Fair Theft?

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golden delicious
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RE: Permissions & Orphans

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

I think there is agreement that it is proper to first receive the author’s permission before posting a modified scenario. But what about scenarios that have been orphaned? If a legitimate search for the original author does not yield a result, I for one have no problem with posting a modified scenario. Proper acknowledgement of the original author’s work is of course required.

Yes I think if the designer is uncontactable and proper acknowledgement is given then this has to be considered abandonware. The only consideration is if the designer subsequently shows up they have the right to ask you to take your version down (though in practice this is not likely). The question of what constitutes a "legitimate search" would be up to individual consciences; as most designers include an email address in the briefing that's at least a place to start.

There's another matter here which is posting unaltered scenarios without the designer's consent, where the scenario may have been shared privately without actually being published. For example, I note there's an outdated version of Fall Grau available on at least one site.
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Hellen_slith
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RE: Permissions & Orphans

Post by Hellen_slith »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

I think there is agreement that it is proper to first receive the author’s permission before posting a modified scenario. But what about scenarios that have been orphaned? If a legitimate search for the original author does not yield a result, I for one have no problem with posting a modified scenario. Proper acknowledgement of the original author’s work is of course required.

Yes I think if the designer is uncontactable and proper acknowledgement is given then this has to be considered abandonware. The only consideration is if the designer subsequently shows up

>>>>they have the right to ask you to take your version down (though in practice this is not likely<<<<<.

The question of what constitutes a "legitimate search" would be up to individual consciences; as most designers include an email address in the briefing that's at least a place to start.

There's another matter here which is posting unaltered scenarios without the designer's consent, where the scenario may have been shared privately without actually being published. For example, I note there's an outdated version of Fall Grau available on at least one site.

Correct. They *do* have that right to ask you to take a modified version down, or to ask that you not distribute the modified version.

And one would be within one's OWN right to decline that request, because one has a RIGHT to use their work under the Fair Use doctrine.

Fair Use: not kid stuff.
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RE: Permissions & Orphans

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

I think there is agreement that it is proper to first receive the author’s permission before posting a modified scenario. But what about scenarios that have been orphaned? If a legitimate search for the original author does not yield a result, I for one have no problem with posting a modified scenario. Proper acknowledgement of the original author’s work is of course required.

Yes I think if the designer is uncontactable and proper acknowledgement is given then this has to be considered abandonware. The only consideration is if the designer subsequently shows up

>>>>they have the right to ask you to take your version down (though in practice this is not likely<<<<<.

The question of what constitutes a "legitimate search" would be up to individual consciences; as most designers include an email address in the briefing that's at least a place to start.

There's another matter here which is posting unaltered scenarios without the designer's consent, where the scenario may have been shared privately without actually being published. For example, I note there's an outdated version of Fall Grau available on at least one site.

Correct. They *do* have that right to ask you to take a modified version down, or to ask that you not distribute the modified version.

And one would be within one's OWN right to decline that request, because one has a RIGHT to use their work under the Fair Use doctrine.

Fair Use: not kid stuff.

There you go again with that fair use mumbo jumbo. No one cares about fair use except you. Right and wrong is the issue. Who would take someone's work, change it up and then put it out there without caring about the person who took all the effort to do the hard work. What kind of person does that or even thinks about doing that?

I asked the guys who made FitE1 and 2 if I could use the map they made for FitE1. They said no. Fine. I made my own. That's the right way to do it. You on the other hand would evidently say screw you I'm using it anyway.

Oh, and then you would brag about an AAR. [:D]

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golden delicious
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RE: Permissions & Orphans

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith


Correct. They *do* have that right to ask you to take a modified version down, or to ask that you not distribute the modified version.

And one would be within one's OWN right to decline that request, because one has a RIGHT to use their work under the Fair Use doctrine.

Fair Use: not kid stuff.

Fair use is intended to protect using portions of a work for personal, academic and review purposes, not for wholesale copy/pasting. For example, I included a screenshot of Brian Topp's France 1940 in my dissertation: that's fair use. I include screenshots in my AARs: that's fair use.

Uploading the whole scenario without at least attempting to get the permission of the author: not fair use.
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gliz2
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RE: Permissions & Orphans

Post by gliz2 »

I think this gone beyond reasonable.

Literally if a Matrix would say they do not want you to post the scenarios made with editor how much legal value would it held?
None.
They could only limit the commercial use.

And the same goes for a user. You want your scenario to be "limited" then ask Matrix to include it in the game. Otherwise do not post it as anyone has the right to modify the way they like it and repost it (giving you the credit).
It is simple as that.

Seems like some of you are forgetting that amending a scenario also requires (some work).
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RE: Permissions & Orphans

Post by sPzAbt653 »

what constitutes a "legitimate search"
May I suggest:
1. Contact thru the method the author put in the Scenario Briefing [usually an e-mail address].
2. Post a thread here discussing possible modifications to the scenario and ask if anyone knows how to contact the author.
3. Web Search for the Author.
4. Wait 31 days. If no contact from the author, consider the scenario abandoned and proceed as you wish. I understand that some may disagree with this part and would rather leave a scenario alone if the author cannot be contacted, but that would possibly leave some scenarios buried, never to be seen again, which would probably be a shame.

Consider that some scenario designers have passed away, and a few others don't care about TOAW anymore.
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RE: Permissions & Orphans

Post by cathar1244 »

I was browsing a user guide for one of McBride's scenarios, and when I saw this comment of his, this thread sprung immediately to mind. [:D]
I have not asked Pentland’s permission to add his painting here but assume he would not mind, as this is a non-profit work on my part.

Cheers
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RE: Permissions & Orphans

Post by r6kunz »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
what constitutes a "legitimate search"?
May I suggest:
1. Contact thru the method the author put in the Scenario Briefing [usually an e-mail address].
2. Post a thread here discussing possible modifications to the scenario and ask if anyone knows how to contact the author.
3. Web Search for the Author.
4. Wait 31 days. If no contact from the author, consider the scenario abandoned and proceed as you wish. I understand that some may disagree with this part and would rather leave a scenario alone if the author cannot be contacted, but that would possibly leave some scenarios buried, never to be seen again, which would probably be a shame.

Consider that some scenario designers have passed away, and a few others don't care about TOAW anymore.
Steve, I agree those four items should constitute due diligence to find the original author. I would add that the modified scenario should contain an acknowledgment to the original author.

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RE: Permissions & Orphans

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

I was browsing a user guide for one of McBride's scenarios, and when I saw this comment of his, this thread sprung immediately to mind. [:D]
I have not asked Pentland’s permission to add his painting here but assume he would not mind, as this is a non-profit work on my part.

Cheers

That's pretty funny. I wanted to use one of West Point's excellent campaign maps as the cover image for my BA dissertation, and I made sure to ask West Point's permission before doing it.

Why would you "assume" without even asking? Fine if you ask and get no reply but....
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Graymane
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Re: Fair Theft?

Post by Graymane »

Well, at the risk of necroing an old thread, I just couldn't resist. I have to worry about these issues in my daily job, so here are some of my notes that I've gleaned over the years. This mainly applies to US law, but it isn't vastly different from Europe and other countries. My intention isn't really to say "don't republish old scenarios" because I don't think anyone is going to come after you, but I just want to maybe shed some light on some of the things being claimed as regards copyright law and what the rights are of original scenario authors.

Copyright: Protects the expressions of an idea, not the idea itself. That means it is a tangible work. A scenario for a game fits that definition.

Copyright Owner: The author is the first owner of copyright. The copyright owner holds exclusive rights to prevent unauthorized use, making, selling, or distributing copies of the work. Think of a scenario like a book. You can use a book however you want for your own personal use. Modifying (perfectly ok for your own use) and republishing (not ok) a scenario is not personal use.

Fair Use (Fair Dealings): Fair Use covers a couple of broad categories: First is educational use of a SMALL portion of the entire work. Think of Youtube and using around 6 seconds of a song to teach something. Second covers commentary, criticism, or parody (none of these really cover the uses being discussed).

The small window and stretch of Fair Use is if you can't find the original author covered under "orphaned works" below. Given that no one is likely to come after you, it is a reasonable claim. Note that if they have directly said "no" or "take it down" in the past, you can't use this.

I believe another interesting case of Fair Use would be to update the format of scenario, say an ACOW or TOAW III scenario to work with TOAW IV. I believe those uses ARE covered by fair use under changes of format.

But Can I Do It Anyway? Authors are NOT required to register a copyright, it is automatic as soon as the scenario was created (publishing isn't even required). They don't have to do anything at all to receive protection. All the work for receiving permission is on you unless they've provided you a license. Publishing a scenario that you based on someone else's work without their express permission violates copyright law. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Crediting the original author doesn't get you out of the violation either.

Now, not to be overly pedantic, but the chance of someone actually coming after you is slim to none given that we are talking about a game that relatively few people play and no one charges anything for these scenarios. Now, if an original scenario author DOES ask you to not republish a work based on theirs, they are perfectly within their rights to do so and you should take it down.

What If I Can't Find the Scenario Owner? This is something called an orphaned work. Silence is not "Yes, you can use it". If you have done a reasonably exhaustive search (posted on various message boards people that play these games would frequent, asked people you know for more info, etc) and can't find the author then see above about Fair Use.

How Can I Make Scenario Sharing Easier? When you publish your scenario, add a Grant of Copy Lic. somewhere in the description. There are lots of versions out there on the internet, but you basically want to say: "I grant you the right to reproduce or prepare derivate scenarios and republish to the TOAW community. You must also credit the original authors in your derived work". If you, as an author, simply do that, most problems are solved.
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Re: Fair Theft?

Post by rhinobones »

Graymane wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:56 pm Well, at the risk of necroing an old thread . . .
Very interesting. How does Public Domain enter into this conversation?

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Post by broccolini » Sun Nov 06, 2022
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Re: Fair Theft?

Post by Graymane »

rhinobones wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:56 pm
Graymane wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:56 pm Well, at the risk of necroing an old thread . . .
Very interesting. How does Public Domain enter into this conversation?

Regards
Restricting our conversation to TOAW Scenarios, you, as the original author, would place it there by a statement somewhere in the scenario description. That is the ONLY way unless we are all playing this game 70+ years from the year of the author's death (assuming US law) :P. At that time, works automatically move to the public domain.

Something like "Public Domain" or "Released to the Public Domain" in the description should do the trick.

Also, I should note that releasing your work to the Public Domain is the other alternative to my recommendation above where you do retain all your rights but allow others to modify and repub your work. Releasing to the Public Domain means anyone can do anything to it.
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Re: Fair Theft?

Post by MultiPurposeCanine »

find these mod and scen makers that get their pants wet over this kinda strange and negative

one of the major reasons why mods and scenarios end up forever forgotten in abyss is this pedantic guys, and then NOBODY gives a wooden nickel about your creation, good job!

coolest mod and scen makers are these that say outright use my work (state it and give credit), the others should learn from these individuals and man up. You are not novel writers that earn their existance with that stuff so relax. the guys that want to republish your making because they like what you did and want to give it props while you only cry and complain
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Re: Fair Theft?

Post by golden delicious »

MultiPurposeCanine wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:39 pm find these mod and scen makers that get their pants wet over this kinda strange and negative

one of the major reasons why mods and scenarios end up forever forgotten in abyss is this pedantic guys, and then NOBODY gives a wooden nickel about your creation, good job!

coolest mod and scen makers are these that say outright use my work (state it and give credit), the others should learn from these individuals and man up. You are not novel writers that earn their existance with that stuff so relax. the guys that want to republish your making because they like what you did and want to give it props while you only cry and complain
It's striking to go from a professional's carefully considered opinion on legality to this bizarre rant.

Let's suppose you design a scenario. A serious TOAW scenario is the product of hundreds or even thousands of hours of work. No, I'm never going to make any money from TOAW. So what? I still care about the product of my hard work.

Even if we exclude all the possible misuse that can be made of that work, it's just common courtesy to ask before taking something that isn't yours.
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Re: Fair Theft?

Post by Zovs »

golden delicious wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:54 pm
MultiPurposeCanine wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:39 pm find these mod and scen makers that get their pants wet over this kinda strange and negative

one of the major reasons why mods and scenarios end up forever forgotten in abyss is this pedantic guys, and then NOBODY gives a wooden nickel about your creation, good job!

coolest mod and scen makers are these that say outright use my work (state it and give credit), the others should learn from these individuals and man up. You are not novel writers that earn their existance with that stuff so relax. the guys that want to republish your making because they like what you did and want to give it props while you only cry and complain
It's striking to go from a professional's carefully considered opinion on legality to this bizarre rant.

Let's suppose you design a scenario. A serious TOAW scenario is the product of hundreds or even thousands of hours of work. You put your name on it, you publish it, but TOAW being what it is it gets a total of 9 downloads- ever.

Years pass and things which should not have been forgotten are lost. You've implied above you expect credit to be given, so we'll ignore the possibility of a complete rip of. There is however the possibility that someone publishes a really bastardised version of your scenario and accords you full credit, making you look like a moron

Do you think this is a fair and reasonable outcome for the original designer for all their efforts?
I don’t think it works quite like that, I know for the scenarios I have updated and modified I have given the original author for his original creation and I have put my notes in as my 1000s of hours of modifying the original and bearing any responsibility for the changes and modifications to the original. Now it has become “mine” from all the work I put into modifications of the original. Board war game companies do this all the time, case in point SPI games updated and converted to DG or Compass Games.
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golden delicious
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Re: Fair Theft?

Post by golden delicious »

Zovs wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:33 pm
I don’t think it works quite like that, I know for the scenarios I have updated and modified I have given the original author for his original creation and I have put my notes in as my 1000s of hours of modifying the original and bearing any responsibility for the changes and modifications to the original. Now it has become “mine” from all the work I put into modifications of the original. Board war game companies do this all the time, case in point SPI games updated and converted to DG or Compass Games.
I edited my post between when you started writing your response and when you posted it, it seems.

Anyway, the existence of well-meaning scenario-updaters such as yourself does not preclude the existence of other people who may not be so well-behaved.

And- as I added to my original post- it's just common courtesy to ask. How do you know what someone else would approve of you doing or not unless you ask?
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golden delicious
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Re: Fair Theft?

Post by golden delicious »

Here's another one for you.

I put out a scenario years back- Leros 43- which I would consider a junk scenario. I asked for it to be excluded from TOAW IV because I find it embarrassing.

Now suppose some bright spark found a COW version of the scenario and updated it and published it for IV, without asking?
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Graymane
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Re: Fair Theft?

Post by Graymane »

golden delicious wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:03 pm Here's another one for you.

I put out a scenario years back- Leros 43- which I would consider a junk scenario. I asked for it to be excluded from TOAW IV because I find it embarrassing.

Now suppose some bright spark found a COW version of the scenario and updated it and published it for IV, without asking?
\
Ah..the famous "don't use my work because it sucks defense" :P Everything in my post above applies. You are the copyright owner and can say that. On the other hand, there is the Fair Use thing from above as well in you ever leave the forums and can't be contacted. There is also a grey area of Fair Use for gaming upgrades. I admit I have no idea what would happen. If you have an old version of a game and upgrade, does upgrading the scenarios to use them in the new game count?
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