that wants to use paratroopers to do some advance planning. Paratroopers put onto a rail line will recover effectiveness to at least level 86% within a few turns. If I decide that I want to use a particular paratrooper in two turns (T3) and it is at 86% I will expend a supply truck on it to increase effectiveness to 90%. On the following turn (T2) its effectiveness will probably be at about 92%. So I will again expend supply trucks on it increasing its effectiveness to 96%. On the next turn (T3) its effectiveness will probably be at 98%. So I will again expend supply trucks to increase its effectiveness to 102% so I can drop it. In total I might expend 6 supply trucks over 3 turns at a cost of 18 PPs, no big deal. Stjeand is correct that it is possible that the enemy might retreat or other events will happen that might foil my planning. But that is OK too as historically several planned paradrops were scrubbed because friendly ground troops overran the drop zones.

One of the problems with the game is that invasions and paradrops are often very opportunistic. "Oh look, my UK opponent forgot to garrison Liverpool this turn. Great I will invade right away with my panzer corps." Or "I will just send out a unit on a transport into the middle of the Mediterranean and invade whichever port my Axis opponent is unable to get a unit into" (this is what I did in my AAR with Stjeand). Historically this was just not possible. Even if the Germans, in my example, knew that Liverpool was unguarded, it would take them several weeks to plan an assault by a full armour corps and even longer to get the necessary landing craft gathered up. It is the same with paradrops. Even if I plan on making a paradrop I probably don't know exactly where I am going to use it until the actual turn of use. This is why I like the system in War in the West which requires a player to select his invasion sites and drop hexes turns in advance.
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stjeand
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by stjeand »

After consideration I agree with Harry on the paratroopers...though a big difference between paratroopers and invasions...
Paratroopers are specifically trained for their job. So their setup should be must less than training an infantry corps that may have never seen a boat how to land.

Invasions are FAR to simple and require 0 training.

Perhaps they need efficiency restrictions too...though not 100%...

The biggest issue I have with them is armor. It is not possible to invade with an armored corps but it seems to be required or landings do not go well.
It is not even possible to invade with an armored division...but it is as it is and seems that it has to be or invasions would fail on the turn of the landing for the most part.


Not sure how that could be addressed.

Thoughts...when they land they take heavy damage. D-Day the US tried to land 120 tanks...more than 30% sank.
Once they secured the beach they were able to land 100+ more, but they were in no way concentrated into a corp. They were spread out in an infantry support role.

Perhaps when LC are built...you can use them to create a Amphibious invasion specialty on a unit.
That unit must not have moved to receive this add.
Then it can not move for the current turn.
Next turn it can invade.
This would mean a unit must sit for a month before an invasion. Since paratroopers that a trained to do what they do have to sit for more time than that...this makes a bit more sense.
If it moves is losses the training which returns to the pool.
And maybe this is something for WP2.
canuckgamer
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by canuckgamer »

I agree that invasions and to a lesser degree paradrops are too easy in this game. Historically, invasions took months of planning, resources and organization.The Allies even with all their resources were only able to mount two major paradrops, D-Day and Market Garden. In regards to armour invading I justify it by the fact that each turn is a two week period so I believe there were armour formations in Normandy within two weeks of the D-Day. WarPlan is a strategic level game with operational level tactics.

Harry, I think your comments about "opportunistic" invasions is a good point and is a result of the lack of FOW in this game. I think that WarPlan is a cross between a boardgame where you see the location of every enemy unit on the map as opposed to 100% FOW where you don't see the locations of enemy units that are not adjacent to friendly ones. Although a game like SCWIE has complete FOW I disliked how bumping in to an enemy unit when moving always resulted in your unit suffering heavy casualties.

Regardless, my friend and I are having a hoot playing this game by PBEM.
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stjeand
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RE: Paratroopers

Post by stjeand »

I think if FOW is added...that may change a LOT...

In WPP the naval FOW is nice...I know some have said they don't want it for land units but come on...the Germans should be fully unaware of how many corps are in the US as they should be clueless as to what Germany looks like.

NOW if they were bombing...then maybe you get recon.
And when you bump into the enemy you may surprise them so you may hammer them as they are not aware you were on your way either.

But these are all things for the future.
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