"Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

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"Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by Rusty1961 »

My bet is on the TBF and friendly fire...

Confusion and complications endangered the success of the mission. The Hellcats first had trouble finding the Avenger, the FDO had difficulty guiding any of them on the targets. O'Hare and Ensign W. Skon in their F6F Hellcats finally got into position behind the Avenger. Butch O'Hare had been well aware of the deadly danger of friendly fire in this situation – he radioed to the Avenger Pilot of his section, "Hey, Phil, turn those running lights on. I want to be sure it's a yellow devil I'm drilling."[38]

O'Hare was last seen at the 5 o'clock position of the TBF. About that time, the turret gunner of the TBF, Alvin Kernan (AOM1/c) noticed a Japanese G4M Betty bomber above and almost directly behind O'Hare's 6 o'clock position.[39] Kernan opened fire with the TBF's .50-cal. machine gun in the dorsal turret and a Japanese gunner fired back. Butch O'Hare's F6F Hellcat apparently was caught in a crossfire. Seconds later Butch's F6F slid out of formation to port, pushing slightly ahead at about 160 knots and then vanished in the dark. The Avenger pilot, Lieutenant Commander Phillips, called repeatedly to O'Hare but received no reply. Ensign Skon responded:[40] "Mr Phillips, this is Skon. I saw Mr O'Hare's lights go out and, at the same instant, he seemed to veer off and slant down into darkness." Phillips later asserted, as the Hellcat dropped out of view, it seemed to release something that fell almost vertically at a speed too slow for anything but a parachute. Then something "whitish-gray" appeared below, perhaps the splash of the aircraft plunging into the sea.



So given the lethality of a .50 (twin?) vs a single 7.7mm I say it was friendly fire.

Thus begs the question: In your games what is the greatest number of kills made by the 7.7mm or have you had games where zero kills were made?
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

My bet is on the TBF and friendly fire...

Confusion and complications endangered the success of the mission. The Hellcats first had trouble finding the Avenger, the FDO had difficulty guiding any of them on the targets. O'Hare and Ensign W. Skon in their F6F Hellcats finally got into position behind the Avenger. Butch O'Hare had been well aware of the deadly danger of friendly fire in this situation – he radioed to the Avenger Pilot of his section, "Hey, Phil, turn those running lights on. I want to be sure it's a yellow devil I'm drilling."[38]

O'Hare was last seen at the 5 o'clock position of the TBF. About that time, the turret gunner of the TBF, Alvin Kernan (AOM1/c) noticed a Japanese G4M Betty bomber above and almost directly behind O'Hare's 6 o'clock position.[39] Kernan opened fire with the TBF's .50-cal. machine gun in the dorsal turret and a Japanese gunner fired back. Butch O'Hare's F6F Hellcat apparently was caught in a crossfire. Seconds later Butch's F6F slid out of formation to port, pushing slightly ahead at about 160 knots and then vanished in the dark. The Avenger pilot, Lieutenant Commander Phillips, called repeatedly to O'Hare but received no reply. Ensign Skon responded:[40] "Mr Phillips, this is Skon. I saw Mr O'Hare's lights go out and, at the same instant, he seemed to veer off and slant down into darkness." Phillips later asserted, as the Hellcat dropped out of view, it seemed to release something that fell almost vertically at a speed too slow for anything but a parachute. Then something "whitish-gray" appeared below, perhaps the splash of the aircraft plunging into the sea.



So given the lethality of a .50 (twin?) vs a single 7.7mm I say it was friendly fire.

Thus begs the question: In your games what is the greatest number of kills made by the 7.7mm or have you had games where zero kills were made?

I bet that if a bullet fired from either weapon hit you in the head, you would not care which one it was.

It has already been shown that it was not friendly fire that brought down O'Hare.

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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by Rusty1961 »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

My bet is on the TBF and friendly fire...

Confusion and complications endangered the success of the mission. The Hellcats first had trouble finding the Avenger, the FDO had difficulty guiding any of them on the targets. O'Hare and Ensign W. Skon in their F6F Hellcats finally got into position behind the Avenger. Butch O'Hare had been well aware of the deadly danger of friendly fire in this situation – he radioed to the Avenger Pilot of his section, "Hey, Phil, turn those running lights on. I want to be sure it's a yellow devil I'm drilling."[38]

O'Hare was last seen at the 5 o'clock position of the TBF. About that time, the turret gunner of the TBF, Alvin Kernan (AOM1/c) noticed a Japanese G4M Betty bomber above and almost directly behind O'Hare's 6 o'clock position.[39] Kernan opened fire with the TBF's .50-cal. machine gun in the dorsal turret and a Japanese gunner fired back. Butch O'Hare's F6F Hellcat apparently was caught in a crossfire. Seconds later Butch's F6F slid out of formation to port, pushing slightly ahead at about 160 knots and then vanished in the dark. The Avenger pilot, Lieutenant Commander Phillips, called repeatedly to O'Hare but received no reply. Ensign Skon responded:[40] "Mr Phillips, this is Skon. I saw Mr O'Hare's lights go out and, at the same instant, he seemed to veer off and slant down into darkness." Phillips later asserted, as the Hellcat dropped out of view, it seemed to release something that fell almost vertically at a speed too slow for anything but a parachute. Then something "whitish-gray" appeared below, perhaps the splash of the aircraft plunging into the sea.



So given the lethality of a .50 (twin?) vs a single 7.7mm I say it was friendly fire.

Thus begs the question: In your games what is the greatest number of kills made by the 7.7mm or have you had games where zero kills were made?

I bet that if a bullet fired from either weapon hit you in the head, you would not care which one it was.

It has already been shown that it was not friendly fire that brought down O'Hare.

Hagel zum Frauleins!


I'm curious, how did they prove it?
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

My bet is on the TBF and friendly fire...

Confusion and complications endangered the success of the mission. The Hellcats first had trouble finding the Avenger, the FDO had difficulty guiding any of them on the targets. O'Hare and Ensign W. Skon in their F6F Hellcats finally got into position behind the Avenger. Butch O'Hare had been well aware of the deadly danger of friendly fire in this situation – he radioed to the Avenger Pilot of his section, "Hey, Phil, turn those running lights on. I want to be sure it's a yellow devil I'm drilling."[38]

O'Hare was last seen at the 5 o'clock position of the TBF. About that time, the turret gunner of the TBF, Alvin Kernan (AOM1/c) noticed a Japanese G4M Betty bomber above and almost directly behind O'Hare's 6 o'clock position.[39] Kernan opened fire with the TBF's .50-cal. machine gun in the dorsal turret and a Japanese gunner fired back. Butch O'Hare's F6F Hellcat apparently was caught in a crossfire. Seconds later Butch's F6F slid out of formation to port, pushing slightly ahead at about 160 knots and then vanished in the dark. The Avenger pilot, Lieutenant Commander Phillips, called repeatedly to O'Hare but received no reply. Ensign Skon responded:[40] "Mr Phillips, this is Skon. I saw Mr O'Hare's lights go out and, at the same instant, he seemed to veer off and slant down into darkness." Phillips later asserted, as the Hellcat dropped out of view, it seemed to release something that fell almost vertically at a speed too slow for anything but a parachute. Then something "whitish-gray" appeared below, perhaps the splash of the aircraft plunging into the sea.



So given the lethality of a .50 (twin?) vs a single 7.7mm I say it was friendly fire.

Thus begs the question: In your games what is the greatest number of kills made by the 7.7mm or have you had games where zero kills were made?

I bet that if a bullet fired from either weapon hit you in the head, you would not care which one it was.

It has already been shown that it was not friendly fire that brought down O'Hare.

Hagel zum Frauleins!


I'm curious, how did they prove it?

Look it up yourself. Use your internet time for a good use.

Hagel zum Harry!
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by Rusty1961 »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




I bet that if a bullet fired from either weapon hit you in the head, you would not care which one it was.

It has already been shown that it was not friendly fire that brought down O'Hare.

Hagel zum Frauleins!


I'm curious, how did they prove it?

Look it up yourself. Use your internet time for a good use.

Hagel zum Harry!


I did, if you bothered to read. Assertions are not proof. I suspect you don't have any proof or you would have provided it.
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by Nikademus »

some things never change. lol.

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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961





I'm curious, how did they prove it?

Look it up yourself. Use your internet time for a good use.

Hagel zum Harry!


I did, if you bothered to read. Assertions are not proof. I suspect you don't have any proof or you would have provided it.

Well, you never provided a link for what you posted so it is just something that you wrote.

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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by Hrafnagud »

You forgot to add this bit from the Wikipedia article you took your quotes from:

"For 54 years there was no definitive answer as to whether he had been brought down by friendly fire or the Japanese bomber's nose gunner. In 1997 the publication of the primary source for this article, Fateful Rendezvous: The Life of Butch O'Hare, by Steve Ewing and John B. Lundstrom (see References below) shed new light. Ewing and Lundstrom very clearly state, more than once, that Japanese guns, and not Kernan's, killed Butch O'Hare.

In Chapter 16, "What Happened to Butch," the authors write, "Butch fell to his old familiar adversary, a Betty. Most likely he died from or was immediately disabled by, a lucky shot from the forward observer crouched in the rikko's [Betty's] forward glassed-in nose...the nose gunner's 7.7mm slugs very likely penetrated Butch's cockpit from above on the port side and ahead of the F6F's armor plate."[42] In the Index, Ewing and Lundstrom flatly state that Kernan is "wrongly accused of shooting down Butch."[43]

Why the confusion for so many years? Ewing and Lundstrom point out that the "most influential and oft-cited" account of O'Hare's last mission came in a 1962 history of the Enterprise by CDR Edward P. Stafford, which relied on action reports and recollections of former Enterprise crew, but did not contain interviews with any of the living participants. By contrast, Ewing and Lundstrom came to their conclusions on what happened to Butch after interviewing the still-living survivors of O'Hare's last mission: F6F pilot Skon, TBF radar officer Rand, and TBF gunner Kernan. Ewing and Lundstrom write, "Through Stafford and other accounts based largely on the action reports, Butch has wrongly become known as one of America's most famous "friendly fire" casualties."[44]
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by tolsdorff »

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by Rusty1961 »

ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud

You forgot to add this bit from the Wikipedia article you took your quotes from:

"For 54 years there was no definitive answer as to whether he had been brought down by friendly fire or the Japanese bomber's nose gunner. In 1997 the publication of the primary source for this article, Fateful Rendezvous: The Life of Butch O'Hare, by Steve Ewing and John B. Lundstrom (see References below) shed new light. Ewing and Lundstrom very clearly state, more than once, that Japanese guns, and not Kernan's, killed Butch O'Hare.

In Chapter 16, "What Happened to Butch," the authors write, "Butch fell to his old familiar adversary, a Betty. Most likely he died from or was immediately disabled by, a lucky shot from the forward observer crouched in the rikko's [Betty's] forward glassed-in nose...the nose gunner's 7.7mm slugs very likely penetrated Butch's cockpit from above on the port side and ahead of the F6F's armor plate."[42] In the Index, Ewing and Lundstrom flatly state that Kernan is "wrongly accused of shooting down Butch."[43]

Why the confusion for so many years? Ewing and Lundstrom point out that the "most influential and oft-cited" account of O'Hare's last mission came in a 1962 history of the Enterprise by CDR Edward P. Stafford, which relied on action reports and recollections of former Enterprise crew, but did not contain interviews with any of the living participants. By contrast, Ewing and Lundstrom came to their conclusions on what happened to Butch after interviewing the still-living survivors of O'Hare's last mission: F6F pilot Skon, TBF radar officer Rand, and TBF gunner Kernan. Ewing and Lundstrom write, "Through Stafford and other accounts based largely on the action reports, Butch has wrongly become known as one of America's most famous "friendly fire" casualties."[44]


Not sure I can find any "proof" in that quote. It was at night, he was in a cross-fire and we have no wreckage or body.

"Statements" in those conditions are not "proof".
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by USSAmerica »

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud

You forgot to add this bit from the Wikipedia article you took your quotes from:

"For 54 years there was no definitive answer as to whether he had been brought down by friendly fire or the Japanese bomber's nose gunner. In 1997 the publication of the primary source for this article, Fateful Rendezvous: The Life of Butch O'Hare, by Steve Ewing and John B. Lundstrom (see References below) shed new light. Ewing and Lundstrom very clearly state, more than once, that Japanese guns, and not Kernan's, killed Butch O'Hare.

In Chapter 16, "What Happened to Butch," the authors write, "Butch fell to his old familiar adversary, a Betty. Most likely he died from or was immediately disabled by, a lucky shot from the forward observer crouched in the rikko's [Betty's] forward glassed-in nose...the nose gunner's 7.7mm slugs very likely penetrated Butch's cockpit from above on the port side and ahead of the F6F's armor plate."[42] In the Index, Ewing and Lundstrom flatly state that Kernan is "wrongly accused of shooting down Butch."[43]

Why the confusion for so many years? Ewing and Lundstrom point out that the "most influential and oft-cited" account of O'Hare's last mission came in a 1962 history of the Enterprise by CDR Edward P. Stafford, which relied on action reports and recollections of former Enterprise crew, but did not contain interviews with any of the living participants. By contrast, Ewing and Lundstrom came to their conclusions on what happened to Butch after interviewing the still-living survivors of O'Hare's last mission: F6F pilot Skon, TBF radar officer Rand, and TBF gunner Kernan. Ewing and Lundstrom write, "Through Stafford and other accounts based largely on the action reports, Butch has wrongly become known as one of America's most famous "friendly fire" casualties."[44]


Not sure I can find any "proof" in that quote. It was at night, he was in a cross-fire and we have no wreckage or body.

"Statements" in those conditions are not "proof".

We're waiting (with baited breath [8|] ) for a single shred of "proof" from you that he was killed by friendly fire. Until then, you can bugger off with your "Make a statement and then demand others provide proof that you are wrong" modus operandi. [>:]
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud

You forgot to add this bit from the Wikipedia article you took your quotes from:

"For 54 years there was no definitive answer as to whether he had been brought down by friendly fire or the Japanese bomber's nose gunner. In 1997 the publication of the primary source for this article, Fateful Rendezvous: The Life of Butch O'Hare, by Steve Ewing and John B. Lundstrom (see References below) shed new light. Ewing and Lundstrom very clearly state, more than once, that Japanese guns, and not Kernan's, killed Butch O'Hare.

In Chapter 16, "What Happened to Butch," the authors write, "Butch fell to his old familiar adversary, a Betty. Most likely he died from or was immediately disabled by, a lucky shot from the forward observer crouched in the rikko's [Betty's] forward glassed-in nose...the nose gunner's 7.7mm slugs very likely penetrated Butch's cockpit from above on the port side and ahead of the F6F's armor plate."[42] In the Index, Ewing and Lundstrom flatly state that Kernan is "wrongly accused of shooting down Butch."[43]

Why the confusion for so many years? Ewing and Lundstrom point out that the "most influential and oft-cited" account of O'Hare's last mission came in a 1962 history of the Enterprise by CDR Edward P. Stafford, which relied on action reports and recollections of former Enterprise crew, but did not contain interviews with any of the living participants. By contrast, Ewing and Lundstrom came to their conclusions on what happened to Butch after interviewing the still-living survivors of O'Hare's last mission: F6F pilot Skon, TBF radar officer Rand, and TBF gunner Kernan. Ewing and Lundstrom write, "Through Stafford and other accounts based largely on the action reports, Butch has wrongly become known as one of America's most famous "friendly fire" casualties."[44]


Not sure I can find any "proof" in that quote. It was at night, he was in a cross-fire and we have no wreckage or body.

"Statements" in those conditions are not "proof".

We're waiting (with baited breath [8|] ) for a single shred of "proof" from you that he was killed by friendly fire. Until then, you can bugger off with your "Make a statement and then demand others provide proof that you are wrong" modus operandi. [>:]

+1
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by Nomad »

Does it really matter if he died from friendly fire or enemy fire? The sad part is that the man died. A lot of people died
from friendly fire, both sides, all countries involved had them.
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Does it really matter if he died from friendly fire or enemy fire? The sad part is that the man died. A lot of people died
from friendly fire, both sides, all countries involved had them.

Not to him or his family no. But for someone to denigrate the USA at around the anniversary of his birth date then yes it does matter - if nothing else, an opportunity to denigrate the US government and/or members thereof.

But the circumstances of friendly fire incidents should be investigated in order to determine the how and whys in order to minimize such incidents in the future.

But blame his death on Japan since they were not invited to Oahu among many other places that 7th of December 1941.
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by Q-Ball »

Slightly OT, but if anyone here is ever stuck in O'Hare Airport for an hour, check out an F4F-3 that is painted to match Butch O'Hare's F4F-3 from battle of Midway! It's very well done; it's in Terminal 2 in an out of the way area, but it's only a 10-15 minute walk from United or American terminals. (This particular plane is one of the many F4Fs that ended up in Lake Michigan off USS Wolverine and her sister)

https://travelforaircraft.wordpress.com ... bit-write/

I live in Chicago and have visited it several times when I have time to kill! (which happens often at ORD)
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by tolsdorff »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

Ok, thanks. He shot them all down in 1 mission it seems? Quite impressive!

I heard of O'Hare airport before, it is quite famous, even in Holland.
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by BBfanboy »

IIRC, Wolverine's sister ship was Sable.
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by Rusty1961 »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.
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RE: "Butch O'hare and the Japanese 7.7mm vs .50 cal

Post by Rusty1961 »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Does it really matter if he died from friendly fire or enemy fire? The sad part is that the man died. A lot of people died
from friendly fire, both sides, all countries involved had them.

Not to him or his family no. But for someone to denigrate the USA at around the anniversary of his birth date then yes it does matter - if nothing else, an opportunity to denigrate the US government and/or members thereof.

But the circumstances of friendly fire incidents should be investigated in order to determine the how and whys in order to minimize such incidents in the future.

But blame his death on Japan since they were not invited to Oahu among many other places that 7th of December 1941.


Given your "neo-nazi" quotes denigrate all those who fought against Nazism that takes balls to say what you say. Shame.
God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal.
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